Extended Chords

[Qwan]

Hey LGM Fam,

I have a question for whoever can help. I am trying to incorporate extended chords into my playing and I am not sure how or when to integrate a 9th, 11th or 13th chord to get that full sound. For example, can I play a C13, C11, or C9 in place of a cmajor to get a different flavor or should I play something else. I probably can learn more through trial and error but I am confused and not sure that will accomplish much. Please shed some light on this subject. Are there certain extended chords that are used instead of basic chords on a regular basis, or does this just come with practice? If you could help, please let Jesus lead you to do so.

Qwan

[rspindy]

Hey LGM Fam,

I have a question for whoever can help. I am trying to incorporate extended chords into my playing and I am not sure how or when to integrate a 9th, 11th or 13th chord to get that full sound. For example, can I play a C13, C11, or C9 in place of a cmajor to get a different flavor or should I play something else. I probably can learn more through trial and error but I am confused and not sure that will accomplish much. Please shed some light on this subject. Are there certain extended chords that are used instead of basic chords on a regular basis, or does this just come with practice? If you could help, please let Jesus lead you to do so.

Qwan

Hey Qwan,

Though it is theoretically possible to add most extensions to any 7th chord, there are certain general principles that can help.  It is a good place to start.

The general rule is.  In general, avoiid tritones between an upper extension and any other note of the chord (except in dominant 7 chords) since the tritone gives the sense that it is a dominant chord and will have a tendency to confuse the function.

Major 7 chords --  Extensions 9,  #11,  and 13 are available.  Ok for some reason the tritone created by 1 and #11(#4) works in this case.  It is the 4th of the Lydian mode.   The natural 11 is a tritone with the 7th and you have the same notes as the dominant 7th built on the 5th of the chord  (CMaj7 11 == G11)  The dominant feeling tries to take over.  b9 and #9 cause similar problems. 

Added 6 chord --  Extension 9

Minor 7 chords -- Extensions 9, 11   (#9 == m3 of main chord)

m7b5 (half diminished) and dim7 can take a 9 in some instances.  Since these are often used as dominant 9 and dominant b9 with out the root, extensions are difficult.

Dominant 7 -- Extensions b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, (b13),  13, as well as suspended 4, b5, and #5.  These extensions can be used in various combinations.  Some chord voicings work better than others.   E.g.  A dominant 11 will often avoid the 3rd of the base chord, though some voicings can work.

Along with extensions comes the issue of "Chord Voicing" which is chosing the particular notes and the arrangement of those notes for the type of sound desired.  To play all the notes of extended chords is not always desirable.  "Voicing" requires a little bit of experimentation, but here are some ideas to help:

1.  Avoid the root in extensions above the 7th (or added 6).  The root is taken up by the bass player, bass pedals, or L.H. either as L.H. Bass R.H. Comping or chord + melody, or L.H. picking up the bass followed by it playing a chord voicing.

2.  Pick the notes necessary to define the chord.  The third is required (except in instances with 11 or sus 4).  The 7th (or added 6) is required - particular in dominant 7ths - to define whether the chord is dominant or not.  The highest extension is required for that sound. Any extensions in between, unless altered, are implied.

Here are come examples

Cmaj chord -- CM7 or C+6     (root is left of slash, voicing is right)

   C/ E G A D             = C 6/9   - 3 5 6 9(G is added to fill it out to four voices)

   C/ E G B D             = C Maj 7 - 3 5 7 9

G7 chord

   G/ F A B E             = G7 9/13 - 7 9 3 13 (Sometimes the 3 is left out here) -- The 9 can be flatted to make G7 b9/13.
                              If you need an 11 or sus4, simply raise the 3 (7 9 11 13)

   G/ B F A#              = G7 #9  - 3 7 #9 -- This voicing gives the feeling of the B nat against the Bb(A#)

Dm7 chord

   D/ F A C E            = Dm9  - 3 5 7 9   -- for Dm11, you could shift the 5 down one step or do the following
 
   D/ G A C F            = Dm11 - 11 5 7 3

Being rootless voicings allows the player to do some things with the roots.  Some voicings work with the tritone substitute root.  Some (like doing Dm9 G11) simply change the root with the same voicing (D then G bass with F A C E) 

Or    C/ E G A D             = C 6/9  Change root to F
       F/ E G A D             = F Maj 7 9/13

You can also move the notes around in the voicing (G A D E or A D G E)

This only touches the tip of the iceberg, but I hope it gives you some ideas.

