Tithing and Debt (pastor arrested part 2)

[T-Block]

WOW, now we got even more people talking crazy stuff.

[Furious Styles]

No one has been able to come with anything that showed that the tithe was a man made prinicple that God allowed. Jesus called the pharasees out because they paid tithes and they were still evil. This doesn't validate it or discourage it either. Paul was supported by many in his ministry. I did state in my previous post that paul was supported by free will offerings. Could it be that some of the churches that Paul started had some jewish roots. Remember some of the jews who converted to christianity most likely kept the tradition of tithes just like they did other jewish customs. They also expected the Gentiles to keep some of those customs. Paul had to rebuke them because they wanted to base the Gentiles conversions off of Circumcissions. Paul had to let them know that they were under a new covenant and Gentiles shouldn't be held accountable to old jewish customs. That's why there may have been a difference in who tithed and who didn't. The seed offering doctrine is false because it implies that we can pay God for his blessings.
Jesus taught that if we believed in our heart and not doubted that all things are possible with GOD. Didn't say we had to give an offering.

This concept is not new. The Catholic church sold indulgences to the people for various blessings and prayer requests. These are things that we see broadcast on television every day. Some of you maybe apart of ministries that subscribe to this type of teaching. I hate to be the one to inform you that this is false doctrine. Jesus never charged anyone for any miracles. They were healed according to their faith, not according to their ablility to pay for it. When offerings are given who does the money go to? It goes to a human!! IF all the gold and silver is God's then how can we give him anything? We give support to ministry to help advance the causes of that fellowship. Using Malachi and other scare tatics to make people feel guilty is totally wrong. Jesus said it is more blessed to give than recieve. Most teach that we give to get and that is wrong. WE give to serve that is it!!! Telling people to tithe off of their gross or have people constantly giving above their regular tithes and offering shows a ministry that is irresponsible in some capacity. Some ministries are competing with others so they are trying to keep a certain ministry (profile) lifestyle. This mirrors our country's culture in teaching people to spend all they get while the richest one percent pockets the money. This also resembles the same paradigm of the early Catholic church that had unlimited sources of income coupled with power and influence. The catholic church is still a financial conglomerate to this day. Modern Denominiations and fellowships are headed in that same direction. People are after a "global ministry" but their immediate communities are poverty stricken with high crime and terrible education standards. A global mentality without serving the fields around them! WOW!!! How can we not see this. Benny Hinn raised millions for the Tsunami relief but stroked a checked for only 250,000. I digress. Open our eyes Lord...

[friedaddy]

Wow, you have a different perspective on tithing that I have never come across. It boils down to one word, faithfulness. If we can't be faithful with the little things (tithing, giving, time, blessings, etc), how can God trust us to do His will? I believe we are to bring our firstfruits to Him no matter what it is. We are selfish and this world around us gives us so much to indulge in if we let it. If we can't honor Him in that way and be faithful, then we are lost. If the Bible made no mention of tithing or giving, how many of us could actually say that we would be using our resources for the good of God rather than ourselves?

When I give unto my church, I don't concern myself with where it goes. Some may ask why, well it is because I did what I was supposed to do. If the folks in position of authority missuse the gifts, they will have to answer for that but to say they are not right so I am not going to give is wrong. We are not giving to the pastor, it is to show our faithfulness unto the One who had blessed us. If you give freely, you are releasing what you have, therefore you don't have anymore right to it. Besides, if you really trust and believe God, things will be in order.

It is only a tenth, surely it can't be that hard if we truly trust Him. Everything is His anyway so why not be faithful. He will supply all that we need and then some.

[B3Wannabe]

Well,

I'm going to conclude that this is just a difference in Doctrine. You guys wouldn't happen to be Inclusionists/Universalists, like Carleton Pearson and Oprah, would you? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to talk about you, but that would explain your view points.

We might just want to leave this as it is now, and not continue, since this conversation could drag on for 30 pages without  getting a result for either side. I know I'm not converting, and I don't feel God is telling me to continue to discuss this. I won't use the phrase "agree to disagree" though, since that just means we "disagree". I can't agree with something like that, just like you all can't agree with the "status quo"....

