Studio Recording.... Mic'ing your amp vs. direct in to recording equipment...

[lilBB]

I know there are pro's and cons to both...but are there serious differences that should be considered?

it seems like every "producer" or "engineer" or whoever's recording equipment it is, always wants the guitar player to go direct into the board.

the recordings come out OK, but I don't know if im losing something by not mic'ing my amp, and i instinctively want to mic my amp, just can't ever give a clear reason why.

(forgive me if we've talked about this before. let me know if we have and i'll find it.)

Thanks All

[funkStrat_97]

I know there are pro's and cons to both...but are there serious differences that should be considered?

it seems like every "producer" or "engineer" or whoever's recording equipment it is, always wants the guitar player to go direct into the board.

the recordings come out OK, but I don't know if im losing something by not mic'ing my amp, and i instinctively want to mic my amp, just can't ever give a clear reason why.

(forgive me if we've talked about this before. let me know if we have and i'll find it.)

Thanks All

Most likely, unless you are recording a song with emphasis on guitars, most producers probably would prefer to record the guitar direct to the board because they just want to add a little guitar flavor to the track.  Besides, once you go about your merry way, there's no telling what those sinister minded producers might do with your part.  It could end up sitting so low in the mix that it probably wouldn't matter if you played it on a custom made PRS or an ultra-cheap Squier Strat.

[lilBB]

Most likely, unless you are recording a song with emphasis on guitars, most producers probably would prefer to record the guitar direct to the board because they just want to add a little guitar flavor to the track.  Besides, once you go about your merry way, there's no telling what those sinister minded producers might do with your part.  It could end up sitting so low in the mix that it probably wouldn't matter if you played it on a custom made PRS or an ultra-cheap Squier Strat.

LOL. true! it's happened before where i recorded some basic clean guitar parts...and when i came back later to hear the song...the guitar was "distorted" and sounded terrible...like a kazoo or somethin, lol. it wasnt a big project or nothin so i let him have his fun...but told him not to give me any credit for guitar on the song, lol.

[melrhyne]

Most likely, unless you are recording a song with emphasis on guitars, most producers probably would prefer to record the guitar direct to the board because they just want to add a little guitar flavor to the track.  Besides, once you go about your merry way, there's no telling what those sinister minded producers might do with your part.  It could end up sitting so low in the mix that it probably wouldn't matter if you played it on a custom made PRS or an ultra-cheap Squier Strat.

You are so very right, about producers/engineers. They ultimately have the final say on what you sound like, unless it's your project, and you are there during mixdown. That being said, if you have enough room, to really push air, and baffles, miking a live amp is truly a lot of fun. Direct recordings, are most common, especially in this age of DAWs. You have to really trust the board minder when going direct. This is where good "people" skills come into play

[JayP5150]

Agreed (from what I hear) about the producers.

Personally, I prefer mic'd (even live--occasionally I've used a Behringer 4x12 emulator, which is ok, but I like to hear out of the pa--or on the tape--what I hear out of my amp).

I've heard a lot of people will record both, simultaneously, and then mix them as needed in the song.

Like you said, they both have their goods and bads.

*begin opinions*

DI - clear, punchy, but sterile
Mic - warm, "authentic", but can be noisier and or/rumblier (which can be solved with a low cut...).

*opinions over*

You going into the studio soon, BB?

[gtrdave]

I know there are pro's and cons to both...but are there serious differences that should be considered?

it seems like every "producer" or "engineer" or whoever's recording equipment it is, always wants the guitar player to go direct into the board.

the recordings come out OK, but I don't know if im losing something by not mic'ing my amp, and i instinctively want to mic my amp, just can't ever give a clear reason why.

(forgive me if we've talked about this before. let me know if we have and i'll find it.)

Thanks All

In my experience, most studio recording situations I've done have been done using an amp and a mic and not a direct device.
I use my POD here at home for demos and such and I might use it in the studio if needed but I'd much rather have a speaker moving air rather than a simulation of that event.
It just sounds...better...just like how tubes sound better. 

[JayP5150]

It just sounds...better...just like how tubes sound better. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that throws out the tube card lol...

