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Offline T-Block

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A neat trick....
« on: February 03, 2006, 07:00:20 PM »
Hey everybody, I just want to share a neat little trick I picked up when going up a 4th.  Not necessarily for modulation, but just to get from one chord to another chord that is a 4th away.  This illustration should make it more clearer:

C / G-C-E
D / A-C-F
D# / A-C-D#-F#
E / C-E-G
F / C-F-A

I mainly use this technique when going from 1 to 4, or from 6 to 2.  I hope someone can use this to enhance there playing.  It sure has helped me out a lot when trying to come up with alternative ways to play.
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Offline ddw4e

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A neat trick....
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 08:12:11 PM »
That diminished chord always get you out of situations!  :D
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Offline sjonathan02

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A neat trick....
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 09:37:35 PM »
Looking at this progression from left to right, I can't see how it works from the 6 to the 2.

It looks like the right is playing inversions of major chords (with the exception of the dim chord over D#)

How does that translate going from A to D in the key of C?
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Offline T-Block

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A neat trick....
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2006, 08:44:30 AM »
I'll give yall an example of how this trick can be used to go from 6 to 2 using the song "Thank You Lord":

Key Eb  LH/RH

D / C-F-Ab Thank
G / Bb-Eb-F-Bb You
C / Bb-D-F Lord
C / G-C-E
D / A-C-F
D# / A-C-D#-F#
E / C-E-G

F / C-F-Ab I
G / Bb-Eb-G just
Ab / Ab-C-F want to
F / A-C-Eb-G Thank
Bb / Ab-Bb-Eb-F You-
Bb / Ab-Bb-D-F ou
/ Eb Lord
Ab / G-C-Eb
G / F-Bb-D
F / Ab-C-Eb
Eb / F-G-Bb-Eb

Here it is in C for you sjonathan02:

B / A-D-F Thank
E / G#-C-G-G You
A / G-B-D Lord
A / E-A-C#
B / F#-A-D
C / F#-A-C-D#
C# / A-C#-E

D / A-D-F I
E / G-C-E just
F / F-A-D want to
D / F#-A-C-E Thank
G / F-G-C-D You-
G / F-G-B-D ou
/ C Lord
F / E-A-C
E / D-G-B
D / F-A-C
C / D-E-G-C

You see, the trick itself is completely out of the key of the song if you going from 6 to 2.  It sort of gives you the feeling of modulation, then at the end of the trick you back into the song.  It's almost like a deceptive cadence where you think you going one way, but you go somewhere else. John P. Kee uses this a lot in his songs.

Here is another example of the trick this time going from 1 to 4.  I'll use part of the song "Order My Steps":

Key C LH/RH

D / F-A-D Or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / G-C-E Word
D / A-C-F
D# / A-C-D#-F#
E / C-E-G
F# / E-G#-A#-C please
F / F-A-D or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / E-G-C Word

You see that? In this case, the trick falls in the key.  I hope this makes it clearer for everybody.  I'll be back later to post the theory using numbers.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline ddw4e

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A neat trick....
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2006, 10:00:49 AM »
Quote from: sjonathan02
Looking at this progression from left to right, I can't see how it works from the 6 to the 2.

It looks like the right is playing inversions of major chords (with the exception of the dim chord over D#)

How does that translate going from A to D in the key of C?


YOu can look at it as the 6 to 2 in Eb.
MERCY EN!!

Offline sjonathan02

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A neat trick....
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2006, 01:29:29 PM »
Quote from: T-Block
I'll give yall an example of how this trick can be used to go from 6 to 2 using the song "Thank You Lord":

Key Eb  LH/RH

D / C-F-Ab Thank
G / Bb-Eb-F-Bb You
C / Bb-D-F Lord
C / G-C-E
D / A-C-F
D# / A-C-D#-F#
E / C-E-G

F / C-F-Ab I
G / Bb-Eb-G just
Ab / Ab-C-F want to
F / A-C-Eb-G Thank
Bb / Ab-Bb-Eb-F You-
Bb / Ab-Bb-D-F ou
/ Eb Lord
Ab / G-C-Eb
G / F-Bb-D
F / Ab-C-Eb
Eb / F-G-Bb-Eb