[Qwan]

Rspindy you don't know how thankful I am. Thank you for taking your time out to write me such a detailed post. Thank God for people like you who go out of their way and help someone in need even though they already know.  I am going to jump on this and break this down. I love this website.

[Qwan]

Tell me what you think about this.
I was in the Target yesterday and just playing on a keyboard and I played a C13 chord in first position. I found that the chord can be used in the key of F because all the notes correspond to that key. I recognize that the notes in the chord are in the key of F which obviously can be used, however I figured that because it was the C13 it would be used in the key of C. With the Bb being dominant and not in the key of C how in the world would I play such a chord in the key of C.  If I am thinking right I would have to make the chord a Cmaj13 for it to sound right. When integrating extended chords how does the dominant fit in? It is not a member of the scale at all. Everytime I play the C with the dominant it leads me to the key of F. Which causes me to wonder, how do I incorporate a C7 in the key of C? Should I be playing a different dominant chord in which all keys are in the key of C.  I am starting to think that just because it is a C13 chord does not mean that it is going to be used in the key of C.  Please elaborate if I have not confused you myself. I have a feeling I may be thinking all wrong.

Qwan

[sjonathan02]

Tell me what you think about this.
I was in the Target yesterday and just playing on a keyboard and I played a C13 chord in first position. I found that the chord can be used in the key of F because all the notes correspond to that key. I recognize that the notes in the chord are in the key of F which obviously can be used, however I figured that because it was the C13 it would be used in the key of C. With the Bb being dominant and not in the key of C how in the world would I play such a chord in the key of C.  If I am thinking right I would have to make the chord a Cmaj13 for it to sound right. When integrating extended chords how does the dominant fit in? It is not a member of the scale at all. Everytime I play the C with the dominant it leads me to the key of F. Which causes me to wonder, how do I incorporate a C7 in the key of C? Should I be playing a different dominant chord in which all keys are in the key of C.  I am starting to think that just because it is a C13 chord does not mean that it is going to be used in the key of C.  Please elaborate if I have not confused you myself. I have a feeling I may be thinking all wrong.

Qwan

Someone once told me that when you use a dominant it always wants to resolve to the IV of the chord you're making dominant. For example:  C - C7 - F

From your description (as my limited understanding will allow), you ARE utilizing the C7 in the key of C, you're just moving to F (the IV of the Key of C).

I don't think you're think incorrectly, I think you may be thinking too much. 


I pray that I've been some help.

[T-Block]

Someone once told me that when you use a dominant it always wants to resolve to the IV of that key. For example:  C - C7 - F

Be careful here sjon, i would reword that.  The dominant wants to resolve to the IV of the chord, not the key.  The key you are in is irrelevant cuz a C7 chord in any key would want to resolve to some type of F chord.   I'm sure this is probably what u meant.

[sjonathan02]

Be careful here sjon, i would reword that.  The dominant wants to resolve to the IV of the chord, not the key.  The key you are in is irrelevant cuz a C7 chord in any key would want to resolve to some type of F chord.   I'm sure this is probably what u meant.

You mean of the chord in which I'm using the dominant; in this case C7 - F  or G7 - C. Because I can do those things, but be in the key of say Eb for the first example and Bb for the second example.

Is that correct?

[T-Block]

You mean of the chord in which I'm using the dominant; in this case C7 - F  or G7 - C. Because I can do those things, but be in the key of say Eb for the first example and Bb for the second example.

Is that correct?

Exactly, u got it man!!!

[Qwan]

Thanks sjon, that makes alot of sense, and also Tblock for the extra lesson.

