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Author Topic: keyboard players - fake "new" progressions because they don't know the actual  (Read 9069 times)

Offline musiqisme26

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acutually it is really confusing when a keyboardist pops a different progression or alternate walk down or walk up to a song, and for the most part it actually teaches me to think outside the box and gives me ideas to make my playing sound different.  So during rehearsal I encourage the keyboardist to do that stuff cause it only helps me, but the funny thing is when I go and play with a keyboardist that just do basic progressions I'll use that strange alternate changes and the keyboardist is looking at me like I'm playing too much in the song, but it actually sounds tight...so my advice is to learn from it to help your playing so you can to confuse someone else...


i think 3 main things should happen for this not to be a problem

(im a organist but now i am play bass regularly on sundays and i as in me didnt feel the author of this thread shouldve used the word fake  just cuz music itself is hardly ever duplicated as is no matter what instrument you play what bass player plays note for note whats in a hymnal)

#1. Communication is key in service if a keyboardist/organist is going to change the progression of a song he or she should make sure they call it out or let it be known from before hand

#2. Dont come in expecting that any musician will not change something around in the structure of the song allow creativity and try to catch on however if what the musician is playin is really out of place or messing up the flow be professional and in a Christian like manner let him or her know just let it go!

#3. Help them advise what of what the real progressions are maybe they really just dont know and is using what fits which i know i do all the time

Offline J.Lwaters

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It really all depends, is this an entirely different arrangement of a common song?, or is the song the same, but only in certain changes  do they put in a special progression (if they are teaching this during a practice session I don't see a problem, but if they are doing it live and YOU have no idea whats coming next you may want to sit out, play under the radar or develop your ear better. One thing to remember about music, notihing is etched in stone. Sometimes being a good musician is about being able to adapt. Look at Uriahs videos. He teaches a method of learning that will prepare you for just those very things, because he doesn't learn songs. His method teaches freestyling techniques based on common chord progressions. Check him out.

Offline BassMan2000

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I had fun reading this post and I laugh about different progressions.
I didn't think it could happen to me, but my brother was lost too.

I helped a friends church out for a Revival.

Tuesday--- a Jazz keybroad player and I played. That was the best experiences I every had.
Progressions was outstanding and I could hear where he was headed next. He did his runs and riffs
and laid back when I did mines.

Wednesday--- The keyboard player was a two handed chord player. That's all I'll say about that

Thursday--- The worst night of my life. I could not tell what the keyboard player was doing. We
started the song in "B" then the song was a mix of B & C key.  The only time I could following the keyboard
player was when we played a Shout run.






Offline ddwilkins

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Thursday--- The worst night of my life. I could not tell what the keyboard player was doing. We
started the song in "B" then the song was a mix of B & C key.  The only time I could following the keyboard
player was when we played a Shout run.



Now this is awful.
Keep God first and he'll do the rest!!!

Offline thomas1168

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THAT WHY IM TEACHING MODES AND ALTERNATIVE SCALES

Offline BimmerFan99

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Wednesday--- The keyboard player was a two handed chord player. That's all I'll say about that

Do you mind elaborating?  I'm a keyboardist, too, and I want to make sure you mean what I'm thinking.  Was he playing lots of chords in the upper register with no bass notes?

Offline BassMan2000

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Yes, He played lots of chords in the upper register with no bass notes.  It sounded nice but I had to fill-in alot.
I like playing in the pocket, but I can improvise. I think he was an Organ player that used the foot pedal.

I have a friend that plays his Organ bass notes on the foot pedal, He was trained old school

Offline BimmerFan99

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Makes sense.  Thanks for clarifying.

I do the same, but I always do it on the organ when I can utilize the pedals.  On the piano, it's a different story.

Offline thomas1168

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MOST JAZZ PLAYERS AND GOOD BOARD PLAYERS WILL PLAY UP INVERT AND LEAVE THE BOTTOM TO THE BASSIST
ITS HARD AT FIRST MAN
I REMEMBER A LOT OF TIMES I WAS LOST
IM STILL TRYING TO FIND THE CHORD AND DUDE IS CHANGING KEYS

TRUTH THOUGH SOME KEYS CHANGE THE CHORDS SO MUCH YOU NEED A CHART TO FOLLOW NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU ARE
WE ARE BASS PLAYERS NOT MIND READERS


brotee

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 ?/? Brother I feel your pain; I have never in my life experienced anything like this. Given a song to learn, I’ll learn it to the "T" and when I get to rehearsal we are rewriting the song because the keyboard player either didn’t spend time with the song or just as you say can't relate it. All I know is to pray for them and stand fast. Let patience have her perfect work in you. This is vexation of the spirit and aggravating, very amateurish  makes me want to SCREAM...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline JoashStilltheman

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Am I the only bass player out there that has encountered a keyboard player who insists that a bass player play his "new" progression to a song because he doesn't know the correct progression?  I am not being mean just observing and seeing if I am all by myself here.  I am all for trying new progressions but not as an escape route because you don't know the correct progressions.  Please tell. 