Here it is in C for you sjonathan02:

B / A-D-F Thank
E / G#-C-G-G You
A / G-B-D Lord
A / E-A-C#
B / F#-A-D
C / F#-A-C-D#
C# / A-C#-E

D / A-D-F I
E / G-C-E just
F / F-A-D want to
D / F#-A-C-E Thank
G / F-G-C-D You-
G / F-G-B-D ou
/ C Lord
F / E-A-C
E / D-G-B
D / F-A-C
C / D-E-G-C

You see, the trick itself is completely out of the key of the song if you going from 6 to 2.  It sort of gives you the feeling of modulation, then at the end of the trick you back into the song.  It's almost like a deceptive cadence where you think you going one way, but you go somewhere else. John P. Kee uses this a lot in his songs.

Here is another example of the trick this time going from 1 to 4.  I'll use part of the song "Order My Steps":

Key C LH/RH

D / F-A-D Or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / G-C-E Word
D / A-C-F
D# / A-C-D#-F#
E / C-E-G
F# / E-G#-A#-C please
F / F-A-D or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / E-G-C Word

You see that? In this case, the trick falls in the key.  I hope this makes it clearer for everybody.  I'll be back later to post the theory using numbers.


T-Block, I think I'm beginning to put the pieces together, it's a walk-up of sorts, yes?

DDE,

Can you make a midi of these examples for me? I would be so thankful.
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Offline ddw4e

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A neat trick....
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2006, 03:41:48 PM »
Here you go..

A Nice Trick
MERCY EN!!

Offline sjonathan02

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A neat trick....
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2006, 05:22:02 PM »
Quote from: ddw4e
Here you go..

A Nice Trick



Dude, you is da bestest in da world. Tanks, man!!  :D
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Offline ddw4e

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A neat trick....
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2006, 07:50:04 PM »
LOL!! It could had been better but I was tired when I did it and a little bit under the weather..LOL!
MERCY EN!!

Offline T-Block

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A neat trick....
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2006, 12:31:58 AM »
sjonathan02 wrote:

Quote
T-Block, I think I'm beginning to put the pieces together, it's a walk-up of sorts, yes?


Yeah, i guess it is sort of a walk-up.  Here is the theory on this neat little trick.  It can be done regardless of what key the song is in:

The first chord is a 1 major chord with the root in the bass.  The RH part can be in any inversion:

C / G-C-E  (C major, root in the bass, RH part in 2nd inversion)

The second chord is a 2 minor 7th chord with the root in the bass.  The RH part can be in any inversion:

D / A-C-F (Dm7, root in the bass, RH part in 1st inversion)

The third chord is a #2 diminished 7th chord with the root in the bass.  The RH part can be in any inversion:

D# / A-C-D#-F# (D#dim7, root in the bass, RH part in 2nd inversion)

The last chord is a 1 major chord with the 3rd in the bass.  The RH part can be in any inversion:

E / C-E-G (C major, 3rd in the bass, RH part in root position)

Does that make more sense for everybody? I hope so.


Good job doing the midi D!!!
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Offline ddw4e

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A neat trick....
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2006, 10:16:21 PM »
Quote from: T-Block
Good job doing the midi D!!!


No problem doc!  :)
MERCY EN!!

Offline B3Wannabe

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A neat trick....
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2006, 08:00:40 AM »
Sweet.


You know, right at the end of the midi, you did this:


Gb-Bb-C-F \ Ab


Just before you play that chord, you can throw an F Phrygian scale (Db major, starting on F) in there.

F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F (UP)
(DOWN) Eb, Db, C, Bb, A

....then hit that Ab you did, while holding that A.

Offline gtsjames

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A neat trick....
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2006, 09:32:32 AM »
Quote from: T-Block


Here is another example of the trick this time going from 1 to 4.  I'll use part of the song "Order My Steps":

Key C LH/RH

D / F-A-D Or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / G-C-E Word
D / A-C-F
D# / A-C-D#-F#
E / C-E-G
F# / E-G#-A#-C please
F / F-A-D or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / E-G-C Word

You see that? In this case, the trick falls in the key.  I hope this makes it clearer for everybody.  I'll be back later to post the theory using numbers.

