Topic: Scales, Modes, and Positions I Need Help (Read 2170 times)

MoeBass6 · « **on:** June 12, 2006, 04:40:44 PM »

What Up Everybody

Can someone please help me understand what are the differences between the three because I quess I am getting scales and modes confused. If I can please get some help in the explanation of the three, what are modes, scales, and positions and how do the work with each other. Any and all help thanks in advance.

God Bless

jeremyr · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2006, 05:54:46 PM »

a scale is a set of musical notes that provides material for part or all of a musical work. Scales are typically ordered in pitch, with their ordering providing a measure of musical distance. Scales differ from modes in that scales do not have a primary or "tonic" pitch. Thus a single scale can have many different modes, depending on which of its notes is chosen as primary.

a mode is a scale that is derived from the the tone in a another(parent) scale.

the position is just where you play them at on the neck of your bass

MoeBass6 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2006, 08:24:49 PM »

Yeah I'm trying to understand but you are still above my head for the level that I am at. As an example I e-mailed ladybass earlier today and I told here that if I were told to use the Dorian scale I would have to think about were it would be or I would still have to use my cheat sheet. Am I confusing one with the other or can you help make it a little more plain for me to understand. Still need help ! ! !

BassMan2000 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2006, 09:34:47 PM »

You are in the Key of C

C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

If you were told to use the dorian mode which is the 2 mode of the Ionian ( Major )
You would start on D

THE MAJOR SCALE & ITS MODES

Mode Name Construction
Mode 1 Ionian (Major Scale) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mode 2 Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Mode 3 Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Mode 4 Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mode 5 Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Mode 6 Aeolian (Natural Minor) 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Mode 7 Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

MoeBass6 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2006, 12:17:18 AM »

O.K. it's starting to make some sense does it matter what scale I'm in, do the same rules apply.

uriahsmusic · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2006, 07:27:21 AM »

......

OK...LETS START A LITTLE FURTHER BACK!.....SCALES...MODES POSITIONS....BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...

FIRST CAME THE MUSIC....AND THEN IT WAS ORGANIZED SO THAT IT COUD BE UNDERSTOOD AND DISCUSSED AND EVEN DOCUMENTED.

IF YOU PICK UP A RUBERBAND AND STRETCH IT....THEN PLUCK IT YOU WILL FIND THAT YOU HEAR A NOTE!...WOW!

AS YOU STETCH IT YOU WILL HEAR DIFFERENT NOTES SOUNDING BUT THEY DONT SOUND LIKE THE MUSIC THAT YOU NORMALLY HEAR!

IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD..(WESTERN WORLD)...SOME PEOPLE LONG AGO DIVIDED THE MUSICAL SECTRUM INTO SCALES. REMEMBER...THAT RUBBERBAND?...IT HAS MANY MORE NOTES THAN ARE IN WESTERN SCALES!

STILL...FOR THE PURPOSE OF PLAYING WESTERN HEMISPHERE MUSIC...THIS ORGANIZED SET OF NOTES IS WHAT WE GENERALLY ADHERE TO...

SO...THERE ARE 12 POSSIBLE NOTES THAT YOU CAN PLAY.....AND FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEING ORGANIZED INTO A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE....EACH GROUP OF ORGANIZED NOTES HAVE BEEN GIVEN A NAME.....

SO...YOU HAVE THESE 12 POSSIBLE NOTES THAT YOU CAN CHOOSE FROM AND HAVE BEEN GIVEN AN ORDER!

SO LETS JUST THINK OF A SCALE OR A MODE..AS A SET OF NOTES THAT SOUND A CERTAIN WAY! EACH SET OF NOTES WHEN PLAYED IN SEGUENCE HAVE A CERTIAN UNIQUE QUALITY TO THEM.

PEOPLE HAVE BECOME USED TO HEARING CERTIAN SEQUENCES OF NOTES PLAYE TOGETHER...SO IF YOU PLAY A MAJOR CHORD...BUT THEN PLAY THE MINOR SCALE TO IT...SOME NOTES MAY CLASH!..(THE 3RD) FOR EXAMPLE...

SO GENERALY IF YOU ARE IN THE KEY OF C MAJOR...AND YOU PLAY THE C MAJOR SCALE...(DUH)...EVERYTHING SHOULD WORK OUT JUST FINE....

BUT WHAT IF YOU PLAYED THE E MAJOR SCALE TO A SONG IN C MAJOR?.....WOWZER.....!!!

IT IS STILL MUSICAL...BUT NOT QUITE BY THE "NORMAL" RULES!!!!

