PROSTR8, You commented...
“Let's be REAL!!! In how many of churches....if someone were to publicly express that they have committed adultery...if they have admitted to using cocaine...they would be embraced...people would receive them with open arms and do what they can to help them on the way to repentance. Things would go on as normal.....they would be hugged and sense the support and love of their fellow members. As long as they come, they would feel support. But would that same sense of love and support be extended to a person who openly admitted to being a homosexual? Would people REALLY believe them if they said that they had been delivered from homosexuality? More than likely...the answer is NO. They would forever be stigmatized and criticized...often to the point of feeling the need to leave the church. That's not what God desires for His people, and that's what God expects fro his church.”
I agree that we have a problem in some churches with demonstrating a loving and forgiving attitude toward certain individuals. Most people would think nothing of a person keeping an extra $50.00 bill they were mistakenly given by a cashier or bank teller. We don’t usually preach against making $15,000.00 under the table and not paying taxes on it, even though Jesus told us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. (Most musicians who play for small churches are paid under the table.) Some Christians leave Church after Sunday service and rush to the local ALL YOU CAN EAT restaurant and wolf down 7 plates of food and have 5 refills of soda. This is clearly gluttony, which the Bible says leads to poverty (Proverbs 23:21). It is also true that while we condemn nicotine, alcohol, and drug addictions, many Church members are addicted to caffeine, prescription medicines, chocolate, sodas, television and even pornography.
I try to inform people of how all sin robs us as believers. Sin in any form is deadly.
Hebrews 3:13
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
James 1:15
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
As Christians, we are to warn the Church of the affects of sin, and empower them to walk free from it. Christianity is a message of hope for all people, not a word of condemnation.
Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Most people in the Church can quote John 3:16, but don’t know what the next verse says.
John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
As the Church, our job is not to be ministers of condemnation, but of reconciliation.
II Corinthians 5:18
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
I do understand your position. I preach the love and compassion of God, but I also know that God is a holy God and requires holiness and obedience from His people.
I Peter 1:14-16
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
I John 2:3-5
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
I want to address a few of your statements and clarify/defend my position.
You said ...
“However...as much as you say it's no DIFFERENT than saying that God hates lying, the degree to which you spend time expressing that belief is quite the contrary. It's just not fair.”
The reason I spend so much time on the subject of homosexuality is because that is the subject at hand. If the post were on the subject of lying, I would have commented on the following verses in great detail:
Psalms 31:18, Psalms 52:3-4, Psalms 58:3, Proverbs 12:22, Proverbs 19:22, Proverbs 26:28, Ephesians 4:25, I Timothy 1:9-10, I John 2:4, 22, I John 4:20, Revelation 21:8.
The subject of this post was relating to the problem in the Church with homosexuality and the involvement of homosexuals in the music ministry. We can not discuss every problem that exists in the Church at the same time. The overall objective of this post was to get an idea of how those viewing this site felt about the issue of homosexuality in the Church (What’s wrong with the Church?). I don’t feel that it is wrong for us to discuss our convictions on the subject, nor is it wrong to condemn homosexuality, especially since the Bible condemns it. “...Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar...” (Romans 3:4)
Also, you stated...
“There is a MARKED difference between identifying something as a SIN and expressing your own PERSONAL DISLIKE for someone's behavior or lifestyle.”
Although I agree that there is a difference between identifying something as a SIN and expressing your own personal dislike or disgust for someone's behavior or lifestyle, my question is, “Is it wrong to dislike sin?”
The Bible tells us what our attitude should be towards evil things:
Romans 12:9
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
The Word Abhor comes from the Greek Word apostugéō which means to hate, abhor or detest with horror.
We are told that our love must be sincere and without hypocrisy, but we are also to hate that which is evil. This abhorrence is not limited to homosexuality; but homosexuality definitely qualifies as an “evil thing.” According to James 1:15, sin will ultimately destroy those who allow it to be birthed in them. Personally, I hate sin and what it does to people. That’s why I preach against it in every form, not just homosexuality.
You also made a very bold statement when you said...
“More often than not...whether you truly admit it or not....as far as the people you have "identified" as being homosexual...you hate them just as much as you hate the sin they practice and you wrongly hide behind the BIBLE to support your distaste for them.....and I am CALLING IT OUT!”
You are assuming that I hate the people I’ve identified as being homosexuals. To use your own words, “...are you merely basing your judgment on innuendo and rumor?” I think it is unfair of you to accuse me of hate, especially since I have not used the word hate nor any related terms in reference to homosexuals. I hate homosexuality just as God hates it, yet I have just as much compassion for homosexuals as I have for alcoholics, drug addicts, and liars. What you are “calling out” seems to reflect something you have personally experienced in the Church. It seems to me like you have been wounded in the Church by the judgmental attitudes of some person(s) in the Church. I’m not saying that I think you are a homosexual, but it seems awkward for you to make statements filled with assumption and innuendo after accusing me of doing the same.
I won’t pretend like there aren’t people in the Church who have a problem showing love to certain kinds of people, but that doesn’t make them wrong for taking a stand against sin (homosexuality).
I’m not hiding behind the Bible to support my distaste for homosexuality, I’m simply “earnestly contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.”
You also made an interesting statement...
“...you are quick to play GOD when administering judgment against one group of sinners while not exposing and expressing the same amount of disdain for those who engage in other types of sin.”