Quick question about this chord "F# / E-G#-A#-C" how does this one fit into the theory section that you explained? I see the 1 and then the 2 and then the diminished and then the 3 and then this looks like another diminished chord maybe?? and then to the 4. In the other examples you go straight from the 3 to the 4. Is this another way to do it, or just how this particular song goes?

Offline sjonathan02

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A neat trick....
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2006, 10:48:55 AM »
Quote from: gtsjames
Quote from: T-Block


Here is another example of the trick this time going from 1 to 4.  I'll use part of the song "Order My Steps":

Key C LH/RH

D / F-A-D Or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / G-C-E Word
D / A-C-F
D# / A-C-D#-F#
E / C-E-G
F# / E-G#-A#-C please
F / F-A-D or-
/ D der
/ E my
G / F-A-D ste-
/ C eps
/ A in
/ C Your
C / E-G-C Word

You see that? In this case, the trick falls in the key.  I hope this makes it clearer for everybody.  I'll be back later to post the theory using numbers.

Quick question about this chord "F# / E-G#-A#-C" how does this one fit into the theory section that you explained? I see the 1 and then the 2 and then the diminished and then the 3 and then this looks like another diminished chord maybe?? and then to the 4. In the other examples you go straight from the 3 to the 4. Is this another way to do it, or just how this particular song goes?



If I'm correct, it's how the song goes.
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Offline ddw4e

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A neat trick....
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2006, 05:05:28 PM »
Quote from: B3Wannabe
Sweet.


You know, right at the end of the midi, you did this:


Gb-Bb-C-F \ Ab


Just before you play that chord, you can throw an F Phrygian scale (Db major, starting on F) in there.

F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F (UP)
(DOWN) Eb, Db, C, Bb, A

....then hit that Ab you did, while holding that A.


Cool...I will check that out tonight. Thanks
MERCY EN!!

Offline T-Block

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A neat trick....
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2006, 07:54:43 PM »
gtsjames wrote:

Quote
Quick question about this chord "F# / E-G#-A#-C" how does this one fit into the theory section that you explained? I see the 1 and then the 2 and then the diminished and then the 3 and then this looks like another diminished chord maybe?? and then to the 4. In the other examples you go straight from the 3 to the 4. Is this another way to do it, or just how this particular song goes?


That's just how the song goes.  Anyways, it goes to the 4 chord next so the trick is still in tact.  There are a variety of ways to apply it.  It won't always be a set way to do it.  I just gave the basic format of it.  Like B3 metioned earlier, u can add stuff in between, before, or after the trick to give it some of your own flavor and style.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline jlewis

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A neat trick....
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2006, 08:15:19 PM »
Ok that does it.


I need someone to explain to me in plain english the trick to modes.

For example,  B3  mentioned F phyrigian ( Db scale starting on F)

To me I don't understand a mode without knowing what key you are in.


so for example  would E phyrigian be ( c scale starting on E)

would G phyrigian be  ( Eb scale  starting on G)


Basically what is the base scale (key signature ) for  each mode?

so for example what is  F Dorian, or F mixlodyian?   do anybody understand  what I am talking about?


Here is another example ( if I run a c scale starting starting and ending on G, what mode am in in?)

Better yet, if I run  any major key scale ( starting and ending on the 5) what mode am I in?


like this

major key scale  ( start and end on the 1) --> (major scale, what mode)
major key scale  ( start and end on the 2)
major key scale  ( start and end on the 3) --> is this phyrigian?
major key scale  ( start and end on the 4)
major key scale  ( start and end on the 5)
major key scale  ( start and end on the 6) --> (minor scale what mode?)
major key scale  ( start and end on the 7)


do modes only apply to major scales, what about blues scales, or half diminished scales, .....

