Is there such thing as playing wrong?

[floaded27]

i get what you saying, because the chords provide that harmony that people more easily identify. But the bass as well as the drums are important. its just that the organist my be an essential part, but he doesnt run the show. the B3 was designed so the organist could do everything by themselves. but what happens when you go to a church that just has a keyboard? moving  your feet around dont do anything for you.

But uriah, i totally get where you coming from. they do look for that first. but to suggest that the bass player go do something else because the organist wants it his way is ridiculous. Thats like the pastor telling a minister "if you dont preach exactly like me, you should go do something else". Why should someone else's stubbornness cause me to give up what God has called me to do? Are they that more called by God that they can make you give up your calling?

Besides, most organists dont study bass like we bass players do. They're not sitting watching or listening to James Jamerson, Ray Brown, etc trying to get the most of your bass playing (not just slapping). They approach bass the same way they approach playing the organ, unless they're imitating a specific bass line from the record. The similar way when a guitarist first goes to bass he may approach it like a guitar, but its a different beast and a different mentality comes along with it. Just come up off the bass and let us play.

i guess next that guy will be telling the choir not to sing so loud because the people cant hear him play.

[mjl422]

I think the key is, like Quebass86 suggested, you and the organist needs to communicate and practice together.  It seems that you two are hearing things differently and need to come to some understanding/compromise as to what you want to do musically. 

Maybe because he considers your playing "wrong", he doesn't feel comfortable leaving the bass entirely up to you.  Also, maybe when you jump up to play the melody, he's not hearing the foundation being covered.  So, he feels he needs to cover the foundation.  Regardless of how well we move around on bass, we have to make sure that we are covering the foundation (the main purpose of the bass).  I'm not saying that you aren't covering the foundation but, without an audio sample, It's impossible to say for sure.

Or maybe the notes that you are playing are clashing with the chords that he is playing (which would sound wrong).  So, to answer the question "Is there a such thing as playing wrong?"  YES.

[MikeGee]

lol, all this talk of organs . At my church there is no organ. The acoustic guitar  is the "front instrument". Our keyboard player plays more in the background then I do.

[floaded27]

mikegee, a setup like that here in NY would be like 1 in a million (probably literally). Here its basically any church that has been in existence for more than 15 years a Hammond B3 is basically standard issue. between 5 or 10 to 15 they probably had a choice to go with a B3 or use keyboards. any church newer than that uses basically keyboards. You may find exceptions, but thats the general rule (give or take a few years). Thats just the way it has been.

Over the years the way its been is if you coming up in the church and you wanted to be a musician, you either learned the drums or organ. Basically because (1) those were readily available and (2) there was somebody to teach you or at least get you started. For the churches that didnt have an organ, it was keyboard. But bass, guitar, sax, or any other instrument was a rarity and if someone learned, it was outside of church. so the organ/keyboard was the main thing.

[predestined_innocence]

wow...ok what do I respond to first. (smile)

Well...you guys are right. I do think that sometimes he gets intimiated because I am a female, but that is beside the point. Basically, we need to practice together more often. That's the major problem at my church is that "we" need to get better about rehearsing. I am doing my part by suggesting rehearsals, but to them it's like in one ear and out the other. It has a lot to do with that I am this "damsel in distress female". Testosterone says, "She doesn't know what she's talking about."

I will follow the organist concerning movements and different riffs. But I will play what I hear...bottom line. Now there are times when the bassist has to follow the organ on different movements or it won't sound right. And yes, I am working on that. However, I will play what the Lord is putting in my ear to play. If we all played the same then what is the point of being a musician!

Uriah, I understand what your saying about the organist to some degree. But as some of my fellow musicians said...the organist does not rule. Now, the organist can hold there own when nobody else is there. But think about how many times people come to church and if it's just an organist they huff and puff...and sit there with an attitude. Let me tell you a secret...(the main person that is sitting there with an attitude is the orgainst!) Why, because they want to play with a full band as well. They need some to accompany them. That's a surprise.  If they were the main instrument, why should they get mad that ain't nobody else show up? They shouldn't because they are the "main event". They can "get through a service "all by themselves".

Yes...we know you should come to church just for the music, but it is a MAJOR part of the services. Just think of how service would be without music. Music attracts so many people. It an awesome tool that is used to build the kingdom of God attracting the lost.  Just  think about how you are affected with music in church. If you really think about it, a lot of the zeal that we have for church comes from the music. That is what makes us wanna have church. Music gets us going! People want to hear a full band. We are all equal. Ain't nobody the ruler but Jesus! And the last time I talked to this organist, I don't believe he was born of a virgin. So...he ain't the boss. Plus he is not the minister of music. So we are all working together for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to glorify God. I dare not let ANYBODY chase me out of a gift that God has given me. It's not a dictatorship. It's not a hierachy. That's the problem with a lot of musicians today. They think that they are the one when they aint...God is the one. Bottomline.