THIS IS WHERE MODES COME IT...OR WHAT IS CALLED MODAL MUSIC....

SOME OF IT SOUNDS ODD BECAUSE YOU ARE APPLYING PATTERNS OF NOTES TO WHAT IS NORMALLY OUT SIDE OF THE GENNERALL ACCEPTED RULE.

MODES ARE JUST A DIFFERENT SET OF ORGANIZED NOTES....CUZ SOME FOLKS NEED TO NAME STUFF!

THEN THERES JAZZ!....EVERYONES EXCUSE FOR NOT DEALING WITH MODES OR SCALES!

chrismc101 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2006, 08:57:49 AM »

OK, somebody slap me if I'm wrong, LOL...

But going by BassMan2000 breakdown of: THE MAJOR SCALE & ITS MODES

If I'm in the key of C, would all the Modes look like this:

1 C D E F G A B C
2 C D Eb F G A Bb C
3 C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
4 C D E F# G A B C
5 C D E F G A Bb C
6 C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
7 C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Or am I just totally lost?

jeremyr · « **Reply #7 on:** June 13, 2006, 10:05:19 AM »

Quote from: chrismc101 on June 13, 2006, 08:57:49 AM

OK, somebody slap me if I'm wrong, LOL...

But going by BassMan2000 breakdown of: THE MAJOR SCALE & ITS MODES

If I'm in the key of C, would all the Modes look like this:

1 C D E F G A B C
2 C D Eb F G A Bb C
3 C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
4 C D E F# G A B C
5 C D E F G A Bb C
6 C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
7 C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

That is correct. You are not lost. Now all you need to do is know what name corresponds with what pattern and you're all set

chrismc101 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2006, 11:24:53 AM »

Cool, now I know that I have learned something today. I can't wait to get home & get on my bass. Thanks a bunch....

djgroovin · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2006, 01:08:27 PM »

Quote

OK, somebody slap me if I'm wrong, LOL...

But going by BassMan2000 breakdown of: THE MAJOR SCALE & ITS MODES

If I'm in the key of C, would all the Modes look like this:

1 C D E F G A B C
2 C D Eb F G A Bb C
3 C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
4 C D E F# G A B C
5 C D E F G A Bb C
6 C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
7 C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Or am I just totally lost?

Not exactly...I don't want to confuse you further but I don't want you to have wrong info.
In the "Key of C", only the first one is right. The second mode (dorian)starts on D and goes through the same notes up to D at the next octave. Then the next mode (phrygian)

Quote

starts

on E and so forth. All of these modes are in the same key just starting at a different place.

FYI...Playing the notes up the scale is called "diatonic" movement.

Da Man · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2006, 01:43:06 PM »

Quote

1 C D E F G A B C
2 C D Eb F G A Bb C
3 C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
4 C D E F# G A B C
5 C D E F G A Bb C
6 C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
7 C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

djgroovin,

You're right. These are basically modes from 7 different keys. If these were all from the key of C, we should see no accidentals, considering all the notes being from the same key.

So, to show these correctly, you'd have to march down the scale. C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, G Mixo, etc.

With that said, a D dorian is in the key of C; a C dorian is in the key of B flat.

Da Man

MoeBass6 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2006, 02:16:55 PM »

So when I move to the D as the next note in the scale do I play it in the same patteren or do follow the corresponding scale patteren. Example do I play the D in the same patttern as the C, or do I play the C scale in it"s pattern. Just want to make sure that I truly understand so I can move to the next level.

Torch7 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2006, 02:46:01 PM »

Quote from: MoeBass6 on June 13, 2006, 02:16:55 PM

So when I move to the D as the next note in the scale do I play it in the same patteren or do follow the corresponding scale patteren. Example do I play the D in the same patttern as the C, or do I play the C scale in it"s pattern. Just want to make sure that I truly understand so I can move to the next level.

Working in the key of C, you would play C in the ionian mode pattern with C being the root, if the song progresses to D, you would then use the dorian mode pattern with D being the root.

So if you playing in the Key of C:

You have C D E F G A B C

-----|-----|------|----|----|----|----|
--6-|-----|--7--|--8-|----|----|----|
-3--|--4--|-----|--5-|----|----|----|
-----|--1--|-----|-2--|----|----|----|

1 = C, 2 = D, 3=E, 4= F, 5 = G, 6= A, 7 = B, 8 = c,

Then if you move to D to get the same combination of notes you have to alter the 3rd, by flatting it. If not the 3 position would be F# instead of F.

So you move the scale to the second note which is the D, and repeat the IONION scale except flatting the 3rd.