You can have more than one progression to a song and they might all possibly be right. And it's good to do variations because it keeps your mind open to change which is critical in your musical development.
Joash....still the man

Offline JoashStilltheman

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I like this reply...when it gets down to it we are the bassplayers and as long as we are playing within the scale of the song and basic chord structure it shouldn't matter what the keyboardist is playing

Somewhat true but....you could still sound totally off. For example a C/E won't sound the same as a C/G although you might be playing within the basic chord structure!!
Joash....still the man

Offline Andrzej

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Ummm...I have to confess...I have "faked" progressions on the bass myself knowing full well that the keys player is doing something very different.  If I am honest, I have done that due to lack of concentration, over-excitement or not knowing the song that well.  I have done the same with scales/modes.  For example, I have mixed pentatonic scale over a melodic minor scale or vice versa with unimpressive results many times.  There has also been occasions when a key change has happened and I have totally lost where I am and played some pretty terrible lines in panic.  Hitting the wrong root notes, mistiming key progression changes...the list goes on!  The band has shot daggers in my direction plenty of times for messing up the song.  99% of the time, by the second run I nail it when I finally switch my noodle on.

I wouldn't be too harsh on yourself or your keys player if you play a confusing progression.  Sometimes you have to think on the spot when you are under pressure and not everything you do will hit the spot.  Thats the tricky thing about playing bass (and keys).  You have to react very quickly to what is happening around you and remain consistant.  You may get away with it one time, but maybe not so much the second time.  You have to keep yourself sharp and don't be afraid to ask or speak up to your band members if you are stuck playing a groove, progression or scale before comitting yourself to playing infront of your congregation.  That is the time that you will either kick yourself or be kicked by your band members!

Offline floaded27

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i got a question for the people that say they never learn songs? do you mean u just follow by ear what the organist/keyboardist is playing?  if so, thats totally under the assumption that you'll never be without one.

when i play i make it my business to learn the structure of the song, so even when im following the organist (and a good number of times i cant) i try to make a mental note of the underlying structure of the song, so 1. i can go home and practice the song and get a better handle on it and 2. there's always a chance that he might not be there for rehearsal or service and there is no backup so i would have to play the song by myself, or if the choir goes to another church to sing and our organist doesnt go and the organist thats there doesnt know the song, he can follow me.

another thing is that our organist is used to having to carry the whole song by himself; chords, basslines, melody lines (the whole point of the b3 anyway) so he takes shortcuts to learning the song, filling missing chord progressions with bass fills and similar things. and now that im the bass player, he hasnt adjusted he still does the same thing. so i cant follow him because 1. he's missing stuff for me to follow and 2. when he's missing stuff he starts stepping on my toes by trying to fill with bass stuff. so i have no choice but to learn the song when i can, otherwise im just a guy sitting there holding a nice looking bass
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline DWBass

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I don't mind a keyboardist who will play different inversions of the chords but I do mind one who will change the chord completely! I also don't like those who play left hand bass. I always ask them to play their left hand an octave higher or to use it to embelish what the right hand is playing (what I call 'middle range playing'). Nothing worse sounding than 2 different bass notes played at the same time. Total mud!
"Never Leave Home Without Your Groove On" :)

Offline ladybass

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I don't mind a keyboardist who will play different inversions of the chords but I do mind one who will change the chord completely! I also don't like those who play left hand bass. I always ask them to play their left hand an octave higher or to use it to embelish what the right hand is playing (what I call 'middle range playing'). Nothing worse sounding than 2 different bass notes played at the same time. Total mud!

Wow!  I never experienced this until this week while playing at a different church with musicians I don't normally play with during p&w an organist, keyboardist & drummer (at convocation) ... so lastnight I decided not to play (I let my Bishop know first, which he was fine with) ... it was pointless to play because there's "Nothing worse sounding than 2 different bass notes played at the same time" ... I just sat in the congregation and enjoyed the service as usual ... I'll play this afternoon when necessary .. my Bishop preaches and our youth choir is singing

Offline 6stringapprentice

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Man one thing I have learn with playing with different keys players is that they all have their own style. Some will play a song exactly like it was written and then some will change it so much you wont recognise the song untill the choir starts singing. You usually have to adapt to your keyboardist's style. Sit down with him and ask him if he will shed with you. You will develop an ear for his style and if he does start making changes you can usually follow him. Flexibility is key you might be the only bassist at a musical and have to play for 5 different choirs(i have been there) the more styles you know the easier life will be.
Sounding Mathematics.

