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Author Topic: Piano players dont wait until you are on the organ to learn how to play it  (Read 8308 times)

Offline diverse379

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often i find myself on the organ playing away everything going fine then I have to play a song that I never played on the organ before and i find I have to play it piano style
because my left hand is not ready to play the chords smoothly

well now what I do is as soon As I have learned a song on the piano
I automatically begin to learn how to play it with left hand chords
and right hand melody

this way you are training yourself to be able to play the organ as spontaneously as you would your piano or keyboard.

maybe I am not a true organist but there are certain songs and keys that I find it frustrating to play on the organ

but now that I take the time to take a learned song and adapt it to the organ when at home
I think it helps me a great deal in handling myself on the organ

some things to get you started

learn how to play simple one four five moves

with your left hand using good voice leading
find a harmony book that teaches you this and just play the chord in your left hand
since they are simple triads they will fit well under a more advanced chord in your right hand

I took a harmony book from school
and I am learning all the progressions
in my left hand
this way my right hand is free to improvise over the changes
since it is a classical book
the changes revolve around 1 5 4 and some 2 and 6 chords

you will be surprised how many songs can be played with only these chords and nothing else

hope this helps some of you
To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline musallio

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Thanks for the lightbulb..I shall take your advice to heart.. :)
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Offline themidiroom

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I'm usually okay once I get beyond the fact that the song sounds a bit weird on organ compared to piano.
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Offline goodtoknow

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HEY BRUH, YOU THINK YOU CAN SEND ME SOME EXCERPTS FROM SOME OF THOSE BOOKS YOU HAVE!!!! i THANK YA AND GOD BLESS



often i find myself on the organ playing away everything going fine then I have to play a song that I never played on the organ before and i find I have to play it piano style
because my left hand is not ready to play the chords smoothly

well now what I do is as soon As I have learned a song on the piano
I automatically begin to learn how to play it with left hand chords
and right hand melody

this way you are training yourself to be able to play the organ as spontaneously as you would your piano or keyboard.

maybe I am not a true organist but there are certain songs and keys that I find it frustrating to play on the organ

but now that I take the time to take a learned song and adapt it to the organ when at home
I think it helps me a great deal in handling myself on the organ

some things to get you started

learn how to play simple one four five moves

with your left hand using good voice leading
find a harmony book that teaches you this and just play the chord in your left hand
since they are simple triads they will fit well under a more advanced chord in your right hand

I took a harmony book from school
and I am learning all the progressions
in my left hand
this way my right hand is free to improvise over the changes
since it is a classical book
the changes revolve around 1 5 4 and some 2 and 6 chords

you will be surprised how many songs can be played with only these chords and nothing else

hope this helps some of you
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Offline rayjohnson83

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HEY BRUH, YOU THINK YOU CAN SEND ME SOME EXCERPTS FROM SOME OF THOSE BOOKS YOU HAVE!!!! i THANK YA AND GOD BLESS



cosign ;D

Offline diverse379

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HEY BRUH, YOU THINK YOU CAN SEND ME SOME EXCERPTS FROM SOME OF THOSE BOOKS YOU HAVE!!!! i THANK YA AND GOD BLESS




i will put something together tomorrow
i may put it in another thread


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Offline meadowman

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This is a really good post!...helps me out a lot

Offline diverse379

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the post classical theory for left hand voicings  series 1 and 2 
is a direct result of the above post
There will be approximately 20 parts to this series
it starts out really basic and grows exponentially
To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline Virtuenow

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!
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 11:41:51 PM »
Thanks for the lightbulb..I shall take your advice to heart.. :)

Cool pic Musalio.  Could you explain whats going on w/your mum, dad and baby mus?!  Where were you all? 

Anyhoo, this is a good post.  I am sort of a beginner (not really anymore, but can I get the beginner pass?), and I still have not learned how to play the organ at all.  Although there is an organ at the church and I have been questioned about it.  Now...

I have a few questions:

1. How does the organ differ from the piano? 
2. How do those mysterious footpedals factor in? 
3. How often do you have to use them.  Is the transition from piano to organ rough or smooth??

Offline diverse379

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Re: !
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 07:46:25 AM »
Cool pic Musalio.  Could you explain whats going on w/your mum, dad and baby mus?!  Where were you all? 

Anyhoo, this is a good post.  I am sort of a beginner (not really anymore, but can I get the beginner pass?), and I still have not learned how to play the organ at all.  Although there is an organ at the church and I have been questioned about it.  Now...

I have a few questions:

1. How does the organ differ from the piano? 
2. How do those mysterious footpedals factor in? 
3. How often do you have to use them.  Is the transition from piano to organ rough or smooth??