Qwan

[Qwan]

Sjon and Tblock I have ( I think ) one last question. In the example that you gave, playing a C7 in the key of Eb, with the C7 chord containing an E would that clash with the Eb? Would I have to alter the chord, maybe bring the E down to the Eb or up to the F which would clash with the G, or would the chord work fine depending on the sound I am looking for?

Qwan

[sjonathan02]

Sjon and Tblock I have ( I think ) one last question. In the example that you gave, playing a C7 in the key of Eb, with the C7 chord containing an E would that clash with the Eb? Would I have to alter the chord, maybe bring the E down to the Eb or up to the F which would clash with the G, or would the chord work fine depending on the sound I am looking for?

Qwan

I think it would depend on what kind of sound you're looking for, I believe.

[Qwan]

Thanks again, I am on my way.

[rspindy]

Tell me what you think about this.
I was in the Target yesterday and just playing on a keyboard and I played a C13 chord in first position. I found that the chord can be used in the key of F because all the notes correspond to that key. I recognize that the notes in the chord are in the key of F which obviously can be used, however I figured that because it was the C13 it would be used in the key of C. With the Bb being dominant and not in the key of C how in the world would I play such a chord in the key of C.  If I am thinking right I would have to make the chord a Cmaj13 for it to sound right. When integrating extended chords how does the dominant fit in? It is not a member of the scale at all. Everytime I play the C with the dominant it leads me to the key of F. Which causes me to wonder, how do I incorporate a C7 in the key of C? Should I be playing a different dominant chord in which all keys are in the key of C.  I am starting to think that just because it is a C13 chord does not mean that it is going to be used in the key of C.  Please elaborate if I have not confused you myself. I have a feeling I may be thinking all wrong.

Qwan

To understand what is happening with your C13 in the key of C Major requires a bit of understanding of the relationships between the scale degrees and the chords that are built on them

The Major Scale contains 7 primary notes (I refer to them as primary because all notes can be related to any Tonic which leads to chromaticism)

I use Roman Numerals:  I   II   III   IV   V   VI   VII   I
   [In CMajor]               C  D    E    F    G    A    B    C
   [In FMajor                 F  G   A   Bb    C    D    E    F

If you were to stack 4 Cmajor scales on top of Each other in 3rds -- the first starting with C, the next E, then G, then B we form the primary 7th chords of C major

               B   C    D    E     F    G    A    B
               G   A    B    C     D    E    F    G
               E    F    G    A    B    C    D    E
               C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C
               I    II    III   IV   V    VI  VII   I

These are the naturally occuring 7th chords in a major Key.

I and IV is Maj 7
V is Dominant 7th
II, III, and VI is Minor 7th
VII is Half-diminished 7th (min7b5)

If you were to do the same process with the F scale, you would find the C is the V and has Bb as its 7th.

Does this mean that if you use a C7 (or any of its extensions) in the key of C major that you are not in C major (or worse yet that you are wrong?)  NO!!! and NO!!!!   You are using what is called a Temporary Dominant.  Your C13 is borrowed from the key of F and creates a greater pull to the F chord (IV of C major).  To truely establish F major as a new key (modulate to F), you would have to establish that Bb as a primary note instead of B nat.  That takes more than a simple visit by Bb to throw the C major party out of whack.

In fact, you can at times use D7 (V of G), E7 (V of A) and A7(V of D) in the key of C major.   A common progression is:
     C    E7   A7   D7   G7   C   (Five foot two, Eyes of Blue comes to mind.)  Each one is a "Temporary Dominant" of the next.  This is just a variation of  C   Em7   Am7   Dm7   G7   C.   You can even leave some as minor and change some to dominant and the Key of C Major will still have its say.

In the Case of C7 in Eb.  It is the temporary dominant of the II (Fm).  The root of C7 is the VI of Eb, so you can try Cm7 or C7 and see which works best.   If the melody is Eb then you may need Cm7 or you might try C7 #9  (Voicing -  E   Bb   D#(Eb)).