[MikeGee]

mikegee, a setup like that here in NY would be like 1 in a million (probably literally). Here its basically any church that has been in existence for more than 15 years a Hammond B3 is basically standard issue. between 5 or 10 to 15 they probably had a choice to go with a B3 or use keyboards. any church newer than that uses basically keyboards. You may find exceptions, but thats the general rule (give or take a few years). Thats just the way it has been.

Over the years the way its been is if you coming up in the church and you wanted to be a musician, you either learned the drums or organ. Basically because (1) those were readily available and (2) there was somebody to teach you or at least get you started. For the churches that didnt have an organ, it was keyboard. But bass, guitar, sax, or any other instrument was a rarity and if someone learned, it was outside of church. so the organ/keyboard was the main thing.

Our pastor is 25 and our church was founded about 2 years ago.

[B3Wannabe]

I only say this though, why is it that people have a problem following in church? I'm guessing this organist is the minister of music (or music director), which may not be the case, but If this was a secular job then there would be no issue. This is definitely firing grounds. If this was Joe Pace, saying the same thing, we wouldn't hear about it.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't try to hold people back, but if the song calls for a certain feel, then I as the minister of music/music director, not the band, direct it. There is no confusion in there. That's what the person is there for. When we play, I try to give everyone space to play what they're feeling, but it doesn't happen through the whole song. We set this up during rehearsals. Sometimes, the Spirit takes it a different way during service, but there is communication with me, before anyone does anything.

[4hisglory]

I think the problem is not with you or the organist, its a problem with the entire culture of the church musician.  Its like:

"You bring your bassist, I will jump on the organ, we can get Pukey on keys and Ray ray on guitar and just get up the on Sunday and play together".

Which makes no sense but thats what happen at so many churches.

[floaded27]

I think the problem is not with you or the organist, its a problem with the entire culture of the church musician.  Its like:
"You bring your bassist, I will jump on the organ, we can get Pukey on keys and Ray ray on guitar and just get up the on Sunday and play together".
Which makes no sense but thats what happen at so many churches.

im honestly laughin my head off here 4hisglory because "Pukey" doesnt sound like a person u want using your keyboard. LOL

i totally agree with you. it sometimes becomes a total mash-up where everybody in their own world. but actually sometimes its actually that Ray Ray and 'em play together all the time and they know how each other work and know each others signals. Some people have to play together every sunday and it feels like a mash up because there are no rehearsals theres no cooperation. Thats my situation, but me and my drummer lock it in together because we get our time in that we work together. We have trouble getting our organist to the regular rehearsals, let alone extra musician rehearsals.

I only say this though, why is it that people have a problem following in church? I'm guessing this organist is the minister of music (or music director), which may not be the case, but If this was a secular job then there would be no issue. This is definitely firing grounds. If this was Joe Pace, saying the same thing, we wouldn't hear about it.

question: firing grounds for who though?
but this isnt a joe pace situation. and joe pace wouldnt have an organist trying to take over the role of the bass player because he has a ... hmmm.. bass player. and if there is a secular job there is no leading of the spirit. anyway its a case of playing at your church and theres a difference between someone wanting to play for their own church and a hired hand, but i wont get into that. a lot of times when its that situation as 4HisGlory described, there is no M.D. or M.O.M. so you just going with it. and in my case not having one reduces a lot of problems at the moment because its not the organist that deserves or even would be considered for the position (so imagine the turmoil there).

Sometimes, the Spirit takes it a different way during service, but there is communication with me, before anyone does anything.

some of these musicians aint even saved worth a lick (im being straight up honest here) so how they gonna know where the spirit is moving. And thats even more frustrating. I no longer play when our pastor is preaching. I take my bass off, turn my equipment off and open my bible. Why? Because its frustrating that Im following the spirit, but the organist is forcing me to follow him when he was just sleep!!!