The Dorian Mode now in red and in parenthesis

-----|------------|----------|----------|---------|---------------|--------|
--6-|------------|--7-(6)-|--8-(7)--|---------|----( 8 )------|--------|
-3--|--4(3b)--|-----------|--5(4)--|---------|----(5) ------|--------|
-----|--1--------|-----------|-2(1)---|---------|--(2)--------|--------|

Now:
1 = D ; 2 =E; 3 = F; 4 = G; 5 = A; 6 = B; 7 = C; 8 = d

I hope this helps I realize the image and frets are gonna come out a bit jacked...

Torch7 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2006, 02:52:04 PM »

Sorry Dorian Mode you also flat the 7th. Don't have the ability to edit.. my original post so you have to use your imagination...

just think of it as a means to get the same avaliable notes in a key in a different pattern.

MoeBass6 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2006, 03:42:48 PM »

O.K. I think I,m with you so far but can you skip around if you want to Ex. if I am in the key of C and I move to the D Ionian, but instead could I move to the Dorian orPhrygian. Just want to know how I can move around the neck. And if so are there any little tricks that anyone have come up with to help remember what name goes with what scale. I know alot of practice is the key which I do but I just can't seem to remember. If I take the time and not in a situation where I need to know really fast I can find and remember them, just want to get better and not fustrated. I'm printing all this info out so I can use for reference when practicing, so keep the knowledge coming it is greatly appreciated hopefully I will be abe to help someone oneday. To God be the glory.

Torch7 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2006, 05:06:33 PM »

C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)

D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode

E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode

F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode

G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode

A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)

B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode

Keep in Mind that modes are played in a certain key just starting with a different note... So when you move from C to D, you are not changing keys, 2nd tone in the key is being emphasized.
So in our example there is no D- Ionian. Playing D in the Ionian mode would give you a different set of notes and change the song.

Each mode makes a pattern on the fretboard, I haven't committed them all to memory so we are more than likely in the same boat...
http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/chapter_select.php?chapter=010 has all the modes in a diagram commit the diagram to memory. You want to eventually be at the place where you can
just play without thinking.

I relate it to me learning how to type, I took typing in 7th grade and almost failed, although I knew exactly how to read and right, and speak for that matter, but over time as I familiarized myself with different patterns on the keyboard, I can now type close to 70 words per minute. I type without even thinking about it really. So we learn all this stuff to essentially not to think about it.

I kind of take exception to modes are typically taught... First you are taught C Major scale, then you are told about all these modes that derive from the C major scale... It makes absolutely no sense to someone trying to learn how to make sense of how music works. Then you are told practice, practice, practice... I know one thing once I get a grasp of how all this theory works... I am gonna sit down and revamp, the way theory is taught and right a book.

MoeBass6 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2006, 07:21:58 PM »

WOW yall just blow me away with the knowledge that you have been able to share with me and I appreciate every bit of it. I am still at work but can't wait to get home to practice. I try to practice a minimum of at least an hour and a half everyday sometimes I'll get in more (no kids). So I assure you that your time and effort that you all have put into getting this information was not a waste of time. Thank you and God Bless.

P.S. Feel free to hit me at moebassgrind6@hotmail.com I'm always looking for info to help better my skillz.

Torch7 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2006, 07:42:00 PM »

Hey MoeBass6

Don't mention it, patience is key, I have been at this for a little over a year, and feel like I spinned my wheels for about 6 months... things are gradually beginning to settle in. I struggle more than I succeed, but i just keep hacking away at it.

ladybass · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2006, 08:53:16 PM »

Quote from: Torch7 on June 13, 2006, 05:06:33 PM

Each mode makes a pattern on the fretboard, I haven't committed them all to memory so we are more than likely in the same boat...
http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/chapter_select.php?chapter=010 has all the modes in a diagram commit the diagram to memory. You want to eventually be at the place where you can
just play without thinking.

Here's the full chart from Wheat's bass book

My old teacher had me use this book. I'm sorry we didn't get to the modes before I stopped going to him.

chrismc101 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2006, 10:01:05 AM »

djgroovin, thanks for the correction. I didn't think something was right when I got home & got on my bass. LOL.. But now I see what you mean. What ever key you start in. When you move to the next mode or whatever mode; you chose the key that goes with that position. I got it now. Thanks a bunch.

Author Topic: Scales, Modes, and Positions I Need Help (Read 2170 times)

MoeBass6

MoeBass6

MoeBass6

Da Man

MoeBass6

MoeBass6

MoeBass6