The Bible tells us how to deal with unrepentant sin in the Church. His instructions include more than love and forgiveness:
II Timothy 3:1-5
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.
The Bible is telling us to turn away from them. How much clearer can God be?
I Corinthians 5:1-2, 5, 9, 11-13
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Paul told us to do several things to this person practicing unrepentant sin:
• Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh
• Do not keep company with fornicators
• Put away from among yourselves that wicked person
Verses 12 and 13 are not very clear in the King James Version, but the NIV clears it up beautifully.
I Corinthians 5:12-13 NIV
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the Church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.
These instructions apply to all sin, including homosexuality. Of course, this must be balanced with Matthew 7:1-5, 18:15-17; Galatians 6:1-3; James 5:19; I John 1:8-10.
The Church has the right to make a judgment (decision) when it comes to a person practicing sin unrepentantly. If it is known that someone is involved in a sin that brings reproach on the Church, the Church has the right to expel them in obedience to the Word of God.
Judgment is committed to the saints. I also agree with 1stLady that when we judge, we are to JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY.
I Corinthians 6:1-2
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
I also want to respond to the charge of being irresponsible. You commented...
“...when you put information like that out there...in the position of leadership you are in...you only feed the flame of hatred in the ear of some uninformed person.... The examples you give give a DISTORTED view to more likely than not MISINFORMED SAINTS who will not see the whole context, yet will run rampant with it. That, my friend, is irresponsible.”
I’m not giving a distorted view of anything. This is reality. There are closet homosexuals dating heterosexual women in the Church who transmit diseases (some deadly). There are homosexuals in the Church that molest little boys (and girls). There are closet homosexuals in the hierarchy of many Christian denominations. All of these are facts. Look at the Catholic Church and its problem with homosexual priests who molest children.
You stated, “You are right......not all homosexuals are pedophiles and child molesters. In fact, ask any child protection agency and they will say the vast majority are heterosexual.”
At this point, I would like to give a few quotes from the Family Research Council article titled, “Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse.” Issue No.: 247 by Timothy J. Dailey, Ph. D.
However, despite efforts by homosexual activists to distance the gay lifestyle from pedophilia, there remains a disturbing connection between the two. This is because, by definition, male homosexuals are sexually attracted to other males. While many homosexuals may not seek young sexual partners, the evidence indicates that disproportionate numbers of gay men seek adolescent males or boys as sexual partners. In this paper we will consider the following evidence linking homosexuality to pedophilia:
• Pedophiles are invariably males: Almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men.
• Significant numbers of victims are males: Up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys (as opposed to girls).
• The 10 percent fallacy: Studies indicate that, contrary to the inaccurate but widely accepted claims of sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population.
• Homosexuals are over represented in child sex offenses: Individuals from the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children.
• Some homosexual activists defend the historic connection between homosexuality and pedophilia: Such activists consider the defense of "boy-lovers" to be a legitimate gay rights issue.
• Pedophile themes abound in homosexual literary culture: Gay fiction as well as serious academic treatises promote "intergenerational intimacy."
“The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls. To demonstrate this it is necessary to connect several statistics related to the problem of child sex abuse: 1) men are almost always the perpetrator; 2) up to one-third or more of child sex abuse cases are committed against boys; 3) less than three percent of the population are homosexuals. Thus, a tiny percentage of the population (homosexual men), commit one-third or more of the cases of child sexual molestation.”
“The actual percentage of child sexual abuse victims who are boys very likely exceeds the above estimates. Many researchers echo the view of the Journal of Child Psychiatry study, which refers to the "under-reporting of the incidence and prevalence of sexual abuse in boys."
“Homosexuals Comprise Less than 3 Percent of the Population.”
To read the entire article, go to
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS02E3I’m not trying to get people to hate homosexuals; but I’m not willing to change the reality of this issue either. No homosexuals should be allowed to corrupt the flow of worship in the Church, nor should they be put in a position to endanger anyone in the Church (male or female/adult or child).
The only reason I’m placing great emphasis on homosexuality if because, once again, this is the subject at hand. We’re not discussing preachers who prey on teenage girls in the Church. If that were the discussion, I would talk about one of my family members (female) that was raped by a male preacher in his 40’s when she was 16 years old. However, since the subject is homosexuality, this is where I spending my time.
I know that there are other issues in the Church. But I’m not willing to minimize what the Bible says about homosexuality, nor am I willing to compromise with the devil on this issue. It was wrong yesterday and it’s wrong today. I can’t lower God’s standard of holiness.
One of the problems I’m having with our discussion is that you have not once actually said that you are against homosexuality. You have not even agreed that it is a problem in the Church. While I agree with much of what you say, it seems that you almost justify homosexuality and condemn those of us who oppose it. It would be easier for me to receive what you are saying if you made it clear that you are against homosexuality and in agreement with what the Bible says on the subject. Maybe you would like to discuss whether or not homosexuality is a sin?
I’m having a hard time figuring out why you are so sympathetic towards homosexuals. You seem to be very defensive of them. In one of your previous replies, you made reference to that fact that you are not afraid to publicly share your viewpoint. Why would you need to be afraid to say that the Church needs to examine itself? This is an open forum?
Brother, I’m not writing any of this to attack you or to accuse you of anything. I just enjoy engaging in intelligent dialogue and defending the clear teaching of Scripture. I want to stress the fact that I’m not here to condemn; I’m just not willing to compromise.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the ABOMINABLE, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts,
A Holiness Preacher
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