The other question that is implied is "Can you ever use C7 as I in key of C?"   YES!    The most common usage is in the basic Blues where the primary chords are all Dominant 7th -- C7  F7  and G7.

Also, there is music written in Mixolydian Mode ( Major Scale with lowered 7).   The Beatles and early rock used it a bit.  Usually, this music just used triads and although Bb major chord was common, the G7 (V of C) would retain its B nat.

In practice, you can actually relate just about any chord to any key.   The keyness of the piece is not created so much by how much you stay in the 7 chords of that key, but by how each part relates to the overall key.   Even if you were to truley establish and end up in another key for a time, if you work your way back, to the primary key it is as though you have never left.   This is the principle behind Sonatas and Symphonies and Fugues.   But that's a whole other story.

I hope that this helps.

[T-Block]

Sjon and Tblock I have ( I think ) one last question. In the example that you gave, playing a C7 in the key of Eb, with the C7 chord containing an E would that clash with the Eb? Would I have to alter the chord, maybe bring the E down to the Eb or up to the F which would clash with the G, or would the chord work fine depending on the sound I am looking for?

Qwan

It doesn't matter, that chord is perfectly fine as it is.  In the key of Eb, that C7 chord is a secondary dominant chord on 6, which naturally wants to resolve to the F minor chord on 2.

Key Eb  LH/RH

C / Bb-C-E-G (6)
F / C-F-Ab (2)

Anytime u play a dominant chord, no matter what key you in, you can't alter it because then you won't have a dominant chord anymore.  Like I said before, key is irrelevant when it comes to dominant chords.  Do u understand a little more now?

[Qwan]

Thanks alot rspindy for helping me out. I also like the way you have the 7ths spelled out like that. I have never seen that before. I think that will help my playing a lot more.  I understand what you are saying when you describe songs that venture into other keys but make their way back to the original. Like you said I have heard that on Beethoven as well as when I hear some organists play soft chords.  However, I do not know how to do that myself. I suppose that it would take careful thought to do so in a way that is "musical."  I am definetly going to put this to work. Tblock thanks for the information. I am a beginner but I have been playing drums in the band since I was young. I know that God has given me a gift because I understand music but I don't know how to produce what I naturally know. I have never been taught but I play my church choir. I know how to play basic triads in the right hand with a bass note in the left, and I usually double up on the bass in my foot on the organ. Sounds ok. Gets the job done, but not letting me play with my soul. I don't want to seem like I am just asking for chords without doing work, but I don't know how to change a simple chord into something that is...more invigorating. Should I know more theory, should I experiment, what don't I know?

Qwan

[Prophetic Remnant]

This is good stuff. 

[Cherri]

This is good stuff. 

Ditto...

[KurzLand]

This may also help:

http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,36546.0.html

[godspresence]

ok but how do you make them sound phat

[T-Block]

ok but how do you make them sound phat

The sound you want depends on what notes you play and where your play them.  That is basically up to you because only you can figure out the sound you are looking for.  Just experiment with the different chords and play them different ways.  Once you find the sound you are looking for then write it down and practice it in every key.  Try playing the chords high, low, in the middle, etc.  For example:

Cadd9 chord

C / C-D-E-G
C / D-E-G-C
C / E-G-C-D
C / G-C-D-E

C-C / C-D-E-G
C-C / D-E-G-C
C-C / E-G-C-D
C-C / G-C-D-E

C-G / C-D-E-G
C-G / D-E-G-C
C-G / E-G-C-D
C-G / G-C-D-E

C-G-C / C-D-E-G
C-G-C / D-E-G-C
C-G-C / E-G-C-D
C-G-C / G-C-D-E

C / D-E-G
C / E-G-D
C / G-D-E

C-C / D-E-G
C-C / E-G-D
C-C / G-D-E

C-G-C / D-E-G
C-G-C / E-G-D
C-G-C / G-D-E

etc.

You see all those different ways you can play that one chord?  As long as you got all the necessary notes, then you can play the chord any way that you want.  You just gotta put in the time to experiment with them.