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Brittsings87

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Women Preachers
« on: March 20, 2008, 11:06:06 PM »
  Well, I'm not sure if this was already posted, seeing that I'm a newbie and all!  ;D

 I was watching a youtube clip of a woman preaching, and I scrowlled down and read one of the comments which said "God has ordained that men are to feed the whole flock of God when it gathers". And they gave this scripture......

1Timothy 2:12-14 - I do not permit a woman to teach over a manor to have authority over a man, she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

 Then I read another comment....... "Women do have the authority to preach the Word of God. It states in Acts 2:17-18 "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

 
 I understand that there are alot of women who are ministers, prophetess, evangilists etc. But I noticed that alot of churches don't allow or don't believe that women should pastor a church, while other churches (or different denominations) do feel or believe that it is indeed okay for women to pastor a church.

I guess I'm just curious to know why its like that for some churches? And is it okay to have a woman pastor a church? Because I believe that God doesn't look at the gender but the spirit, and he uses whoever he wants to use. (But thats just my opinion)

Offline csedwards2

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 11:14:24 PM »

Offline divinemusician

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 11:20:48 PM »
Well I know I am aboout to get bashed for this one. So I am going to say it as clear as I can. I joined the Church of God by Faith right after my father was saved when I was 12 and all I heard was women can't be preachers... I was mad hot... who are they to tell us but the more I grew in Christ I understood.

I don't believe women should be sol pastors of a church. I feel as in the house she should have a covering a man over her. some may aruge that God is her covering. if that is the case he would have not even bothered to make man over the housed and He/ God would have just been the covering. I feel if a woman is a part of a ministry and she is the pastor over one of the churches associated with that mnistry as long as her head is a man she is good.

A lot of people like to throw that Acts 2:17-18 "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
but if they read a prophet and a preacher and a pastor are all different in the body of Christ. I feel and whole heartedly believe a woman can preach (just simply telling the good news and teaching the word of God), they can Prophsey (giving direction on what God said, says, or has a word from God to a certain person, group, etc) but I don't feel they should be solely pastors (having to be watchman over the souls of Gods people)

I knwo people going to bash me for this one, lol. but to God be the glory...
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Offline SirTJ

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2008, 11:32:53 PM »
A lot of people like to throw that Acts 2:17-18 "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
but if they read a prophet and a preacher and a pastor are all different in the body of Christ. I feel and whole heartedly believe a woman can preach (just simply telling the good news and teaching the word of God), they can Prophsey (giving direction on what God said, says, or has a word from God to a certain person, group, etc) but I don't feel they should be solely pastors (having to be watchman over the souls of Gods people)

I like the way you put that.

Offline csedwards2

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2008, 11:37:32 PM »
Well I know I am aboout to get bashed for this one. So I am going to say it as clear as I can. I joined the Church of God by Faith right after my father was saved when I was 12 and all I heard was women can't be preachers... I was mad hot... who are they to tell us but the more I grew in Christ I understood.

I don't believe women should be sol pastors of a church. I feel as in the house she should have a covering a man over her. some may aruge that God is her covering. if that is the case he would have not even bothered to make man over the housed and He/ God would have just been the covering. I feel if a woman is a part of a ministry and she is the pastor over one of the churches associated with that mnistry as long as her head is a man she is good.

A lot of people like to throw that Acts 2:17-18 "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
but if they read a prophet and a preacher and a pastor are all different in the body of Christ. I feel and whole heartedly believe a woman can preach (just simply telling the good news and teaching the word of God), they can Prophsey (giving direction on what God said, says, or has a word from God to a certain person, group, etc) but I don't feel they should be solely pastors (having to be watchman over the souls of Gods people)

I knwo people going to bash me for this one, lol. but to God be the glory...

no bashing hear sister.