Offline jlc4703

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Wow - looks like there's a lot of answers to this one, I'll add one more.

When I first started playing with our band, there was just the keyboard and drums, and I came on with bass. Our primary keyboardist is an excellent musician, but she (at that time) was only used to carrying the whole load, and working from full music (didn't have a clue on a lead sheet). BTW, she plays a Kurzweil SP88, and leaves it set on one of the electric piano sounds almost all the time. I had played about 20 years earlier with another church that had a good size band, and we all worked with chord charts or just knowing the songs and progressions.

Fortunately, we were both willing to put God and His music first - She really tried hard to stop playing a heavy left hand, and I kept things real simple, laying out if she emphasized the left hand. A few weeks later, we were sounding better. Then God added a guitarist, trumpet player, and occasionally clarinet/sax player. We worked together - the cool thing about a larger band is nobody has to play very much - in fact it gets too busy real quick if more than one person is real active. our primary pianist is now working from lead sheets most all the time, and either she, the guitarist, or occasionally myself carry the melody line. Sometimes, someone wants to do something we don't have any written music for - it just takes some work together, and help in figuring out the chord changes.

As time went on, I started using harmonica in some of the slow worship, just for a different sound, and then got a keyboard myself (I had a Prophet 600 back in the 80's - but it died). I still occasionally play bass, but most of the time now, I play a Kurzweil 2000VP and a computer based Hammond B3 simulator - still play a lot of bass runs on the shout music, but use Rhodes, strings, flute sound, organ (Hammond or pipe), and pads - God put me there to add little things in the background and to smooth out the playing - part of this means learning to accompany others and not lead most of the time.

Since I play both, I really recognize that it is really difficult for a keyboard player and a bassist to play the same runs - runs in any key that are real easy on keys are hard to do on bass, and the opposite is also true. I'm not real good in playing anyhow, but it does get better with time. We have three in our home all taking piano lessons, my granddaughter, wife, and self. I'm working in the early level 3 music for the most part now.

We usually hold a practice with musicians and praise singing leaders on Thursday night - the MOST important part of the night is for everyone to gather at the beginning in prayer, bind any spirits of divisiveness, pray for each other, and dedicate what we are doing to God - then the music just flows better. If it ain't right in the Spirit, it shure nuff ain't gonna be right in the playing!  ;D

God bless,
Jim
Jim Cason
Faith is the substance of things not seen

brotee

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Man one thing I have learn with playing with different keys players is that they all have their own style. Some will play a song exactly like it was written and then some will change it so much you wont recognise the song until the choir starts singing. You usually have to adapt to your keyboardist's style. Sit down with him and ask him if he will shed with you. You will develop an ear for his style and if he does start making changes you can usually follow him. Flexibility is key you might be the only bassist at a musical and have to play for 5 different choirs(i have been there) the more styles you know the easier life will be.

You are absolutely correct if the two of you agree on it. However if you rehearse a song to play on the coming Sunday and then change the arrangement because one did not stick to the plan or even practiced the song during the week is confusion. This is what I am experiencing.  The drummer and myself can't seem to relate this to brother man .

If you can't tell whats being played before the choir comes in...then it's not the song...it's a original with someone else's lyrics...Pray for me..............Presently ! ?/? :'( >:(

Oh yeah my name is Terry; called brotee I don't know if I ever introduced myself, forgive me. I am an old school brother from another mother, I love God and His son the Word...without Game nor Shame

Offline dfwkeys

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I played keyboard for 11 years, since the age of 15... and played along with good keyboard players but are lazy when playing, meaning, they play stuff just because they don't know the song.  One keyboard player is so sloppy that he even slaps the keyboard as if it was a slap bass  or something.  My style is playing exactly what is on the cd, and usually at the end of the song when it's over, and maybe the music is just still playing while people are shouting, crying, or whatever, i'll improvise, but i will keep it in a easy chord progression for the bass and every one to follow, either a 4-5-1, 2-5-1, etc.. but i will never, and i again i will say never throw anyone off by playing  a chord progression of

7-4-3-2-1-2-5-14-22,450, 1000 ;)
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