[B3Wannabe]

im honestly laughin my head off here 4hisglory because "Pukey" doesnt sound like a person u want using your keyboard. LOL

i totally agree with you. it sometimes becomes a total mash-up where everybody in their own world. but actually sometimes its actually that Ray Ray and 'em play together all the time and they know how each other work and know each others signals. Some people have to play together every sunday and it feels like a mash up because there are no rehearsals theres no cooperation. Thats my situation, but me and my drummer lock it in together because we get our time in that we work together. We have trouble getting our organist to the regular rehearsals, let alone extra musician rehearsals.


question: firing grounds for who though?
but this isnt a joe pace situation. and joe pace wouldnt have an organist trying to take over the role of the bass player because he has a ... hmmm.. bass player. and if there is a secular job there is no leading of the spirit. anyway its a case of playing at your church and theres a difference between someone wanting to play for their own church and a hired hand, but i wont get into that. a lot of times when its that situation as 4HisGlory described, there is no M.D. or M.O.M. so you just going with it. and in my case not having one reduces a lot of problems at the moment because its not the organist that deserves or even would be considered for the position (so imagine the turmoil there).
some of these musicians aint even saved worth a lick (im being straight up honest here) so how they gonna know where the spirit is moving. And thats even more frustrating. I no longer play when our pastor is preaching. I take my bass off, turn my equipment off and open my bible. Why? Because its frustrating that Im following the spirit, but the organist is forcing me to follow him when he was just sleep!!!

My whole statement is based on the assumption that the person we're discussing is in charge. It doesn't matter if they're saved or not. It also doesn't matter if the person is a volunteer. If there is an issue, then they should try to settle it themselves or bring it up to the Pastor. If there is no leader then that's a whole different animal. 

It'd be firing ground if a person didn't know how to follow the leader. If you were playing for Joe Pace, and he said, you're playing is a little off, it doesn't matter whether you're feeling the Spirit or not. You have to change.

[dhagler]

Where to jump in?  Should I jump in?  I agree with Uriah that the keyboardist is and should be the lead musician.  When the bassist and the keyboardist learn each other, the keyboardist will relinquish the low end.  Even better, the keyboardist will suggest bass lines or runs to the bassist.  This is the situation I have been blessed with but it took a little time.

My sincere prayer is that God will bring predestined and her keyboardist together and they will learn to work together.  Just keep praying that God will move on your situation.  In the meantime, just keep playing.  And keep praying.

Some would even argue that the musicians are merely the background for the choir....

[floaded27]

not that this is part of the discussion, but why doesnt it matter if the person in charge is saved or not? in my humble opinion, they should be.

but thats not part of this discussion. so i pose the question: what happens when this "organist rules" mentality erupts to the point when the organist doesnt bother to learn the songs because he feels "he doesnt have to" and the bass player does, and you play the song correctly, but he goes off in his own world and you have to follow him? That is in no way right, whether you're in charge or not. If you wanna make some changes fine, but not learning it because you dont feel you have to, is just ego. and ego doesnt belong in the church because we're playing to and for someone greater than us all.

and joe pace can say that because first and foremost its his music and people are coming/paying to see Joe Pace, not "bass player guy" and "bass player guy" knows its a privilege to play with Joe Pace. People are not coming to church just to hear "organist guy". They're there for God and the Word thats brought forth, and truth be told hes just an accessory, like us all.

Even better, the keyboardist will suggest bass lines or runs to the bassist.

that does make things easier, but thats going to put you in a box. you'll either start becoming dependent on the keyboardists suggestions (what happens when he's not there) or you can only play just like the keyboardist does. wheres your growth? how is it possible that way? i treat my playing just as i would any other ministry because it is. I wouldnt overstep or be out of line with the pastor, but i wouldnt want him to tell me what i should do every step of the way.


i speak strongly about this because im experiencing the same thing predestined is, but to a different level, because i broke out of it. I will not be forced in a box, and i know that if i play the way my organist does i will not grow at all.

just speaking my opinion and experience. i hope i havent offended or upset anyone. i do apologize if i have.

[Quebass86]

What was satan doing when before he got kicked out of Heaven? He was over the music ministry...so of course he is going to cause disruption there...pray, pray for practice, pray for patience,pray for positive attitude, pray about pleasing God and pray for perfected praise......things will settle down and you will eventually be on the same page...As my MOM says sometimes, nobody has a song that is just theirs to lead because when they are dead and gone, someone else will sing it...and in the right key!

[B3Wannabe]

not that this is part of the discussion, but why doesnt it matter if the person in charge is saved or not? in my humble opinion, they should be.

just speaking my opinion and experience. i hope i havent offended or upset anyone. i do apologize if i have.

I agree that they should be, but if they're put in charge by the Pastor, then all you can do is work with it. It doesn't negate their "authority" just because they're not saved. If the Pastor puts a MOM in charge, and they're not saved, fighting against the person does you no good. It's the Pastor that you need to talk to. The music director should be sensitive to the Spirit, because it is their job to direct the band. Not the other way around.

I think this is the reason why we have some issues. If a person is in charge, let them be in charge. If you have a problem with them, take it up with their leader. When it's our turn, we all want the same courtesy.