Why do churches under pay organists?

[sjonathan02]

I will say that I don't think there's anything wrong with blessing the Organ player with a "love offerin'". I will also say that there's nothing wrong with a preacher not requiring a musician at all.

But here's where we hit one of those gray areas...............I can praise God on the Organ at home by myself. By that statement, I don't deem it my "resposibility" to play at church just 'cause I can play keys. I play at church because I love to play AND IF OTHERS WANT TO PRAISE HIM WITH ME...........GOOD THEN!

On the other side of it..........If pastors pay others to conduct business in the church, I don't see a problem with blessing the musician......because after all MUSIC DURING WORSHIP SERVICE IS A LUXURY!!!!!!! and we should try to keep from being cheap with luxuries right???

Now across the table
I don't think it is right to just bust in and play the organ at whatever church and turn around and start demanding money. Some churches don't have the resources to pay musicians to play......which is prob'ly how you got on the keys in the first place.
Recently I have bee the musician of a small COGIC in Manteca C.A. They didn't pay me once and I don't expect them to. But I certainly do appreciate their appreciation. how's that GW???

IRT the small print, not bad; not bad at all phonetically speaking, of course.

[THE WOLFMAN]

i think the issue is when there is evidence that the ministry got the money, then doesnt want to extend that to the musician. that's wack. Quite wack, in fact.

If the ministry is wanting in finances, then, that's a different set of drawbars.

I played for a church for years before gettng anything, I knew funds were tight, and i was cool with that. I was "tithing my gift", as it were. That's just where I was at the time.  but they started puttin a lil sum'phin in the pocket not at my behest, but because they felt it was right to do.

It comes down to good business.

Folk know if they're gonna get paid BEFORE they start to play. It is your decision to accept that.

Dont jump on board because you see the need, and you wanna help, on som ol' "It's for the LORD", and then complain later cuz u aint gettin nuffin.

If one feels they must get paid for their services, then make that evident before the services!. If they cant do it, then it is what it is. Dont pull a single drawbar.

[Bruh Kell]

i think the issue is when there is evidence that the ministry got the money, then doesnt want to extend that to the musician. that's wack. Quite wack, in fact.

I agree here. What kind of "ministry" would hold something back if they have it to give? Some kind of "ministry"!!!!!!!!

If the ministry is wanting in finances, then, that's a different set of drawbars.

I'm stealing this catch line!!!!

[sjonathan02]

i think the issue is when there is evidence that the ministry got the money, then doesnt want to extend that to the musician. that's wack. Quite wack, in fact.

If the ministry is wanting in finances, then, that's a different set of drawbars.

I played for a church for years before gettng anything, I knew funds were tight, and i was cool with that. I was "tithing my gift", as it were. That's just where I was at the time.  but they started puttin a lil sum'phin in the pocket not at my behest, but because they felt it was right to do.

It comes down to good business.

Folk know if they're gonna get paid BEFORE they start to play. It is your decision to accept that.

Dont jump on board because you see the need, and you wanna help, on som ol' "It's for the LORD", and then complain later cuz u aint gettin nuffin.

If one feels they must get paid for their services, then make that evident before the services!. If they cant do it, then it is what it is. Dont pull a single drawbar.

This sums it all up, quite nicely.

[THE WOLFMAN]

This sums it all up, quite nicely.

and with paragraphs!

*walks away whistling the GW theme**

[Wolfram]

Religion is a business.  Faith is not.  We go to church because we have Faith, HOWEVER that does not interfere with the fact that we have trained in a craft and are being asked to use that craft to help someone else's business.  The Pastor is getting paid.  The staff is getting paid.  It seems funny to me that everyone on the "business" side of things gets paid for their services, but there seems to be a taboo when it comes to getting paid to play for Jesus.  I go to church to Worship.  I do that as soon as I enter the building.  I do not have to play organ or saxophone.  That is a service in which someone wishes me to perform.  I can choose to perform that for free or a fee can be established.  That is the business end of Religion.  Some churches grumble because it takes money out of the pot that would otherwise pay for "business" things.  Music is OUR business.  Stop feeling bad about that.  God gave you the skills to be a musician.  That is YOUR business.  Church is the place you share that.  Music does not HAVE to be a part of services.  It is not a prescribed prerequisite for holding service.  Churches on the cheap can always sing sans musicians.  They did it in the past...

