What have happened to bass players?What is your definition for a bass player?

[cleveakabig]

bass players are off the charts now. Being a bass player today from 30 years back has change so much. Do you think todays bass playing is good or bad? I will say bad in so many ways.

Today bass players are more show offs alone with drummers. I hear so many of them mostly on church songs trying to out shine and walk over so many great singers.

When you got a great voice or singer out front. The drummer should take the volume down and let that lead singer shine, see that word LEAD SINGER?

Also today bass Riff are way off the charts for what reason? To over shine the lead and position the bass as lead.

Tip. For todays bass player from an old bass player out of the 60's. The old bass players are better than today players.
Reason is this, they came up with basic and simple power chords and tunes.

Other words, not everyone got an ear for music and can hear progressions,fast riffs,tones and harmonics the trained ear can hear.

So you can play as fast riffs and use all the harmonics you like you and a few others can hear it but other can't.

Another way to think about it or look at it. Can anyone hum what Jaco or Wooden play or can you? If they can't hear or understand what you're playing to hum it, how can they like it?

I'm going to end here with this,go and listen to the old group Kc and the shineshine band bass player lines,they are simple line. That anyone can hum.

So when making your bass line try to come up with jingle type bass lines,don't over do it because you're not lead. You time to shine is when the lead singer is silent.
Do not follow the drummer all the time,some songs the drummer need to follow the bass.
Please post  your thoughts

[Willie L. Terry Jr]

WoW...I ain't even touching that!

Willie T

[grouchojohn]

Where did that come from?  Please explain your point, so we can offer some Godly input.

[BassMan2000]

You are correct. 

The problem is most Gospel Bass Players don't know when to place a riff.
Some play riffs during the entire song. I was doing a concert and we were the second band to play before
the Group we open for.  The first group bass player played deep the hold set. So! you really could not hear
him. I could, but I'm a Bass Player.  The Head liner bass player was killing the bass, but his style was too busy and you could
not get the feel or timming. 

My Uncle was old school and he showed me were and when to run a riff, when to hold down the low end.

I like to show off too, but you must know when.

[cleveakabig]

Where did that come from?  Please explain your point, so we can offer some Godly input.

bass players who do not know their roles. Trying to play lead and playing alot of riffs of of left field trying to steal lead.
If you listen and compare the early bela fleck tunes to the lastest and you will hear Victor Wooden started to play wild riffs doing the whole songs and walking over others.

[carlmack7183]

I sort of agree but not fully. Old school bassists were more into locking in with the drummer, which in my opinion is most important. I think that today's bassists are more into exploring new realms, and I personally like the new bass movement, as long as the GROOVE doesn't suffer.I love Jaco and he is my favorite, and I can hum most of his tunes (i.e. "portrait of tracy"). I respect Vic Wooten's style but he is one that definitely sacrifices his grooves for needless riffing, which I find sad b/c Vic is one of the nastiest funk players there is when he locks in with a drummer.So I see the point you are making, but I think we as bassists should welcome the modern bass movement as well.

[cleveakabig]

I sort of agree but not fully. Old school bassists were more into locking in with the drummer, which in my opinion is most important. I think that today's bassists are more into exploring new realms, and I personally like the new bass movement, as long as the GROOVE doesn't suffer.I love Jaco and he is my favorite, and I can hum most of his tunes (i.e. "portrait of tracy"). I respect Vic Wooten's style but he is one that definitely sacrifices his grooves for needless riffing, which I find sad b/c Vic is one of the nastiest funk players there is when he locks in with a drummer.So I see the point you are making, but I think we as bassists should welcome the modern bass movement as well.

About old players and drummers. We did not have drummers to lock on to. Also I think drummers are used more now as a cheat to help these bass players find a groove now.

Who set that rule to lock on drummers? When I Played we had Piano Lead and Bass. Also today bass players depend on drummers to much to help them find their groove. All I want the drummer to do is keep the timing of the songs for the whole group.
That the drummer role to keep time.
The bass player is to set the groove.

[carlmack7183]

I disagree, The drummer is much more than a time keeper! Bass and drums are a marriage, they compliment each other. A good drummer loves a good bass player and vice versa. You say you are old school, but you find drummer and bassists locking into each other on old Jamerson, Bootsie Collins,Chuck Rainey, and plenty older songs. A drummer gives as much life to a song as any other band member, including bass. A drummer can change the entire feel of the song, and is more than a "time keeper". I find that a lot of gospel bass player do more riffing than other forms, but that another issue all together

[cleveakabig]