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Offline B3Wannabe

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2008, 11:55:57 PM »
Well I know I am aboout to get bashed for this one. So I am going to say it as clear as I can. I joined the Church of God by Faith right after my father was saved when I was 12 and all I heard was women can't be preachers... I was mad hot... who are they to tell us but the more I grew in Christ I understood.

I don't believe women should be sol pastors of a church. I feel as in the house she should have a covering a man over her. some may aruge that God is her covering. if that is the case he would have not even bothered to make man over the housed and He/ God would have just been the covering. I feel if a woman is a part of a ministry and she is the pastor over one of the churches associated with that mnistry as long as her head is a man she is good.

A lot of people like to throw that Acts 2:17-18 "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
but if they read a prophet and a preacher and a pastor are all different in the body of Christ. I feel and whole heartedly believe a woman can preach (just simply telling the good news and teaching the word of God), they can Prophsey (giving direction on what God said, says, or has a word from God to a certain person, group, etc) but I don't feel they should be solely pastors (having to be watchman over the souls of Gods people)

I knwo people going to bash me for this one, lol. but to God be the glory...






I've listened to women say "I don't need a man" or things along that line. It took me a while, as a male to understand my full role as a husband. It's not as easy as it seems. I believe that if I am the head of the family, then ultimately everything that goes on in the house is my responsibility. Not that it's a dictatorship, but that I as the husband have to answer to God for things that I allow to happen in my house/family. It is my job to lead the family into what God would have us to do, as a pastor would lead the church. I have to pray constantly to ensure that I'm not only don't what God says but that I'm also meeting the needs of my family....as a pastor would do. This is why I believe that marriage isn't some thing you get into on a whim.

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 12:13:08 AM »



I've listened to women say "I don't need a man" or things along that line. It took me a while, as a male to understand my full role as a husband. It's not as easy as it seems. I believe that if I am the head of the family, then ultimately everything that goes on in the house is my responsibility. Not that it's a dictatorship, but that I as the husband have to answer to God for things that I allow to happen in my house/family. It is my job to lead the family into what God would have us to do, as a pastor would lead the church. I have to pray constantly to ensure that I'm not only don't what God says but that I'm also meeting the needs of my family....as a pastor would do. This is why I believe that marriage isn't some thing you get into on a whim.


I agree
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Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 12:28:02 AM »
Well, I'm also gonna stand in the "agree" line.

I would never join a church where a woman is the sole pastor.  It's just not my preference, and it's one of the few things I can't let go of from my Apostolic upbringing.  :-\  I don't mind a female co-pastor, elder, evangelist, minister, or whatever... but when they start overseeing and bishoping (made-up word... lol) and apostling (another one) and all that, I just can't be down.  There are quite a few pastors in Atlanta whose churches I would've joined IF ONLY they weren't pastored by women (Deeper Life in Christ is one... Victory Christian Center is another). Both women are amazing preachers and leaders, but I just can't be down like that.  Personally.  Partially for the reasons Divine Musician outlined, and partially because of my personal comfort level, which is admittedly based on my traditional upbringing.

However, I want to raise a point that may not have been considered.

There is an EXCELLENT female pastor I know of (she actually has a couple of members here on LGM), and she said one day that she doesn't believe in women pastors herself, neither does her bishop (who is male).  She said that the Lord revealed to her that her pastorate is temporary, and it is only to be held by her until the man who is supposed to pastor steps into his rightful position in Christ.  She went on to say that there are too many men who aren't answering the call, aren't fulfilling their spiritual duties, aren't living lives committed to Christ... she said that there just aren't enough men in the will of God, and if a man won't do the work of the Lord, He'll use whoever is willing and available.

Now, I can't begin to tell y'all how anointed this woman is.  She is the real deal, not one of these televangelist folks or profitesses or frauds who just say something to get a $100 offering out of you.  This lady is phenomenal.