Help a brother out, I'm halfway there and getting lost in the forest


jlewis

Offline T-Block

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A neat trick....
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2006, 09:21:54 PM »
There are 7 modes altogether.  Each mode name signifies what degree of the major scale it starts on.  Here they are w/examples in C:

1. Ionian / Major mode - This is just the major scale.  It starts on the 1st degree of the key you are in:  C D E F G A B C

2. Dorian mode - This mode starts on the 2nd degree of the key you are in.  So, if someone says play _ dorian mode, count back 1 whole step to find the key:  D E F G A B C D

3. Phrygian mode - This mode starts on the 3rd degree of the key you are in.  So, if someone says play _ phrigian mode, count back 2 whole steps to find the key:  E F G A B C D E

4. Lydian mode - This mode starts on the 4th degree of the key you are in.  So, if someone says play _ lydian mode, count back 2 1/2 steps to find the key:  F G A B C D E F

5. Mixolydian mode - This mode starts on the 5th degree of the key you are in.  So, if someone says play _ mixolydian mode, count back or up 3 1/2 steps to find the key:  G A B C D E F G

6. Aeolian / Minor mode - This is the relative minor scale.  This mode starts on the 6th degree of the key you are in.  So, if someone says play _ aeolian / minor mode, count back 4 1/2 steps or up 1 1/2 steps to find the key:  A B C D E F G A

7. Locrian mode - This mode starts on the 7th degree of the key you are in.  So, if someone says play _ locrian mode, count back 5 1/2 steps or up 1/2 step to find the key:  B C D E F G A B

Also, check out the formula for the major scale: _W_W_H_W_W_W_H_  Now go back and read through the explanations of each mode and try to connect it to the pattern for major scales.  Hint: Look at the bold phrases

Are you making the connection now?  Let's answer some of your questions
jlewis:

Quote
so for example would E phyrigian be ( c scale starting on E)


Yes, that is correct.  The phrygian mode starts on the 3rd scale degree of the major scale, and E is the 3rd scale degree in the key of C major.  So, you are correct.

Quote
would G phyrigian be ( Eb scale starting on G)


Also correct for the same explaination above.

Quote
Basically what is the base scale (key signature ) for each mode?


The key signature for each mode is the same key signature as the major scale it comes from.

Quote
so for example what is F Dorian, or F mixlodyian? do anybody understand what I am talking about?


Since the dorian mode starts on the 2nd degree of the major scale, take F and count back 1 whole step to find it's major, Eb.  F Dorian is the Eb major scale starting and ending on F:  F G Ab Bb C D Eb F

Since the mixolydian mode starts on the 5th degree of the major scale, take F and count back or up 3 1/2 steps to find it's major, Bb.  F mixolydian is the Bb major scale staring and ending on F:  F G A Bb C D Eb F

Quote
Here is another example ( if I run a c scale starting starting and ending on G, what mode am in in?)


Ask yourself this, what scale degree is G in the key of C.  It is the 5th scale degree in the key of C.  So, we check our list and we find which mode starts on the 5th scale degree.  Aha, mixolydian mode starts ont the 5th scale degree.  So, thats your answer, mixolydian mode.

Quote
Better yet, if I run any major key scale ( starting and ending on the 5) what mode am I in?


Mixolydian mode

Quote
do modes only apply to major scales, what about blues scales, or half diminished scales, .....


I believe modes only apply to major scales.  Not 100% sure, but I am about 95% sure it only applies to major scales.  Maybe some other theory scholars can back me up on this.

I hope I have answered all your questions and I hope you have a clearer understanding of modes.
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Offline Joey247

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A neat trick....
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2006, 11:27:12 PM »
:D Wow, Nice break down there T-Block. Thanks man.
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Offline jlewis

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A neat trick....
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2006, 12:45:48 AM »
Thats why I come to this web site, every now and then, one of yall folks drops some major knowledge on a bruh.

I got it and understand it loud and clear.  

turns out I been doing this all along but I didn't know the names of the modes, I was just riffing around  the key signature depending on what chord I was playing within the scale degree.

Thanks T.


now, somebody holla at me and let me know how these jazz cats riff OUTSIDE the key signature. Are they using modes as well ?
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