Titles (Bishop, Overseer, Apostle, etc.)

[B3Wannabe]

I've heard one definition as "one who builds/organizes churches". I agree with that definition.

If that is truly the case then why is title Apostle higher than that of Bishop.  From the definition of the office of Bishop that I am used to even in that of the Apostolic church is that a Bishop is the overseer of many churches.  If an Apostle builds them then the Bishop oversees.  How can there be Bishops in organizations where there are no Apostles?

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[ladybass]

Question: Does the five-fold ministry really have five gifts? I was taught it was five gifts but if you read carefully you will notice that every separate gift has "and some...." but the Pastor-Teacher does not. Is Pastor and Teacher two separate gifts or one gift? I do understand that some are called to just being a teacher. What y'all think?

I pray these scriptures clear things up for ya.  

Eph 4:
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1 Tim 2:17 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Tim. 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

1 Cor. 12:
 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[kadman92]

keep bringin the word my sista.....

I love hearing from folk that come from Ministries that know and operate in the Gifts.

I thank God every day that he chose to call me to him in an Acts 2:38, Holy Ghost filled, we don't just preach we experience it church.  We had Baptism's at least 6 times a year and prayed people through to the Baptism of the Spirit at least every other service.  Runaway's were common place and someone was alway gettin slain in the spirit.  

I want to be part of a church like that again so much.  If any of yall know of a church like that New Jersey let it be known.

[Jmanley1116]

I've heard one definition as "one who builds/organizes churches". I agree with that definition.

If that is truly the case then why is title Apostle higher than that of Bishop.  From the definition of the office of Bishop that I am used to even in that of the Apostolic church is that a Bishop is the overseer of many churches.  If an Apostle builds them then the Bishop oversees.  How can there be Bishops in organizations where there are no Apostles?

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I am trying to say that the definition that you agree with, in my opinion, cannot be justified if there is an organization that has Bishops and no Apostles.  In my previous post the Office of Bishop as it is today is given when one is the Overseer of many churches many of which are birthed from your own ministry.  If that is the case how can one be a Bishop before being an Apostle.  It should be the other way around.  An Apostle before a Bishop.  

Nothing really to debate over....I am sure that each organization gives offices according to very different rule sets.  Again, in my opinion it should go:

1. Minister
2. Elder
3. Pastor
4. Apostle
5. Bishop

But I have seen it go:

1. Minister
2. Pastor
3. Elder
4. Bishop
5. Apostle

The Bible says that in all thy getting get an understanding...but I don't know if I will understand this stuff........at least according to the definitions that I am given.

[b3maniac]

I definately don't believe that Paul was the last Apostle! I believe that God has true Apostles today. None of the 5 ministries has came to an end and God has someone operating in all 5 areas today. Thats the only way that the church will be perfected. Even though it may be hard for some to believe, there are scores of villages, and towns in other parts of the world that has never even heard of Jesus, so there is still alot more to build on. The foundation that was laid did not end the work, we are still building onto that foundation. The foundation is Jesus Christ and that foundation (Jesus) has to be laid in variuos parts of the world.

[Spiritfingers]

Jmanley...

Praise the Lord bro...I'm of the school that Lady is from...You have to do some research bro.  Bishop was adopted by from the Catholic church and a title for overseers.  Look up the word bishop in your concordance and you will see in most scriptures in the New Testament...Bishop is simular to Deacon.  Bible Deacon and Bishops had the same function.  Proper rules of interpretation are the key to quality bible study.  If you're really interested you should enroll in some type of Bible college where they teach a good course on Hermeneutics.  

One more thing about interpretations...Bishops and Deacons in those had somewhat of a pastoral role because churches as we know it were'nt established.  They were more like home bible studies or what some would call cell ministry.

[Jmanley1116]

Jmanley...

Praise the Lord bro...I'm of the school that Lady is from...You have to do some research bro.  Bishop was adopted by from the Catholic church and a title for overseers.  Look up the word bishop in your concordance and you will see in most scriptures in the New Testament...Bishop is simular to Deacon.  Bible Deacon and Bishops had the same function.  Proper rules of interpretation are the key to quality bible study.  If you're really interested you should enroll in some type of Bible college where they teach a good course on Hermeneutics.  

One more thing about interpretations...Bishops and Deacons in those had somewhat of a pastoral role because churches as we know it were'nt established.  They were more like home bible studies or what some would call cell ministry.

I fully understand the New Testament definition of Bishop.  I refered to it in an earlier post that they are similar.  Deacon (Diakonos) and Bishop ( Episkop or Episkopos) are similar as far as qualification as explained in Titus but what they do in the body is actually different.  Deacons are appointed.  The Apostles were told to pick out men among them that would be able to tend to the everyday church functions (i.e. deal with the people, make sure that they had food...etc.) while the Apostles ministered.  The Bishop in the NT is like unto the Pastor of a church.  He is in charge of dealing with the church spiritually and overseeing.  Apostles like Paul went around setting up churches and then left deacons and Bishops to tend to the church after he was gone.  

So, my understanding of this subject is very on point...but thanks for caring.

[boyam]

I thinkk one can see why there are different titles among the denominations just by the differences in opinion and interpretation in this thread.  There are some churchs that use the title apostle while other churchs don't use it as a title.  My church doesn't use the title because the Bible gives evidence that the number of apostles (12) was fixed.  Matt. 19:28

Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev. 21:14

The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles 11 of the Lamb.

This is probably why the title isn't used in some denominations.  IMO some churches look at it this way.  The Bible has been written, there hasn't been anything added to it.  Which makes it the definite word of God.  Jesus and the Apostles did their job of spreading the gospel and creating the church.  Bishops (elders) and deacons were left behind to do thier respective duties.  Thus the titles of bishop and deacon are used today, while the apostle title has been reserved for the 12 that followed Jesus Christ.  

Those churchs who are not of the episcopalian structure do sometimes use the apostle title and use it synonomously to the Bishop or Elder title.  I would think that the rational behind using the title is from the Greek meaning of the word apostle "to send" or to preach or give the Word of God.  

This thread has been very enlightening for me.  I have learned a lot from everything that was said.  

Remember, dont' get caught up in who's right and who's wrong because we don't know.  It's all about interpretations and beliefs on the church government structure.  As long as we all know there is only One God who had only One son who gave his life for our sins, and that there are many forms of church government which we should all respect we all we be just fine.

God Bless!

[Vangelist]

The scriptures given by ladybass are exactly right. There are others, but I dont have them right now. The bottom line is that the Word of God gives the guidelines for everything that should take place in the church especially the authoritative aspect. If you hold any title you should know the backgroud of what it takes to be placed in that position. If God doesn't move you, then you don't move.

And to  try to answer mr layback's question: Yes, there can be apostles in fact there should be apostles. For all of the churches that pop up every year, I hope there are apostles. Afterall, the job of an apostle is to get the church started, make a foundation for the church to start with just like the 12 apostles of Jesus.

[temejo1]

Speaking from a secular and legal point of view, any one who starts (founders) a church can call himself or herself a bishop, as long as it is not part of an existing denomination.  For instance, if I start the New Greater Missionary Baptist Church of God and Christ (I didn't say "in")...I can be Bishop Terri Johnson over the church and start my own denomination...legally!  In that, I can bring up churches in that MBCOGAC and be recognized as such.  This is just an example of how the legal system works.