W

[Lamonte 1990]

I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooo tired of people misquoting that particular piece of scripture.

I second that...

[THE WOLFMAN]

Churches on the cheap can always sing sans musicians.  They did it in the past...

W

Yeh, call B_X, she's head of the washboard ministry, she can come by and do a seminar.

[sjonathan02]

and with paragraphs!

*walks away whistling the GW theme**

AMEN!!! 

[gharris004]

I have to say that I beleive that you should play for the love of music not to get rich. Even though it is good when organist like my self get paid that is not what is all about. I have went to churches who had an organist that didn't show up for their all week revival, and I came all week on time actually ewarly and they didn't pay me. But I didn't let that stop me from coming and letting the glory of God come in and rest in the church. I even song for their services. So let us not worry about getting paid if money is a problem then ask God about getting a job. And starting actingly like you know that music is a ministry not a business when it comes to church.

Also I wanted ya'll to know that MUSIC IS NOT THE MOST MINISTRY IN THE CHURCH, because with out the word we wouldn't know how to get saved and stay saved.

Be blessed and highly favored of the Lord   

[ShawnG]

Let everything that had breath praise the Lord.....We are not suppose to worship money; which makes the situation worser when there's a debate about the church funds and musicians getting paid (This happened in my church when I was a teenager and the musicians and pastors debating over money almost tore our church apart, but I thank God for faithful praying Saints because they're still standing). The debate of money causes conflicts in the house of God to arise. And what does the "Devil" want? He does not want order, he does not want us to fellowship together in giving God the highest praise. The Devil wants nothing but confusion and conflicts. If you all don't know by now, the Devil comes to steal, kill and destroy. This situation is not at a level like this. But the Devil goes to church too and will create conflicts that will start small and get bigger and bigger. We have to continue to work together and pray as we worship God, allowing Souls to be save as they accept our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
To All Musicians: Honestly, if you have that gift that God allows you to have in playing instruments, then freely use it in church at your on will and let God bless you with a reward. If the church decides to consistently give you tokens and payments, be happy about it and accept it as a blessing.
Paraphasing: when praying and fasting, Anoint your head with oil and then wash your face; you don't have to let people know that you're fasting, in order to be bless. Jesus said that if you do it secretly, and keep the same appearance as if you were not fasting, then he will reward (bless you with more) (Keep in mind I was paraphasing) Matthew.
Now I know that we're all human and have all kinds of needs, but I would like to refresh you all with some words of encouragement listed below:
Ask and you shall recieve....
Knock and it shall be open...
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me (Phil 4: 13)
No matter what I may think of a church and no matter what I need in life, Truly it's all about Souls being saved and making it into the Kingdom of Heaven!!!
God Bless
ShawnG

[4hisglory]

Here is my solution:

YOu should pay the people who would do it for free.

[Wolfram]

I guess we can seperate this arguement into two camps.

Those that have bills to pay and those that pay the bills. 

If you are a true musician and this is your calling from GOD, He will not slight you for earning an honest wage using the talents that He gave you in the first place.  Secondly, there are numerous threads that talk about the 'evils' of Gospel musicians playing secular music YET right here in this very thread we are seeing the main factor as to why this happens. 

God does not condemn musicians to a life of poverty.  If you are a musician and you make a portion of your salary from playing in Church for Jesus, why is this an issue?  It is not.  The only people that believe that are those that are brainwashed by the Religion machine.  They have been told all their lives that their talent was SUPPOSE to be given away for free because the people telling them this DIDN"T respect them enough or value them enough to do the right thing.  I am not talking about voluntarily offering to play for free. (Which I do at my church... It was my decision)... I am talking about being told that a church will not pay their musicians because God will not hire mercenaries...  That is garbage.

If a church wants a high quality organist and no one steps forward for free, then they will have to hire one.  This does not diminish the fact that they have a great organist nor does it diminish the fact that the organist could be very Godly, it means that the musician knows the amount of preparation and practice and what not is worth a certain dollar amount.  He is not a lover of money, he is practical and is trying to make ends meet.  He is not greedy, he is trying to feed his family.  Let us not forget that music, although creative, is still an occupation and to some of us it puts food on the table, pays for the roof over our heads, takes care of our families.  Where is the 'evil' of working as a church musician.  Does the Pastor get paid to preach?  Is anyone on salary at your Church or are you all doing it for free?  There is no difference at all.  Your Pastor is worshiping God and collecting a check and so can your musicians.