....We're all of different denominations, so if this conversation had been about what it takes to get saved or water baptism: dunk'em or spray'em, we would still have disagreements....so I make a motion that we adjourn to our relative rooms of choice. Do the Aye's carry?

[Wayne Webb]

Amen!

God prefer that you give freely & willingly. However, if you choose not to, he will get his one way are another. You wonder why that car broke down this week, and then the air conditioning went out next week, then the electricity was double what it usually is, then a sudden emergency doctor bill----- Yep, God get his!

Can I say something right here?

Matthew 5:45 says
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Translation? You tithe...and the car breaks down anyway.

What about when you HAVE been faithfully giving your tithe for years and your car breaks down, there's a sudden doctor bill. and the air condition goes out....Which I have had SEVERAL times.  Then you go to church the next Sunday and the preacher gives out this THREAT...."God will get His"....which is just what it is. That is putting people under the Law.

Your tithe is given in obedience to God and to support the church and pastor whether the car breaks down, or you lose your life savings. When preachers preach this from the pulpit, they are trying to manipulate people to give out of FEAR instead of a WILLING  heart. I've heard it so many times I'm sick of it.

But the Bible says "Give and it shall be given unto you....."
When you don't tithe, you are instead robbing YOURSELF of a blessing. We are no longer under the Law but under Grace.

BTW I tithe ABOVE 10% AND give a WEEKLY love offering..

[Wayne Webb]

Im sorry if I came on too strong there Sister T. 

[cloud9mission]

The Bishop at my Church teaches that God does not ask that you give all you have or that which you need. He just asks that you give what you might like to keep.

[baptistchurchman]

It seems that people trust man WAAAAY more than they do God.
Watch this: When Uncle Sam gets his where does it go?
1) to fund senseless wars
2) keep the rich rich while the poor stay broke
3) so the upper folks in government can have funds to keep making decisions that contradict what us church folks believe in such as abortions and gay marriages.
4) to make deals with folks who come back and terrorize our country
5) and only God knows what with the rest. But we allow them to take out of our check before we even get our check, yes we complain but we still give it.

God first of all doesn't take it He allows us to be responsible enough to give it; He then takes the dime and allows us to keep the 90 cents (wow, how generous is that when everything is His anyway and could actually take it all if He wanted to);He then promises to take the funds and ensure that the gospel gets spread abroad to countries where people don't get it often(which we see now more than ever); He also promises that there will be substance there to provide for thos in need (which I see the non-tithers benefit off of this more than anyboy else) And God has not lied to us yet and still so many try to find a way to twist and manipulate scripture to say they don't have to tithe or bless the man of God. And Furious just for the record the things that were written concerning nont-tithers were not threats or scare tactics they are real actions taken towards those who do not tithe. Now the unique thing about non tithers is the Bible refers to them as ROBBERS now a robber is totally different from a thief/ A thief is one who sneaks, one who is tippified, one who slithers and steals. But a robber is one who boldy says this is a stick up, who says don't move, who puts his gun or knife to your temple and says give me all that you have. Now when it comes to what belongs to God I don't want to be known as a thief either, but I surely don't want to be known as a robber.........I need an organ in a major C chord cause I am about to close this thing.........

Now ah for 15% I ah can saaaave on my car insurance.
Butah for 10% I have Angels watchin over me aaaaaall night aaaanda day.

   

[baptistchurchman]

Keep the organ Playin.....

For 15%ah I pay the waiter or waitress for bringing me my meal
Butah for 10% ah I haaaaava access to the man who not only took a two piece fish snack and fed 5,000 men not including the women and children, but who is also the bread of life.

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH yeah! is He alright! I said is He Alright!
Is He worth your dime! AAAAAHHHH! Yeah!!!!! lol...... we gotta quit we gotta quit we gotta quit AAAAAHHHHHH! Yeah!!! we gotta quit.       

[sjonathan02]

Keep the organ Playin.....

For 15%ah I pay the waiter or waitress for bringing me my meal
Butah for 10% ah I haaaaava access to the man who not only took a two piece fish snack and fed 5,000 men not including the women and children, but who is also the bread of life.

