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Offline pastor rob

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preacher fights back
« on: December 05, 2007, 09:49:11 PM »
Here is Creflo response to the senate inquiry.
This was copied from Yahoo! news.

 One of six Christian ministries under investigation by a Senate committee is rebuffing inquiries into its spending, challenging the panel's watchdog role over religious groups, The Associated Press has learned.

A lawyer for preacher Creflo Dollar of World Changers Church International in suburban Atlanta has asked Sen. Charles Grassley to either refer the matter to the IRS or get a subpoena, according to a letter from Dollar's attorney obtained Wednesday by the AP.

Grassley, the ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, sent pointed questionnaires in early November to a half-dozen ministries, asking about salaries, perks, travel and oversight. The Iowa Republican set Thursday as the deadline for a response.

All six organizations preach a form of the "prosperity gospel," the belief that God wants his faithful followers to reap material rewards.

Besides Dollar, several other televangelists have signaled concerns about invasions of privacy and violations of religious freedom. Only Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo., has provided the detailed financial and board oversight information sought by Grassley.

Dollar's refusal could lead to a court fight, giving a judge the authority to decide whether the committee is entitled to all the information it requested.

Grassley emphasized the other five still have time. The senator also reiterated that his probe "has nothing to do with church doctrine" and is strictly concerned with making sure the tax-exempt groups are following the law.

Dollar has been the most vocal in his criticism of the probe. In the Nov. 27 letter obtained by the AP, Dollar attorney Marcus Owens wrote to Grassley and Sen. Max Baucus, the Finance Committee chairman, that the church is willing to comply with a "proper" request for information — but it should be handled by the IRS.

Owens, the former director of the IRS's exempt organizations division, pointed to precedent: In the 1980s, a House subcommittee asked the IRS to review concerns about televangelists.

"A referral would permit Senator Grassley and the Senate Finance Committee to discharge their obligation to oversee federal tax administration without running the risk of government entanglement in the Church's religious beliefs and practices," the letter said.

An IRS review also would ensure privacy, Owens wrote. All IRS reviews are confidential, and Dollar has said he worries that a Senate probe might air sensitive information about salaries, among other things.

Failing a referral to the IRS, Owens requested that the committee seek subpoenas to "provide an appropriate legal context for the review." With a subpoena, the church and its members could gain confidentiality protections.

Joyce Meyer Ministries expressed confidence last week that it would be found in "complete compliance" with financial regulations.

The organization also addressed one of the more salacious details in the letter from Grassley — its reported purchase of a $23,000 "commode with marble top." The ministry said it was not a common toilet but a "a tall elegant chest of drawers," and that the selling agent got the price wrong.

Aside from Dollar and Meyer, the other televangelists have been noncommittal in their public responses. But some have voiced strong objections that echo Dollar's about privacy and religious freedom.

Bishop Eddie Long, who leads a megachurch and ministry in Lithonia, Ga., initially promised to "fully comply" with Grassley's request. But a few days later, Long told his congregation the request was "unjust," "intrusive," and "an attack on our religious freedom and privacy rights."

The others who received letters from Grassley are Randy and Paula White of Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries of Tampa, Fla.; Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas; and Kenneth and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas.

Owens said in an e-mail to the AP that while each ministry is "separately responding as it sees fit," lawyers for the ministries have been in touch and share common concerns about Grassley's request.

The letter from Dollar's attorney describes the prosperity gospel as a "deeply held religious belief" grounded in Scripture, and that the six churches are part of the "rich tapestry of religion in America" deserving of protection.

Some legal scholars believe the Senate is a proper forum to review religious nonprofit groups' finances — although with caveats.

Congress has a legitimate interest in making sure nonprofit rules are followed because confidentiality rules make it hard to track IRS enforcement, said Marc Stern, general counsel of the American Jewish Congress, who advises religious groups on church-state issues.

"On the other hand, Congress is a very blunt instrument," he said. "Congressional hearings are hardly models of due process and they can pick on anything they want for any reason they want and that raises real concern. So there's this pull in both directions."
In Him,

Pastor Rob

Offline uriahsmusic

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 10:25:41 PM »
...now it looks even more shady than before.... :o

Offline jdholliday

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 09:11:25 AM »
...now it looks even more shady than before.... :o

I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?

Offline jjblack

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 09:47:17 AM »
I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?

I agree...

He shouldn't just be railroaded into doing what they want if he can fight it. Sounds like a smart move to me. If they have issues let the IRS deal with it, isn't that what they are paid for?
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 09:56:40 AM »
I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?