What y'all think about her take?
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Offline divinemusician

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 12:36:35 AM »
 Lawd did we run the men away, lol. No but I seriously see her point of views... and those are views that can't be argued well not argued but you get me.
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Offline Mysteryman

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 12:55:25 AM »
She went on to say that there are too many men who aren't answering the call, aren't fulfilling their spiritual duties, aren't living lives committed to Christ... she said that there just aren't enough men in the will of God, and if a man won't do the work of the Lord

I really dont like when women say this. I think there are brothers out there ready to work just they are not where people think they should be spiritually. I have seen it with my own eyes. There was a brother at my church praying during a women's service and he was praying. Some of the sisters were looking at him like he wasnt saying nothing I guess because he wasnt hacking and screaming. Reason I know because I was playing. :D

Many women are already looking for brothers to fail so when he does something wrong they have an excuse. Some won't take up that role as a help meet for man. Brothers get weak, make mistakes, need encouragement many women dont know the power they have when they support a man. (The brothers know what Im talking about.)
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Offline divinemusician

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 12:57:44 AM »
I agree there too Mysteryman.. I can only speak for me. One thing I strive to be when I get married and I am making the provisions now is simply a PROVERBS 31.
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Offline Mysteryman

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 01:00:06 AM »
I definitely dont want no hacking and spitting sister. LOL :D
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Offline musallio

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 07:13:46 AM »
Enter musallio in the house:

wo-ryt guys, interesting stuff you've said here ;D

But I didn't hear anyone make a single mention of the CONTEXT

ie...Pre-text----> the actual verse----> & the post-text..==CONTEXT..

I don' intend to start an argument; merely to bring another perspective from other theological thoughts on the verse/ message..

BTW..I'm also from a pentecostal background & churched from a young age until 1 day Christ became my friend....So yes, back in the day the preachers would read that verse & say God doesn't want female preachers etc..

problem #1:

We need to differenti8 btwn a preacher & a pastor.
We can all preach (by talking)..just a matter of asking me to go up there & tell people to repent..
But pastoring is something else (I'm sure I need not explain..)...Also note that a pastor can be a pastor but barely preach--i.o.w. they just foresee that the sheep are fed the right diet.

side note: Sometimes I would question myself (& still do): Why are most men prayer-lazy ?/? :'( compared to most women..I'm not saying that all women are more faithful than men, because 1 can also pray outside God's Will  ::)(That's anada thread of it's own).

Back to the context:

So Paul, is approached by Timothy, with all the disorder & perils taking place in the church..

PRE-TEXT: (I'm trying to rightly divide the Word (as prescribed in 2Tim.2:15))

Jewish Hsitory:

...Timothy is in a Jewish community...there are also gentiles in the house who are now fellowshipping in the church.
..How did church operate?
---The woman were not allowed into the MAIN WORSHIP AREA (imagine islams/ moslems today ;))..So the women would be in a seperate room while the men worshipped.
So it would happen that the women could hear some of the issues that the men were debating in the worship area...
Some issues that were causing division were the issues of whether Paul or Apollos were the ppl to follow (& many other issues etc..)
With the women hearing all the debates etc, they would now argue amongs themselves..& disturbing the worship in the process! --(read 2Tim.2 :14,16)

With this being said, we now know where the church was at the time (other issues: for instance, see verse 9:  9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,

Would this apply today?? ?/?-The short answer is Yes & No (but this is shallow..read on & see why).

Yes because when we study the principle behind that, it has more meaning than just braided hair today..It applies directly to the things that are vulgar in today's context..braided hair is quite ok now & there is really nothing vulgar about it..but looking back then, it was something that could have been associated with the prostitutes of that time..(so 1 could say no for this reason, but I admit that it is babe-like thinking, because the Spirit doesn't merely give us rules, but principles to live by, hence the need for Holy Ghost's necessity to assist us in intepreting each part of scripture.

Wo-ryty, where am I now...

Ok, marching on2 the actual verses:

I've included verse 11 on purpose because the subsequent verses only expand on it (rimemba that back then the was no such thing as verses..this was merely a God Inspired letter..the verse serve to help us give reference.)..