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH yeah! is He alright! I said is He Alright!
Is He worth your dime! AAAAAHHHH! Yeah!!!!! lol...... we gotta quit we gotta quit we gotta quit AAAAAHHHHHH! Yeah!!! we gotta quit.       

YEA, YOU need to quit. 

[Wayne Webb]

From Malachi 3

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the
field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Who is God rebuking? Certainly not Himself.

God never said He would "get His one way or the other"
If your car breaks down or you lose money, it is not because GOD is standing there with a big stick,waiting to hit you over the head so to speak....and TAKE AWAY what is His. How would that do the Church any good.

If your car breaks down or you have to go spend a fortune on medical bills or your house burns down, it ain't cuz God is "paying you back" for robbing Him. Them things are going to happen regardless. It says He will "rebuke" the devourerer, NOT incapacitate him completely.

Here is another passage.

Psalm 50

 7Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God.

 8I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.

 9I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.

 10For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

 11I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.

 12If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

 13Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

 14Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:

 15And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

God don't need our money....He owns it all.
It is unscriptural to take LOST people's money.....bake sales, yard sales, etc...even their tithes....hello?
Tithing and supporting the church is for Blood bought regenerated believers only....SAVED people are to support the church.
I've seen church people begging money from people in grocery store parking lots...to support their church. God is so poor He needs to solicit money from unbeleivers on their way to Hell? Bet that makes them want to get saved.

Let me run a rabbit for a minute: I am a business owner and have had many preachers come into my store wanting me to "donate" my products....They have NEVER once  asked "If you died today, where would you spend eternity?" No sir, don't matter if you lost or saved to them seems like. Just gimme gimme. Makes you want to ask "Is your God broke" If I gave to every false doctrine preacher who asked me that, I'd go broke. But my God ain't broke, He pays His own way.  My God ain't beholding to nobody.
God don't want your money or need it. He wants your heart. He wants YOU..


The Bible says ".....God loveth a cheerful giver"
That don't just mean the church either. It includes those in need.
He wants us to give for "our" own good.
He loves it when we give because we WANT to....not because we HAVE to.
Then He will BLESS!

[sjonathan02]

WW, you're the only guy who, when posting, takes up a whole page just about every time. 


Love ya, Bruh!!

[Wayne Webb]

WW, you're the only guy who, when posting, takes up a whole page just about every time. 


Love ya, Bruh!!

  (chuckles and grins)

I know...I will try to work on that some more.

You too brother!

And thinking back....there have not been that many who asked for donations.
Actually, I've got a work order for a church sign now and completed one a couple of weeks ago.
Sorry for exagerating   

[baptistchurchman]

The organist just came back with a phat chord and got us back started again! AHHHHHHHH Yeah!!!! we gotta quit. lol.

[THE WOLFMAN]

BTW I tithe ABOVE 10% AND give a WEEKLY love offering..

Um, seeing as how the word "tithe" means "tenth", ya  can't give above 10%

I mean, you can say you give above your tithe, but if you make $100, ya cant tithe $20.
your tithe is $10. the other $10 is extra.

my 1/2 cent.

[dude-on-drums]

i think its safe to say that whether paying tithes or receiving tithes is right or wrong, is measured by the individual's perception...as in all things.

 

[Wayne Webb]

The organist just came back with a phat chord and got us back started again! AHHHHHHHH Yeah!!!! we gotta quit. lol.

Oh man!
Sorry I wasn't here to hear it....
I was off playing a little bluegrass 

[baptistchurchman]

i think its safe to say that whether paying tithes or receiving tithes is right or wrong, is measured by the individual's perception...as in all things.

 

I kind of disagree with this statement because if the bible says paying them is right and not paying them is wrong then regardless to what the individual's perception is, it's what the Word says. 

[Wayne Webb]

BTW
What is a "phat" chord?
Is that something like a "power" chord?

Will it work for bluegrass? 

[baptistchurchman]

BTW
What is a "phat" chord?
Is that something like a "power" chord?

Will it work for bluegrass? 

uuhhhhh I don't know about that one.