I was restraining above 

[Jordan Rivers]

HI, I own a recording studio, the truth is this,  you sometimes need the best of both worlds.
Lets face it you can't compete with music today if you don't understand sound equipment.

First the Acoustic guitar.....to record acoustic guitar and get the real acoustic sound.....here's how it is done.
you should have a great acoustic guitar such as an electric acoustic like, Ovation, Taylor or Martin. If not borrow one or rent one to do your recordings.

   1.) direct inject straight your guitar into a digital recording unit and make your eq adjustments on the digital screen.
2.)Next run a mic in front of your guitar and try and find that sweet spot that sounds the best.
I feel best sweet spot is just infront of the guitar hole....and the reason why is because you want to pick up the sweeping sound of the guitar pick & your fingers on the strings.

You see when you direct inject you get a fuller richer guitar sound, but you  don't get much of the pick across the string sound. You want that also so you must use a mic.

Whatever you do don't direct inject into a sound board.

Only direct inject right into the digital Multi-track.
The Digital Multitrack I use is a Tascam, my sound board is a Peavey professional sound consel mixing board.
     Some people think that hey I have a pro sound board so I better use it......well lets face facts to shortest route to recording is the best sound. When I direct inject I use no reverb on the guitar.
Yet....when I record with  with the mic, I do use a slight amount of reverb.
and I record both direct and mic at the same time.

Also if you want to get a cool stero sound on acoustic Rhythm guitar, try recording  a left rhythm track, once your done ...then record a right rythme track , and set the tracks at about 80% to the left off center and 80% to the right off center. Then record your lead at 30 % left of center and 30% right off center, but record the lead on 2 tracks at once. And you need the lead on 2 tracks because you'll need more power as you add more instruments and you'll need the lead to stand out.

AS far as recording an electric guitar, go ahead and mic the amp all you want......... but I have to tell you the truth..... if I direct inject my electric guitar into a Digitech RP 350 I'll have a better sound than any amp or sound board can give you.....I plug my electric into the RP 350 and plug the RP 350 right into a digital Tascam Multitrack unit.
Doing this makes it sounds of very high professional quality and can't be beat even in a Hollywood studio.
I own 2 - 365 watt tube amps & the best amps fender makes and use them for concerts........but remember this, doing a concert is one thing, the art of recording is another. I also have a new fender jazz amp in tweed that is a 50 watt tube amp and it's my favorite,the sound is awesome.....you know those fender yellow tweed amps.The 50 watt amp as beautiful tone that can't be beat, It weighs about 75 pounds and  is only about 2 feet wide and  2 feet high, and has only 1 speaker....but it's awesome, I also have a 365 watt fender amp twin speaker and it's huge....but The yellow jazz amp is my favorite.

Anyways back to recording

If your using a pro mixer you also need to have years of experiance on eq units,digital reverb and multi effects sound processors,You need to know when to use a compressor-limiter-nosie gates and when not to use them.
Many people go over board on to much effects, it's like candy, too much candy will make you sick.So learn how much to use, take notes if you have too. And study.

Truth is there's a million ways to record a guitar, find what you love best and do that.
If in your heart you want to record the amp......then record the amp, but if I were you I'd do some experimenting first and get the sound you want and listen back to a few sound checks you do over say a 30 day period.
The reason why 30 days..................because a true fact is your ears become tired when you over work on sound.
Doctors say that the first 30 seconds is the best time to make adjustments on sound equipment.
Then rest your ears for a minute and make another adjustment for 30 seconds............I learned that trick 20 years ago.
And I have one of the best ears around.
    Try it some time.
          Hope this helps.
             Thanks
                Jordan Rivers
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                                  http://jordanriversguitarforum.blogspot.com/
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[JayP5150]

You see when you direct inject you get a fuller richer guitar sound, but you  don't get much of the pick across the string sound. You want that also so you must use a mic.

AS far as recording an electric guitar, go ahead and mic the amp all you want......... but I have to tell you the truth..... if I direct inject my electric guitar into a Digitech RP 350 I'll have a better sound than any amp or sound board can give you.....I plug my electric into the RP 350 and plug the RP 350 right into a digital Tascam Multitrack unit.
Doing this makes it sounds of very high professional quality and can't be beat even in a Hollywood studio.