 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing?if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

There are many levels in which 1 can & should look at this message contained in these verses, but the final test must be that it doesn't contradict/ it is in line with God's Will/ consistent message of the Gospel..

[just as a sidenote, read 2Tim.2:24-26..what I want to highlight there is that God's Word actually requires that if we call ourselves the Lord's servants, we MUST be able to teach... :-X]

wokay, back to these passage!

4 the reasons explained in the Pre-text (see above), Paul instructs/ commends that the women be quiet.

BUT THEN, he also goes on to mention how sin 1st came into the world (ie, through a woman's sinning 1st ) & how God had formed Adam (the male) 1st, for a reason..
--The reason being that the man should have authority over the women (sidenote: authority doesn't mean dictatorship, like B3 has mentioned earlier..It means Responsiblities!!!! just like how your finance director has authority over you if you are an accountant..that authority means that s/he foresees that you carry out your tasks effectively & effeciently..& also ensures that your needs as some1 under his/ her authority...ok point taken :P)

So Paul is saying: Look man, I understand that there are divided camps here..1 is saying that we should have Mrs Israelite preaching to us because she prays so much..The other camp is saying, No ways we gonna have a woman preach to us as men..God made us heads..So Paul says yes, God has ordained men to be higher than woman..(in accountability gus!! not brains etc ;D)..& the women should account to their hubbies.

It's so amazing how God's Word Never Contradicts itself:

If the message written by Paul was saying that women should shet up (as Vonne'd say), then all pentecostals (& all churches professing to preach christ) would be in very very big trouble with God because I'm sure most of them allow women to have a say at what should happen at church etc)..

But then God, in all His wisdom, was saying to the women out there..U better shet up & nt disturb the worship..but if you have something to say, then bring it up with your hubby @ home so that there won't be confused chatter amongst you as women in the waiting rooms..in this way, the woman's voice HAS ALWAYS BEEN REPRESENTED AT CHURCH..just that God is a God of order


*takes a breather*

*phew, I'm back..where was I??*

wo-ryt, lets take on the POST-TEXT:

15But women will be saved through childbearing?if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

read also the whole of 2Tim.3

This chapter spells out the characterists/ the ideals that should be found in a suitable leader of the church.

Back then, it was rare to find a woman running a household (if ever!!)..even if your spouse passed away, then his brother was obliged to look after you..in their Jewish customs.

Amongst other things that chapter 3 says:

1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

This chapter throws in a whole lota questions..1 of them, for instance, what about the pastors/ overseers who don't have kids; those who are recent converts, although they are males ?/? ?/?
Just a thought.

& then what about the change in the style of worship now that women can fellowship in the same place as men ?/? ?/? ::) ?/?( Do they not now know the happenings in the church that they should be able to preach ?/? ?/?)

Please note, I am not saying that women should pastor churches..nor am I saying they shouldn't..But I believe that Holy Ghost works in mysterious ways..

But I just want you to examine if 1Tim.3 also applies to women. :-\

I've already said toooooo much, so let me shet up b4 my a/c is disabled ;D



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Offline baggettcindy

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 07:49:46 AM »
Well....I've been under two female pastors while I was stationed at Germany.  In one case, she was pretty much all that was available....it was a small/tiny church.  I don't have a problem with women pastors.  A lot of them started the early churches.

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 08:04:58 AM »
  Well, I'm not sure if this was already posted, seeing that I'm a newbie and all!  ;D

 I was watching a youtube clip of a woman preaching, and I scrowlled down and read one of the comments which said "God has ordained that men are to feed the whole flock of God when it gathers". And they gave this scripture......

1Timothy 2:12-14 - I do not permit a woman to teach over a manor to have authority over a man, she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

 Then I read another comment....... "Women do have the authority to preach the Word of God. It states in Acts 2:17-18 "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

 
 I understand that there are alot of women who are ministers, prophetess, evangilists etc. But I noticed that alot of churches don't allow or don't believe that women should pastor a church, while other churches (or different denominations) do feel or believe that it is indeed okay for women to pastor a church.

