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Author Topic: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?  (Read 8810 times)

Offline Teddie_Keys

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Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« on: April 21, 2008, 09:59:29 PM »
Can anyone please help me out?  I have been playing for about 2 years now and I have came a long way.  I do know quite a bit of theory.  However, when it comes down to playing........I have problems placing my diminished and dominate chords in my progressions.  When it comes to playing songs and I use them, I can understand why it was used in that spot of a song.  Especially the fully diminished chord (it seems to be used like a transition or a passing chord often from my experiances).  And like you T-Block I love the sound of a fully diminished chord!  I seem to only really use it when I am backing up a preacher or getting ready to go into shouting music.

So with that said......Let me share what I know so you I can maybe make it a little bit easier on you all.

Major Scale (using Key of C)

I - ii - iii - IV - V° - vi - vii

Cmaj - Dm - Em - Fmaj - Gmaj - Am - Bm

Now is the the most common place to use your dominant?
Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?

Take for instance this progression I have started playing..........

Key of F

A#, A, G, F, D

FM9 - played - F / G A C E
Gm9 - played - G / A Bb D F
A#M7 - played - A# / A# D F A
Am7 - played - A / A C E G
FM - played - F / A C F

Now how can anyone throw a dominant or fully diminished chord in there somehow?  You can add more chords in this progression if need be to demostrate there use.
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Offline elio

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 01:52:52 AM »
Now is the the most common place to use your dominate?
The most common, but not the only one. You seem to know your numbers, so I'll try and put it this way - a lot of movements can be reconduced to a ii-V-I, and the V can almost always be a dominant.
For example,
  • v-I-IV ("..I once was lost...") can be thought of as a ii-V-I, just moved down 3.5 tones. You can play Gmin7-Cdom7-F
  • vii-III-vi ("..never would've made it..")  can be thought of as a ii-V-i (note the minor "i"), just moved down 1.5 tones. You can play Bmin7b5-Edom7-Amin.
.
 
Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?
vii is usually half-diminished (Bmin7b5, B-D-F-A).

Every time you move up a tone (from I to ii, from IV to V, from V to vi) you can use diminished chords.
You can also use a dim chord half a step below where you want to get to.
See the progression below (I don't have a keyboard now, so it might be off).

The new chords are a bit over the top, but I hope this is helpful  ;D

Key of F

A#, A, G, F, D

FM9 - played - F / G A C E
F#dim - F# / F# A C D# (I to ii)
Gm9 - played - G / A Bb D F
Fdom7 - F / C D# F A
A#M7 - played - A# / A# D F A
G#dim - G# / G# B D F (half a step below the Amin)
Am7 - played - A / A C E G
FM - played - F / A C F

Offline musallio

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 02:20:24 AM »
well. Elio's done exactly what I was going to do.. 8)

i.o.w, use the #1 /b2 as a fully diminished chord when moving between I & ii.. (the transition between the minor & major sounds natural because of the "unstable" characteristics of the diminished chord).

Tip: for all the notes falling outside the major scale, you can actually play them as fully diminished chords & everything will sound cool ;) (ie, #1, b3, b5 ,#5) I guess that's why I like the chromatic scale so much!

But when doing preacher chords, if I play the chromatic scale, I prefer playing

I add 9/13-#Idim7-ii7-bIII11-iii11-IV7-bVdim7-V-#Vdim7-vi-ii-V-I...
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Offline T-Block

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 07:35:40 AM »
Now is the the most common place to use your dominate?
Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?


Answer to question #1:  V isn't the most common place to use a dominant chord, it is just the main/true dominant of your key.  You can make a dominant chord off any of the scale degrees.  When u play a dominant chord on any degree other than V, it is called a Secondary Dominant.  More info about that in these 2 links:

Secondary Dominants:  http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,37792.0.html

Secondary Dominant Chord Practice: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,43393.0.html

Answer to question 2:  This answer is gonna almost mirror the answer I gave above.  Since vii is naturally diminished already, it is usually expected that a diminished-type chord is played on that degree.  Diminished chords are tricky little critters cuz there are 3 kinds.  2 of them can be placed in a key, 1 of them can't be unless u know the root & resolution.

The regular diminished & half-diminished chords can be placed into a key.  The fully diminished chord can't be placed into a key because all of the notes are the same distance apart.  Since they have no key, they make great passing chords.  I tend to use fully dim. chords on:  #1/b2 (resolve to 2),  #2/b3 (resolve to 3),  #4/5 (resolve to 5),  #5/b6 (resolve to 6)
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Offline musallio

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 10:18:27 AM »
Answer to question #1:  V isn't the most common place to use a dominant chord, it is just the main/true dominant of your key.  You can make a dominant chord off any of the scale degrees.  When u play a dominant chord on any degree other than V, it is called a Secondary Dominant.  More info about that in these 2 links:

Secondary Dominants:  http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,37792.0.html

Secondary Dominant Chord Practice: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,43393.0.html

Answer to question 2:  This answer is gonna almost mirror the answer I gave above.  Since vii is naturally diminished already, it is usually expected that a diminished-type chord is played on that degree.  Diminished chords are tricky little critters cuz there are 3 kinds.  2 of them can be placed in a key, 1 of them can't be unless u know the root & resolution.