I'm sorry, but I call shenanigans on both those statements. I have yet to hear an onboard acoustic preamp/pickup that sounds "full an rich." (Taylor and Ovation included)

Piezos are inherently brittle and twangy, and I feel they pick up too much percussive overtones.

I also can't get a good, clean sound from micing the soundhole--the soundhole is a bass port, in essence, and unless you're micing it slightly off-axis of that, you'll get a lot of boomy lows. I get the best results placing a good condenser about a foot above the saddle, and a foot away from you, aimed slightly downward toward the saddle, and tilted slightly toward the soundhole. This gives you a balanced tone, and a bit of room tone (if you like room tone--also, this is highly dependent on the guitar). Think about it... this is basically where your ears are positioned, and will give you a capture that sounds like what you actually hear when you play.

And a Digi RP 350? Really? I'm not trying to seem condescending or argumentative, but... really?

I just can't see anything Digi makes as beating out Hollywood studio quality (apologies to anyone here that is a user). I owned a smaller RP, and it was noisy, sterile, and the adapter kept dying on it. Actually, a few of your big time artists are doing the opposite, and moving to something like a POD live (for ease of consistent tone), but refusing to replace the amps in the studio.

Like Dave mentioned, we're talking about moving air here, and you can't emulate physically moving air... that is, after all, what makes sound.

Doing this makes it sounds of very high professional quality and can't be beat even in a Hollywood studio.
I own 2 - 365 watt tube amps & the best amps fender makes and use them for concerts........but remember this, doing a concert is one thing, the art of recording is another.

What type of amps we talking about here? I wouldn't try to record with that high-powered of an amp, either lol. I'd actually love to get my hands on that Carvin 8w/16w triode/pentode deal. Vintage 16, I believe.

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, some of that just sounded lie the exact opposite of everything I've encountered. Your mileage may vary, however. 

[gtrdave]

TL/DR

[jlynnb1]

a 365 watt amp...interesting....

[Jordan Rivers]

Hi Jay, sorry but I have to respond to what you're saying because you're way off base.

I have been in music for many years and I am also a professional sound engineer.And professional Guitarist and singer.
If you have the knowelge I do you can get great pro quality from sound gear.But you need to understand how to use it.

1.) The RP 300 and the RP 350 has digital perfect sound, there's no noise and no hiss ever.So Jay when you say there's hiss, you are miss leading people here.
The sound of the RP 350 is so warm and clean, never steril.
If you're getting noise in your set up,you most likely don't understand much about sound equipment and the problems that can arise, only cheap guitars and amps  and broken cables,and bad grounding,cause noise not an RP 350.Also a lack of understanding eq's cause hiss and noise.

I have recorded many CD's and performed in concert for years. I stand on what I said about the RP350 from Digitech.
Here's why reason why.
My studio equipment cost well above $55,000 maybe 60,000 just for my gear.
The average person on this forum can not afford the equipment I own. It would break their bank accounts and cause trouble in married families to spend that kind of cash.

Yet if some one has a dream out there, and still wants to take a shot at the big time and release a CD, yet only had a limited amount of money......then I'd tell them to buy a digital multitrack and a RP350.
You see if you understand how to program the RP350 and not just use the presets  I believe it's possible to release a pro CD.And a CD that sound as good or better than any pro CD on the market. It's only a lack of knowlege and skill on your part Jay for you to say the RP350 is a joke? or what was the word you used shanigan? or how ever you spell it.

The sound from the RP 350 is very full and rich perfectly defind and can be adjusted as good as Eric Claptons sound or George Benson, or Zack Wylde or who ever you listen too.....myself I follow the Lord so I don't listen to them much......
But Jay.....If your using an old cheap RP unit that cost 60.00 to 145.00 bucks then maybe you got what you paid for a cheap unit, maybe your not happy. And Maybe you should look into something better.
The RP 300's and 350's are awesome, there's no need to move up to something better. Anyone would love it.

I do know that Digitech in years gone by wasn't known for great processors.They have been around for many years in fact I purchased my first digital delay from them 26 years ago.Then I moved up to a Peavey Ultra Verb 2 which cost me 800.00.....and that was a great investment. I just wish Peavey would have kept making world class processors........I still use my Ultraverb 2. And it's in my studio today along with tons of other equipment.