I disagree, The drummer is much more than a time keeper! Bass and drums are a marriage, they compliment each other. A good drummer loves a good bass player and vice versa. You say you are old school, but you find drummer and bassists locking into each other on old Jamerson, Bootsie Collins,Chuck Rainey, and plenty older songs. A drummer gives as much life to a song as any other band member, including bass. A drummer can change the entire feel of the song, and is more than a "time keeper". I find that a lot of gospel bass player do more riffing than other forms, but that another issue all together

Listen at these two clips of me being silly. I suck,I know I will get better in time. You can see I'm not locked on the drummer all the time its how you play your aproach notes.
I think that what It's called.
http://media.learngospelmusic.com/displayimage.php?pos=-1596

[carlmack7183]

I guess, we just disagree on this issue b/c on the clip you posted I think at times you are locked with the drum machine. You hit notes exactly at the same time as the kick drum and at times as the ride cymbal throughout the example. But hey I hope everything works out for you, Im about to hit the stage in a minute so take care and God Bless.

[Bullitt]

I have to disagree on the point that bass and drums shouldn't lock in.

I was always taught that bass is the instrument that brings everything together....the thin line between the time keeper and medley player. Both sides of this can be argued but without a little "spice" from the bass, a song can become boring quickly.

Example 1:

Imagine a song in which the bass and drums lock in with a piano playing on top.  I'm sure it will sound fine but after 2 or 3 minutes of the same cut & dry bass line and drum rythme, the song could very easily start to sound like "elevator music".


Example 2:

Imagine the same song with the bass player running riffs like his life depended on it.  The song will sound so busy and clutterred that most listerns will become uninterested in the song.


The point I'm trying to make is that discernment must be applied.  Especially in the Gospel realm.  We all love how James Jamerson could bust out a solid yet simplistic bass line and very few people will argue about Andre Grouche's fills/riffs....In my opinion, the key is using God given wisdom to know what to use and when.

God has given us all many different gifts.  If you don't use em (for Him), ya lose em.  As a young bass player, I like the directioin that bass playing is headed but we still can't forget about what the actual purpose of this instrument is.


God Bless,
-J

[B3Wannabe]

Music is flexible. Musicians should be flexible too. Musical styles change with the tastes of people and is also affected by the changes in society. I feel that if you like music that sounds like it was written in the 50s then play that music. Today, most people would listen to something different. I'm not arguing the point on either side. I just feel you should play what you like to play. If people like the way you sound then you're doing something right. We shouldn't try to sound the same anyway.

[chrismc101]

cleveakabig,

Even though you make a very valid point in your comparison. Your comparison can looked at by some as "judging." As we all know, that isn't for US to do.

With all music, some things are so simple but yet add so much flavor & color to a song. But on the other hand, a person that stretches their bass pass what we think are the "limits" of it, is just as beautiful. Yes, there are some musicians that are about self. Wanting to be heard & seen and if the song is about them. But for a bassist that take his craft seriously & know that I'm using the a gift that GOD has blessed me with. There is nothing wrong with a person learning all the scales, chords, progessions, modes, etc, etc and making the bass "do what it do."

One word that I find that a lot of Christians (some older) don't really accept is CHANGE. Times have changed and musicians way of thinking have changed. I play strickly in the pocket. I LOVE that sound. But I know & I'm gaining the ability to play harmonics, a sweet riff, or chord that adds just that lil color, flare, or flavor to a lick or song that makes it exciting & new & refreshing.

If all of us played like all bass players played back in the days, would there be any Terrence Palmer, Reggie Young, Andrew Gouche, Joel Smith, Tommy Brown, Victor Wooten, Waymen Tisdale,
Marcus Miller, Nathan East, Matthew Garrison; I mean the list goes on and on. There is nothing wrong with change and just the few names I've lsited above give you reference that change is a good thing. It allows you to see that, "hey, I can take that same bassline and add my flavor to it."

Yes, I agree, a musician that trys to stand out over the song, is out of order. The Bible says that "Everything should be done in decencey & in order." But for a musician to know other methods, tricks, or skills in playing doens't make it wrong when they add it in tastefully. And lastly, there are a lot of people that don't have trained ears, but a person that likes/enjoys music can tell when someone plays some harmonics or a tight chord, etc... They might not know the technical name for it, but it can be heard & enjoyed.

Just my take on things.

Be Blessed...

[cleveakabig]

Music is flexible. Musicians should be flexible too. Musical styles change with the tastes of people and is also affected by the changes in society. I feel that if you like music that sounds like it was written in the 50s then play that music. Today, most people would listen to something different. I'm not arguing the point on either side. I just feel you should play what you like to play. If people like the way you sound then you're doing something right. We shouldn't try to sound the same anyway.

Ok what I'm saying is this, look at music this way,you're trying to get from point A to B. Look at the drum like he is your MPH,the lead singer will be your Map or guide, backup ,hehehe your back seat drivers,bass player your road and the rest of the band your automobile.