The regular diminished & half-diminished chords can be placed into a key.  The fully diminished chord can't be placed into a key because all of the notes are the same distance apart.  Since they have no key, they make great passing chords.  I tend to use fully dim. chords on:  #1/b2 (resolve to 2),  #2/b3 (resolve to 3),  #4/b5 (resolve to 5),  #5/b6 (resolve to 6)


 ;)

GREAT ANSWER..

Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..
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Offline T-Block

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 11:55:43 AM »
;)

GREAT ANSWER..

Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..

HAHAHAHAHA, u always wanna make everything a sticky.  :D
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2008, 12:19:03 PM »
;)

GREAT ANSWER..

Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..
Request granted. ;) Although, T-Block does have a point.
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Offline musallio

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2008, 03:20:44 PM »
HAHAHAHAHA, u always wanna make everything a sticky.  :D

LoL..

 :D I can't help it if I think the stuff is so useful!

I've stopped using colours on my thick textbooks becuase they end up looking like textbooks..

Request granted. ;) Although, T-Block does have a point.
Thanks sir :)
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Offline Teddie_Keys

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2008, 08:48:17 PM »
I'm at work right now so I haven't been able to put it to use.  However, reading it does seem to make sense.  For a dominate (secondary dominate if played other than V?)  it's wanting to resolve to the IV.  So I am going to attempt to apply this tonight in my practice time. 

And as for the Diminished or fully diminished, are common for passing.  The Diminished 7 is not as common necessarilly to the vii degree of the scale, but the half diminished is?  Diminished are commonly used to go up and down in whole steps as a filler is my understanding.

i.e.

C / C E G                  I
C# / C# E G              passing/filler (#1/b2)  C# half diminished
D / D F A                  ii

and visa versa?

I have a progression book that gives me a I - ii - iii - IV progression.  Can I add the V? before the IV?

I - ii - iii- V - IV

Like I said, I am at work.  So I can't test this out but, depending on the rhythm and what is going in my progression a natural Dominate can resolve to the IV comfortably?  However, a Secondary Dominate is an all together different thing in a way.

Secondary Dominate - changing a natural Minor to a Major
(ex.  playing a Emaj in a C scale, that Emaj chord is considered a Secondary Dominate)

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and become a better muscian.  So, thank you all for your input and help!   




 
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Offline elio

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2008, 11:47:27 PM »
You've got the general idea. As for your proposal:

I - ii - iii- V - IV

The question to ask is: how to get to IV? A way to do that is to think what the V of IV is. The answer is I. So you can do
I - ii - iii- Idom7 - IV

Offline T-Block

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2008, 03:05:54 PM »
i.e.

C / C E G                  I
C# / C# E G              passing/filler (#1/b2)  C# half diminished
D / D F A                  ii


Like I said, I am at work.  So I can't test this out but, depending on the rhythm and what is going in my progression a natural Dominate can resolve to the IV comfortably?  However, a Secondary Dominate is an all together different thing in a way.

Let me comment on this right here.  O.K., that C#-E-G is not a half-diminished chord, it is a regular diminished chord.  In order for a chord to be half-diminished u need a b7 on top of the diminished chord.  So, a C# half-dim chord would be:  C#-E-G-B

Now, the other thing is a dominant chord DOES NOT resolve to IV, it resloves to IV OF THE CHORD.  So, a secondary dominant works the same way as the true dominant.  The only difference is what degree ur forming a dominant chord on.  The true dominant is formed of V.  A dominant formed off any other scale degree is a secondary dominant.  They both peform the same function though.
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Offline Fenix

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 08:03:17 AM »
Request granted. ;) Although, T-Block does have a point.

I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominate Chords?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 08:11:20 AM »
I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.

 :D :D :D :D

You are one of the funniest cats on here, dude. Real Talk.  :D :D
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Offline Fenix

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 08:46:40 AM »
Well now that i know, i suppose groveling and floor-scraping is in order.
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Offline musallio

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2008, 07:21:25 AM »
:D :D :D :D

You are one of the funniest cats on here, dude. Real Talk.  :D :D

4 sho :D :D

I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.

Yeah, I always wondered why this dude was always online whenever I logged in..of course it clicked early that some characters who've camped here are mods ;D phew, for once I seem to  be alone here..yipee, no disputed statements from my side 4 once ;D
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Offline Chukme

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2012, 04:51:03 PM »
Hello friends. Am new here & am also a beginner. Please can some one direct me to where all one needs to know about playing the piano is treated step by step? Cus i don't really understand these posts. They seem advanced for me. I mean a place where i can learn the basic rudiments of piano theoritically and practically from the scratch..

Offline musallio

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Re: Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2012, 05:13:13 PM »
Hello friends. Am new here & am also a beginner. Please can some one direct me to where all one needs to know about playing the piano is treated step by step? Cus i don't really understand these posts. They seem advanced for me. I mean a place where i can learn the basic rudiments of piano theoritically and practically from the scratch..


Hi Chukme,

Welcome to LGM.

Spend the next month here:


http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,42768.0.html

http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php?board=47.0


All the best with your learning. If you are stuck, ask questions and the guys will gladly help ;)
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