But I have to say with the RP 300 I was very happy and surprised that a unit that cheap would be just that good.
I myself play guitar on a world class level.
I have some of the best equipment around. And one day I may put some pictures of my studio on my web site.I have the pictures already taken for my new video we are working on.So maybe I'll post them up.
Just so you know I am not a fake and not pulling anyones leg here......even though Jay thinks I am....

And yet with all the equipment I have, I always take the RP350 and RP300 to do my concerts with.
And it's become a work horse in my studio and never lets me down.
I just do not think I can find a better sounding processor for electric guitar anywhere.

The reason why I am telling people about the RP350 is it has nearly every sound effect known to man on it.
And I have never heard a guitar sound better comming out of an amp than my own guitar.
Infact my adjustments sound better than Claptons guitar and it seems everyone still wants his sound.

Like I said I know sound engineering, and I get the sounds I want, I do not dream about it, I know what I am talking about here.I know how to get those perfect guitar tones in just a matter of minutes opn any sound board of mixer.
You see Jay the sound is in my head not in the board. I heard the sound and I know what to do.
All I can say is this.........
      If someone out there is dreaming of becomming a professional guitarist and singer, then do it, there are ways around the huge money problems of having to record a CD or DVD.
Anyways my new CD will be selling world wide later this year on that CD will be 4 songs recorded on the older RP300 I have, and I dare anyone to hear any hiss on my CD, My CD is warm and full of life.
It can be done people it's not impossible.
Infact it's very possible.....the RP350 is the cleanest sound you're going to find.....for any style and sound effects you need...you can run up to 8 effects at once on the older RP unit and the new one........I'd have to go back and count........but it's unreal....what can be done.
If you don't believe me...demo one at the guitar center.
You will not find a better unit for the money..........and if you did, it would cost 1000's more.

The truth is this.....Most people can't get the sound they want because they do not understand how Eq works and relates to reverb and digital delay.
Almost every effect known to man comes from digital delay,we just process the delay to make different effects.
such as reverb and choursing ,flange echo tap delays and ect.....and....every time you add another effect you have to go back and re-adjust your eq's,otherwise things can get very muddy.
      It's my feeling that untill a person understands equalizers and has used them for at least 5 years, then they have no real understanding of sound. In a pro studio every instrument must be eq different and I'm not talking about the eq on the board but a 15 or 31 band eq for every voice and every instrument on routed on every channel of a mixing consol.

     Anyways.... what the RP 350 gives someone on a limited buget is this, it has every studio effect with equalizers and sweep-able mid range from 500 to 3000.
There's so many possiblities to program on an RP350 that it would take years for the average person to master it totally.

Like I said I know a lot about sound and have recorded many others and have run sound systems for over 2000 singers in concerts over the years and a few of them world class singers and musicains
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You see....... don't believe in just being this big time guitar guy who serves the Lord only with my guitar, but there's a reason why we serve the Lord with our music and that's the help others through Jesus.
So please don't think I am comming down hard on you Jay.
But my guitar takes me places, I have helped feed the hungry,I never take money for my concerts ever,I have taught the poor to play music,I have pack truck loads of food,only to show up at night and do a concert when I was dead tired.......and yes I run sound systems for other people when they need help.

So understand what I am saying, with the best intentions here and I am telling people how to get the job done here quick and fast and be sounding like a pro. I know I can go anywhere with just my amp an acoustic or electric guitar and a RP300 and blow almost any guitar player in the country off the map............geeee I can stand alone on an acoustic guitar all night.....without a band....or I can play with a band.
I am ranked very high in some circles on guitar.
That's not bragging, that's pure fact,and If I can do it...........so can others who read this.
I want people out there to use their talent, and enjoy it.
   