Now,the drummer role is to keep your speed right and on target, the bass role is to make the changing of chords be heard try to make them stand out and to feel in dead spots. Other words make the trip from point A to B smooth until the end.

So that why I said the drummer should not be follow like you're joined at the hip. When you try to come up with a bass line for a song.
1. Listen at the song sometimes you can play with the chorus on some songs
2. You can play a splits second behind the lead sometimes.
3. You can also use yoru bass to play bass line like the old groups that had a person playing bass with their mouth. Like the song Ole Happy Days, they sing Ole Happy Days you on bass can follow that line up alone with the chorus.

 So try not to over do it. There is a point where all instruments meet in every song and should be on the same key, that is the time the bass should be like a flare gun. Let those notes ring out.

Go back and listen to me playing on those two clips,you will hear me pluck harder at key points.

Tell you guys something else,at one time bass players did not like when someone was watching them close because they did not want other bass players to try to steal their style.

So I think doing that period when the bass playing change to try to hide styles with all of these wild riff and playing.

[chrismc101]

I can feel you on that. A song is like a jorney and we all have our respective places or parts on that joerney to make it smooth & seamless as possible.

[Bullitt]

Ok what I'm saying is this, look at music this way,you're trying to get from point A to B. Look at the drum like he is your MPH,the lead singer will be your Map or guide, backup ,hehehe your back seat drivers,bass player your road and the rest of the band your automobile.

Now,the drummer role is to keep your speed right and on target, the bass role is to make the changing of chords be heard try to make them stand out and to feel in dead spots. Other words make the trip from point A to B smooth until the end.

So that why I said the drummer should not be follow like you're joined at the hip. When you try to come up with a bass line for a song.
1. Listen at the song sometimes you can play with the chorus on some songs
2. You can play a splits second behind the lead sometimes.
3. You can also use yoru bass to play bass line like the old groups that had a person playing bass with their mouth. Like the song Ole Happy Days, they sing Ole Happy Days you on bass can follow that line up alone with the chorus.

 So try not to over do it. There is a point where all instruments meet in every song and should be on the same key, that is the time the bass should be like a flare gun. Let those notes ring out.

Go back and listen to me playing on those two clips,you will hear me pluck harder at key points.

Tell you guys something else,at one time bass players did not like when someone was watching them close because they did not want other bass players to try to steal their style.

So I think doing that period when the bass playing change to try to hide styles with all of these wild riff and playing.

I like the car analogy.  I think it represents everyone's roll pretty well.....however, can you elaborate a little on the part that I highlighted?  I've got some thoughts on your comments but want to make sure I understand what you're saying correctly before giving my .02 cents worth.


God Bless,
-J

[cleveakabig]

I like the car analogy.  I think it represents everyone's roll pretty well.....however, can you elaborate a little on the part that I highlighted?  I've got some thoughts on your comments but want to make sure I understand what you're saying correctly before giving my .02 cents worth.


God Bless,
-J

Ok what I meant was this. There was a time when a bass player did his best to disguise his playing from other bass players.
 So some of the way they done that was to play wild and go out of the way trying to confuse other bass players watching there hands.

Larry Graham was a master of this,he would hol dhis hand funny and do things to make it hard to copy or figure out his style.

If bass players keep it to the points work together never walk over ther others the spirit will come upon you and guide you.

Play from your heart,but if you dig deep inside.

You will find that next great bass licks that people will Hum while they cut the grass sweep the floor,washing the car,combing hair or making love

[grouchojohn]

WOW! EVERYBODY, BREATHE

[Da Man]

Ok what I meant was this. There was a time when a bass player did his best to disguise his playing from other bass players...
Larry Graham was a master of this,he would hold his hand funny and do things to make it hard to copy or figure out his style.

Eddie Van Halen used to do that on guitar, hiding his tapping technique.  He reached the point of, at times, actually facing his bandmembers faking visual communication but in reality turning his back to the audience so no one could study his hands - His paraphrased quote. 

Da Man

[Andrzej]

I can remember watching an interview with Nathan East several years ago and he said that playing bass is like being the engine room in the band.  He also said that you have to be as solid and consistant as possible with your drummer / purcussionist because the rest of the band rely upon you guys as the rhythm section to keep everything together...that is your job!  Ever since I heard him say that it has been a huge influence on my playing.

Bass is traditionally not a lead instrument.  The way that music has developed over the past 50yrs or so it has demanded better dexterity from musicians, inlcuding bass players.  As a good musician I believe that you must know where to draw the line between playing a groove and playing lead chops.  There is a time and a place for everything and finding a balance is really down to you to figure out.  As a bass player sensitivity to the music you play is a major skill to have.  It's something you can't learn...you feel it.  That comes with experience.