I guess I'm just curious to know why its like that for some churches? And is it okay to have a woman pastor a church? Because I believe that God doesn't look at the gender but the spirit, and he uses whoever he wants to use. (But thats just my opinion)

I agree
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Offline Fenix

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2008, 08:09:34 AM »
My pastor is a woman and i have no issue with it. She is so family oriented, it's crazy. She is all about the man being the head and the woman submitting and all that.

I would take a look at the relationship between the men and women in a church where the head pastor is a woman. If the woman go around all pompous and what-not and the men are subjects, then there is an issue.

If however the men are upheld and honored and the women are treasured and respected, then i have no issues.

The main problem that i know of is that a lot of women pastors, while it may not be their intention, raise pompous women in the church. 
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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2008, 08:17:03 AM »
Well I know I am aboout to get bashed for this one. So I am going to say it as clear as I can. I joined the Church of God by Faith right after my father was saved when I was 12 and all I heard was women can't be preachers... I was mad hot... who are they to tell us but the more I grew in Christ I understood.

I don't believe women should be sol pastors of a church. I feel as in the house she should have a covering a man over her. some may aruge that God is her covering. if that is the case he would have not even bothered to make man over the housed and He/ God would have just been the covering. I feel if a woman is a part of a ministry and she is the pastor over one of the churches associated with that mnistry as long as her head is a man she is good.

A lot of people like to throw that Acts 2:17-18 "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your young men will see visions,your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
but if they read a prophet and a preacher and a pastor are all different in the body of Christ. I feel and whole heartedly believe a woman can preach (just simply telling the good news and teaching the word of God), they can Prophsey (giving direction on what God said, says, or has a word from God to a certain person, group, etc) but I don't feel they should be solely pastors (having to be watchman over the souls of Gods people)

I knwo people going to bash me for this one, lol. but to God be the glory...



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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2008, 09:52:30 AM »
I really dont like when women say this. I think there are brothers out there ready to work just they are not where people think they should be spiritually. I have seen it with my own eyes. There was a brother at my church praying during a women's service and he was praying. Some of the sisters were looking at him like he wasnt saying nothing I guess because he wasnt hacking and screaming. Reason I know because I was playing. :D

Many women are already looking for brothers to fail so when he does something wrong they have an excuse. Some won't take up that role as a help meet for man. Brothers get weak, make mistakes, need encouragement many women dont know the power they have when they support a man. (The brothers know what Im talking about.)



i agree with you brother... or some and i repeat some women have bad relationships and brings this into the church (i.e a male as head) i have seen first hand a male get up and pray hard and true and see the women just sit there and a women get up and say the same thing and everybody jumping and running all over the room. it is a shame we have placed personal preference on who we allow to let in or not just due to being a male or female. To place my 1 cent in here I believe God uses everyone, i can also say that the reason God may use or place a female as pastor is cause some males are not where they need to be in him. 

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2008, 09:55:17 AM »
I really dont like when women say this. I think there are brothers out there ready to work just they are not where people think they should be spiritually.



i agree with you brother... or some and i repeat some women have bad relationships and brings this into the church (i.e a male as head) i have seen first hand a male get up and pray hard and true and see the women just sit there and a women get up and say the same thing and everybody jumping and running all over the room. it is a shame we have placed personal preference on who we allow to let in or not just due to being a male or female.



Ummm.... that's cool and all, but let's not pretend it's not a well-known fact that OVERALL men are less active (and less present) in church than women are....  :-\

When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

joshuag

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Re: Women Preachers
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2008, 09:59:25 AM »
Ummm.... that's cool and all, but let's not pretend it's not a well-known fact that OVERALL men are less active (and less present) in church than women are....  :-\




oh i agree with you there..... 100 precent
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