[ShawnG]

WOLFRAM
You summarized this entire thread.
Truly there are some churches that hire musicians...
Truly there are some churches that hire preachers and pastors...
I play for free also and I love to play; I know some pastors that don't get paid, but do it because of their calling.
ULTIMATELY:
With God first, the situation that you're in defines the conclusion that we're all seeking.
The information on this thread was very awesome from everyone and I hope you've all learned something, like I have.
God Bless.
ShawnG

[Runs_N_12_Keys]

Religion is a business.  Faith is not.  We go to church because we have Faith, HOWEVER that does not interfere with the fact that we have trained in a craft and are being asked to use that craft to help someone else's business.  The Pastor is getting paid.  The staff is getting paid.  It seems funny to me that everyone on the "business" side of things gets paid for their services, but there seems to be a taboo when it comes to getting paid to play for Jesus.  I go to church to Worship.  I do that as soon as I enter the building.  I do not have to play organ or saxophone.  That is a service in which someone wishes me to perform.  I can choose to perform that for free or a fee can be established.  That is the business end of Religion.  Some churches grumble because it takes money out of the pot that would otherwise pay for "business" things.  Music is OUR business.  Stop feeling bad about that.  God gave you the skills to be a musician.  That is YOUR business.  Church is the place you share that.  Music does not HAVE to be a part of services.  It is not a prescribed prerequisite for holding service.  Churches on the cheap can always sing sans musicians.  They did it in the past...

W

BEAST!!!

[PianoWizard]

Welcome to the LGM family "gharris004"....Be Blessed.

PianoWiz...

[jeremyr]

Who wants to hear mother wilson play that rag time style of piano for the youth choir on sunday morning?

 

ROFLMBO

[Runs_N_12_Keys]

We had a Similiar topic in another MB that I am Apart of...


Check this out

 

MrSparrow



Registered: 2/27/07
Posts: 681   7/13/07 at 09:40 AM       

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone asked me about some scriptural backing for musicians getting paid. There are several underlying issues with this topic that I'm sure we'll get into but they all generally fall into two categories...

Cheap Churches- churches that want you to play for a 5 night revival, have $100 offering lines every night, shout for an hour EVERY night, have an hour long altar call etc... and then give the musician who's been there EVERY NIGHT ON TIME $50 ($10 bucks a night) for a "LOVE OFFERING"...
The same churches will pay their musician $50 a Sunday for the last 17 years and will look at you crazy if you ask for a $5 dollar a week raise but still have 5 different choirs, 2 different praise teams 4 concerts a year and want to hear the newest/latest songs EVERY SUNDAY...

and

Prostituting/Stripper Musicians- They only play for PAY no matter WHAT'S GOING ON...the preacher could say JESUS IS THE DEVIL WORSHIP ME!!!! and the musician will tune him up and start playing the latest shout... They play for 3 different churches every Sunday, they say they're not driven by the money but in the end that's all they are after. They are the equivalent of a prostitute or a stripper not caring at all for themselves or the john paying them as long as they get paid... David Koresh could call them to play in Waco and the first thing they would say is HOW MUCH is he paying??? They don't feel that church is the house of GOD/House of PRAYER/House of DELIVERANCE but they think it's a GIG like they're in the club...

A lot of churches think musicians should not charge for the "GIFT" God gave to the musician to bless the church. Most musicians who fall into the Prostitute category were burned by the church they honed their talent in so they often go to the other extreme...

All of this revolves around the lack of respect/lack of understanding concerning what a Levite is, what a Levite does and who a Levite is...

I know this is long and I've used extremes here to paint the picture so please don't get sensitive. All musicians aren't playing for the highest bidder and all churches don't pay their musician $1200 a year ($100 a month) but there are several that fall into that catergory...

A Levite is a keeper of the TENT OF MEETING. Nowadays we don't have tents, we have churches. A Levite is a priest (firstborn son) who is dedicated to serve the house of God and the people of God.