What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)
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Offline SirTJ

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 09:58:04 AM »

What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)

Driving While...

I can't make out the last letter. If it's what I'm referring to, I thought it was a DUI or DWI. Maybe not.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 09:58:34 AM »

What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)

Ooooh, finally I get to be the answerer instead of the asker... LOL!   :D :D :D

DWB= driving while black!  ;)
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Offline Fingers!

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 10:12:12 AM »
either refer the matter to the IRS or get a subpoena...

its reported purchase of a $23,000 "commode with marble top."

You know, that's not right, spending money like that.  However, we DO live in a country of laws.  They can't do a fishing exhibition.  They need to get a subpoena or let it go.

Offline jjblack

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 10:15:22 AM »
Wouldn't it make you mad....

You pay $23,000 for a commode with marble top and somebody pees on the seat.
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Offline jdholliday

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 10:34:59 AM »
You know, that's not right, spending money like that.  However, we DO live in a country of laws.  They can't do a fishing exhibition.  They need to get a subpoena or let it go.

It is right if it is her money she spent it own. 23k may not be the same % of dollars to her as it is to you or me.

Offline jdholliday

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 10:35:48 AM »

What's Dwb? ?/? I hope it's not what I think you're saying it is. ::)

Yeah it does happen my friend.

Offline csedwards2

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2007, 12:07:28 PM »
I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?
you didnt read the last thread then.


I say fight!

Offline jdholliday

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2007, 12:15:28 PM »
you didnt read the last thread then.


I say fight!


I was saying fight also if you want also.

Offline uriahsmusic

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2007, 01:09:12 PM »
I hope you are joking. Most people I know will defend themselves esp if they did not do anything wrong. If you recieved a traffic ticket for Dwb would you fight it or pay the fine & let it go on your record?
.....Im not joking at all.....and I guarantee you that the vast majority of the world smells a rat....as I do! People are selling Gods word to feed their greed....and I dont think it should be done....that goes for music too!Yeah...yeah....I know thats the way of the world....but I think we have twisted things a bit and are now in rationalization mode!...THIS WAS SURELY NOT CHRISTS INTENT!

p.s. they have every right to defend themselves.....LETS SEE IF THEY CAN...OR IF THEY HIDE BEHIND ANY LOOPHOLE THAT THEY CAN FIND!....

Offline nessalynn77

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2007, 01:09:41 PM »
I think Joyce was smart. She truly has nothing to hide, so she complied and its done.  She will come out better than the other five.  

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2007, 03:19:22 PM »
I think Joyce was smart. She truly has nothing to hide, so she complied and its done.  She will come out better than the other five.  

Mmm... I don't know about that, Nessa.  For me, it's a matter of principle.  Sen. Grassley had no legal grounds to demand this information, and the others are calling him on it.  If he wants the info, he should go through the proper channels and get a subpoena or have the IRS request it.  But, who the heck is he to just be calling out churches at random and demanding they show their financial records and stuff?

Not to mention, that stuff costs money to prepare.  If they comply now, they could be opening themselves to these types of on-the-fly investigations every year or so by some eager, over-achieving senator trying to get his name in the paper so he can prepare his run for president in 2012 or 2016.

I'm not sure what I would do if I were one of the six, but I'm leaning toward handling it the same way the 4 did (I think the Whites intend to submit the info, but asked for an extension).
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Offline BigFoot_BigThumb

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2007, 07:46:25 PM »
This is just more money that the church is gonna have to spend.  I seriously doubt that any legal fees are going to come out of his pocket.  If he has nothing to hide, then just submit your records and get it out of the way.
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Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2007, 08:13:53 PM »
This is just more money that the church is gonna have to spend.  I seriously doubt that any legal fees are going to come out of his pocket.  If he has nothing to hide, then just submit your records and get it out of the way.

Why?  Because someone without relevant authority demanded he (they) do so?

I have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let some random police officer come into my home and look through my closet without a search warrant.
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Offline chevonee

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2007, 09:56:13 PM »
Why?  Because someone without relevant authority demanded he (they) do so?

I have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let some random police officer come into my home and look through my closet without a search warrant.
CO-SIGN!!! If he would have refused to submit to the IRS then I would be suspicious.
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Offline nessalynn77

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Re: preacher fights back
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2007, 12:34:10 AM »
I think that in the interest of the church, submitting the documents would be the easiest way.  Along with that, they can challenge the process and whether or not it is a fair request.  In other words, let the world know that you are on the up and up, AND that you oppose the way the investigation was handled.  I think it lends more credibility that way.
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