   Next as for the acoustic guitar, I'd say if your guitar is booming and your 1 foot away then you really need to study how to eq instruments, I could but a condensor mic 2 inches from a guitar hole and not get it boomy.
I'd say your very young and have a lot to learn.
The average distance from a Mic is 6 inches up to a foot away.
BUt remember this, in the old days we use to put those mics inside the guitars. This was many years ago, but we learned control.....we experimented and we learned how to do it right.
If you mic the guitar from behind the hole, you will not get the sounds of your fingers on the frets.
A lot of people who have fret buzzes and squeeky strings may do this, but great guitar players hardly ever buzz a fret or squeek a string. It's all about style and techinque. And a Boomy guitar is a lack of understanding sound.
But hey don't take my word for it......talk to a sound tech, see what they they.
What I learned was this,nothing is impossible. and if you want to be the best, you have to be better than the best.
You have to learn to take chances in your recording and experiment.....this is what Clapton did,this is what Hendrix did...this is what Les Paul did. Need I say more.

          Dream the dream the Lord gave you, and you can do anything.
                        C ya Jordan Rivers

http://jordanriversguitarforum.blogspot.com/

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. P.S. I know some people are going to think I am bragging here......but Jay really is talking out his ear and I had to respond to that. Because his statment are far from the truth as it can get.

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[gtrdave]

. P.S. I know some people are going to think I am bragging here...

No, not at all. You have opinions just like everyone else.
The difference is that you use more words than the average urban telephone book to express those opinions and, like others, your opinions are not to be confused with fact. 

[jlynnb1]

Hi Jay, sorry but I have to respond to what you're saying because you're way off base.

I have been in music for many years and I am also a professional sound engineer.And professional Guitarist and singer.
If you have the knowelge I do you can get great pro quality from sound gear.But you need to understand how to use it.


I myself play guitar on a world class level.
I have some of the best equipment around. And one day I may put some pictures of my studio on my web site.I have the pictures already taken for my new video we are working on.So maybe I'll post them up.
Just so you know I am not a fake and not pulling anyones leg here......even though Jay thinks I am....


So understand what I am saying, with the best intentions here and I am telling people how to get the job done here quick and fast and be sounding like a pro. I know I can go anywhere with just my amp an acoustic or electric guitar and a RP300 and blow almost any guitar player in the country off the map............geeee I can stand alone on an acoustic guitar all night.....without a band....or I can play with a band.
I am ranked very high in some circles on guitar.
That's not bragging, that's pure fact,and If I can do it...........so can others who read this.
.
. P.S. I know some people are going to think I am bragging here......but Jay really is talking out his ear and I had to respond to that. Because his statment are far from the truth as it can get.

.
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I'm sorry....but I have to cry foul here. You say you aren't bragging....but your whole post (almost all of your posts) are filled with arrogance and a condescending tone. You state your opinions as unquestionable facts. IF someone does question you immediately begin to talk about how amazing and knowledgeable you are and how they are clueless. On your blog you have yourself listen in polls above almost every influential guitar player in the history of guitar playing.

You have a right to state your opinion....but to state yours as the only one worthy of consideration while reducing any opinion that conflicts yours as ignorant and uninformed just won't fly.

[funkStrat_97]

a 365 watt amp...interesting....

That's got to be a typo...although high powered amps are common for bass.  But then again, Fender's Metal Head 500 is rated at 550 watts...and solid state too.

[Rown]

YEA; I have a Crate 15" practice amp,anyone like to try that??How in the world, did PRINCE GET LEFT OFF THAT LIST.Keith Richards made the LIST.Man give me a BREAK The amp is great,you can only hear it hiss,when you turn it on.

[JayP5150]

I am neither young, nor ignorant. I know what I like. I don't like digital.

I don't claim to know everything, but my father is a sound engineer, and if I have questions, it's a phone call away.

If I'd prefer to mic my guitar so I don't have to EQ the dickens out of it to get back to how it's supposed to sound, then that's my prerogative.

I wasn't trying to berate you, I've just never been impressed with anything Digitech I've encountered--even the big, honkin' GNX hyped-up thing they've got out. Yes, the RP I used to have was a lower, cheap-o model (it was a gift, BTW, I would have never bought a digital processor, personally).

I ended my post with a "your mileage may vary," didn't I?

You're mileage varied... chill out a bit. Goodness...