THIS WAS THEIR ONLY OCCUPATION.


Numbers 1:50
Instead, appoint the Levites to be in charge of the tabernacle of the Testimony--over all its furnishings and everything belonging to it. They are to carry the tabernacle and all its furnishings; they are to take care of it and encamp around it.

Numbers 1:53
The Levites, however, are to set up their tents around the tabernacle of the Testimony so that wrath will not fall on the Israelite community. The Levites are to be responsible for the care of the tabernacle of the Testimony."

The area surrounding the Tent of Meeting was for the Levites. Cities were given to the Levites

Leviticus 25:32
"'The Levites always have the right to redeem their houses in the Levitical towns, which they possess.

(I'm sorry I'm getting ahead of myself...)

That meant from the person scrubbing the toliets to the Minister of Music, to the usher board to the announcement lady... they are all keepers of the TENT of MEETING. They are all modern day Levites.

I'm about to wrap this up...

In this era of the appreciating the Man and Woman of God (PASTORS, APOSTLES, EVANGELISTS etc...) and blessing mandated from GOD for them for being the Angel of the house/Cheif Priest there has been a total disregard for the Levites. Pastors have fulltime ministry with health insurance, housing allowances (where do you think the IRS got that from? The WORD of GOD!!!) car allowances etc... the Levites have been shifted to volunteer status. I'm not talking about what I heard, I'm talking about what I KNOW! You would think that your cheif musician shouldn't be catching a cab or riding the bus to your church if your Pastor is driving a Bentley right?

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON PASTORS!!!!!!

I'm not really posting this to argue but to enlighten and you really can't argue with the word...

Here it is... in black and white (and blue)...

DRUMROLL PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Numbers 18:21
"I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting. NIV

And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. KJV

And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. ASV

"I'm giving the Levites all the tithes of Israel as their pay for the work they do in the Tent of Meeting. The Message

It did not say, I give to the PASTORS all the tithes in Isreal as their inheritance... It did not say I give to the BISHOPS all the tithes in Isreal as their inheritance...

Read Numbers 18:20-32 see what THUS SAITH THE LORD concerning this topic...

God Bless ya...

MrSparrow
 
http://tyetribbettworldwide.com/

[SoundofJoy]

I'm a 34 year church musician.......enough said...if I had gone into the "world" (get an understanding first of word world) I would have been in the forfront of all the music past and present as a writer, instrumentalist, composer etc. I chose to stay in the church. I didn't go to Berkley or any of the other tremendous institutions that have fostered so many of the past and present musicians. I went to work at 17, played for 6 choirs, met 4 rehearsals a week, played Tues, Thurs, Sunday all day (11 - 9 PM), played all the revivals, tent meeting, district meetings, state organist, every Sunday afternoon program and Pastor appointment. I saw my children on Monday and ddn't see them again til Sunday morning. I didn't make any PTA meetings, no cub scouts, little league softball etc. I went though musician burnout watching all the other musicans around me leave for better opportunity and easier workload. I had to do it over again...well you read between the lines.

I don't mean to gripe but my opinion is, if you sacrifice opportunities to support a local ministry, they should at least compensate you rightly, or you should move to a better situtation.

34 years and still going...........

[Runs_N_12_Keys]

I'm a 34 year church musician.......enough said...if I had gone into the "world" (get an understanding first of word world) I would have been in the forfront of all the music past and present as a writer, instrumentalist, composer etc. I chose to stay in the church. I didn't go to Berkley or any of the other tremendous institutions that have fostered so many of the past and present musicians. I went to work at 17, played for 6 choirs, met 4 rehearsals a week, played Tues, Thurs, Sunday all day (11 - 9 PM), played all the revivals, tent meeting, district meetings, state organist, every Sunday afternoon program and Pastor appointment. I saw my children on Monday and ddn't see them again til Sunday morning. I didn't make any PTA meetings, no cub scouts, little league softball etc. I went though musician burnout watching all the other musicans around me leave for better opportunity and easier workload. I had to do it over again...well you read between the lines.

I don't mean to gripe but my opinion is, if you sacrifice opportunities to support a local ministry, they should at least compensate you rightly, or you should move to a better situtation.

34 years and still going...........

PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEACCCCCCCCH!!!!!