[Julie spivey]

YEA; I have a Crate 15" practice amp,anyone like to try that??How in the world, did PRINCE GET LEFT OFF THAT LIST.Keith Richards made the LIST.Man give me a BREAK The amp is great,you can only hear it hiss,when you turn it on.

      toooooooo funnnnnny!!!!!

[Jordan Rivers]

   AS far as rankings go...head on over to topix.com and vote for your favorite guitar hero, also I am sorry I am leading the polls there...........but that's life.
    But you can make a difference right now..............please go vote for your guitar hero's.
I learned about that voting about 30 days ago, I guess it's been going on for months now.
I really don't care much about rankings. But some people seem to.
But I won't back away from it either. I have more backbone than that.


    And as for Digitech RP 350 have any of you really tried it out, or are you just blowing smoke.
Because I smell a smoke screen here.
In the past digitech didn't make great effect processors and I admit that....100%, but times have changed.

Back in the early 1970's nobody wanted a Honda car .............then suddenly Honda got better over a 10 year period.....and now tons people own them now and have for years.
Yet years ago Honda's were broken down junky cars even when they were new, they just didn't last.........but no longer are they junk. Millions own them. So take a lesson from that.

Companies do grow and get better.And as they grow research is increased and products become better.
Digitech is one such company.So do yourselves a favor...and check them out.


Any how....you don't have believe me if you choose not to ......
Yet I know someone out there will hear my voice......and take this to heart and find an RP350 and they'll love it.
So posting here is not a total waste.

Next.....maybe It's better....that I leave this forum so not to cause trouble for your little online guitar club..........when I first came here I really loved the forum,I think it's an awesome place to talk, but Jay  trying to Flame me, and other's telling me what I know is wrong....well..I realize this is just a guitar club .....and they want to be in charge of it all......with thier opinions.
And I am not going to start a guitar war online in the name of the Lord, because that's uncalled for and a total waste of the Lords time.

  Also If I am in your town or city playing....look me up....I love to meet people.
So don't stay mad at me....you all take care now....

                       C ya
                  Jordan Rivers  or visit me at http://jordanriversguitarforum.blogspot.com/

[jlynnb1]

   AS far as rankings go...head on over to topix.com and vote for your favorite guitar hero, also I am sorry I am leading the polls there...........but that's life.
    But you can make a difference right now..............please go vote for your guitar hero's.
I learned about that voting about 30 days ago, I guess it's been going on for months now.
I really don't care much about rankings. But some people seem to.
But I won't back away from it either. I have more backbone than that.


    And as for Digitech RP 350 have any of you really tried it out, or are you just blowing smoke.
Because I smell a smoke screen here.
In the past digitech didn't make great effect processors and I admit that....100%, but times have changed.

Back in the early 1970's nobody wanted a Honda car .............then suddenly Honda got better over a 10 year period.....and now tons people own them now and have for years.
Yet years ago Honda's were broken down junky cars even when they were new, they just didn't last.........but no longer are they junk. Millions own them. So take a lesson from that.

Companies do grow and get better.And as they grow research is increased and products become better.
Digitech is one such company.So do yourselves a favor...and check them out.


Any how....you don't have believe me if you choose not to ......
Yet I know someone out there will hear my voice......and take this to heart and find an RP350 and they'll love it.
So posting here is not a total waste.

Next.....maybe It's better....that I leave this forum so not to cause trouble for your little online guitar club..........when I first came here I really loved the forum,I think it's an awesome place to talk, but Jay  trying to Flame me, and other's telling me what I know is wrong....well..I realize this is just a guitar club .....and they want to be in charge of it all......with thier opinions.
And I am not going to start a guitar war online in the name of the Lord, because that's uncalled for and a total waste of the Lords time.

  Also If I am in your town or city playing....look me up....I love to meet people.
So don't stay mad at me....you all take care now....

                       C ya
                  Jordan Rivers  or visit me at http://jordanriversguitarforum.blogspot.com/

it's interesting to me that you are only able to see wrong in others and take zero accountability for your own words/attitudes.

no one is flaming you. no one is attacking you. you have just been called to the carpet on the tone of your replies and on your insistence at being the only one whose information or opinion is correct.

this isn't about a club or about anyone having any sort of power.....we just strive to treat one another as equals and to value one another's opinions....whether we agree with them or not.