I hope I can answer this question I will answer question one which will really answer question two
and part of question three


The organ is different from the piano
first because the tone sustains as long as you hold the note and releases as soon as you take your hand off

what this means to you is that since there is no pedal to sustain notes while your hands are of the keys
then that means you have to learn how to keep the notes connected  this is what will give you a smooth sound
sometimes you want to keep the notes choppy this is a matter of style


at the most advanced levels of organ playing
you will be playing the pedals with your feet

your left hand will be playing chords and your right hand will be playing either melodic chords
or melodies in intervals or single notes

if you have never played organ before
the best way to start out

is to set up the drawbars  (those brown and white levers you see there should be four sets of nine)


set them up so that you can have a strong bass sound on one manual  ()keyboard)
and a nice sound for chords on the other manual

ther are many ways to play an organ
right now I am exploring theatre style and classical organ
which is more about making your organ sound like an orchestra


I have at times explored heavily brooklyn style
which is really like playing rag time on the organ

to get to those foot pedals

they are your bass notes

so your feet will be playing bass lines on the organ

if you have never seen an organist do it
then your first time on the organ you will probably think it is impossible


but it is not it just takes time to get comfortable


here is my personal recommendation on how to get to a decent organ ability



first few weeks

play the organ like two keyboards

if you pull out the first three or four drawbars on the upper left
then you will have a nice strong bass sound and a balanced sound to play both hands on the upper manual

skip the next set of draw bars and pull out
the two white ones and the next black white and black
 and the last white about half way out

(experiment with leaving that last one in or out)

play with these two combinations
dont worry about the pedals

do use the volume pedal
and the leslie switch

to give you that whirly sound

points to note
you have to do your best to keep the sound connected the first thing I notice about keyboard players who try to play organ is they sound too choppy
connect the sound by trying to keep fingers in contact with the keys
as you go from chord to chord

next step

pull out one of the two brown draw bars
that sit in the middle of the two sets of nine

 ( try the left one first
pull it about 3/4 of the way out

now as you play the bass lines
tap on the pedal of the key you are in

just a short tap

try this over one of those devotional songs like cant nobody do me like jesus

the pedal will be acting as a drum beat almost
not necessarily like a bass note
if you keep it short enough
remember you are still playing the bass line with your left hand


this is a technique i see a lot of older organists use
and they will  sometimes move the bass note to whatever chord they are on


next step
sit on the bench so that your leg hangs over the G pedal
if you are about my size 5'11
it will appear that your pedals will line up with the lower manual

what you do at this level
is play the pedals to follow your left hand bass notes

your feet will be clumsy at this point
but your hands will cover your sloppy feet

and eventually your feet will be able to follow your hands

when they can it will be time to make the feet independent

to do this
begin to use your left hand to switich the leslie
as you play
switch it ever verse or ever two or three measures

this is called speed switching
and it will help you pay attention that your feet are holding down the groove properly

how do you play the pedals?
with your toes
and your heels

practice first just using your toes

this is actually the first way you learn on classical organ to play everything with your toes
then later you learn to use your heels on the white pedals and your toes on the black notes


ok now for the next stage

play the pedals with your feet
and take your two hands and play them on the lower manual
the left hand can duplicate what your right hand does

do this for now so that your left hand will become stronger at playing chords
since you will be using two hands on the manuals

you should use a lighter setting
maybe just pull out the two white ones

it will take a few months for your left hand to get strong enough to play songs on it's own
but be patient

what to do with your left hand once it gets strong

this is a loaded question and I cannot really answer that for you


you can play two note chords one note thirds and sevenths
three note clusters

four note voicings

partial notes to phatten the chord in the right hand

you can play single note melody in the right hand or in octaves

get a good book on organ playing

or some dvds on organ to give you a good starting place

good luck to you



To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline jgause2

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Re: !
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2008, 08:05:50 AM »

get a good book on organ playing

or some dvds on organ to give you a good starting place

good luck to you



u have any good recommendations??
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Offline diverse379

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Re: !
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 10:39:40 AM »

u have any good recommendations??

I have a couple of recommendations it all depends on what you are looking to achieve
if you just want to sound good on the hammond

then try complete hammond

there are many others I could recommend but like I said it depends on what you are looking to achieve

for example if you can read then i would recommend the harold gleason method of organ playing

excellent for all around organ technique


To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline musallio

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Re: !
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2008, 02:36:31 PM »
Cool pic Musalio.  Could you explain whats going on w/your mum, dad and baby mus?!  Where were you all? 


Hey Virtue

Long time no see from U..god 2 c & hear from U 8)

You really want me to explain what's happening there? Ok, I'll have to ask mum or dad when they're up tomorrow.
1 explanation I got from them was that they just went hunting at this game reserve & they had the option to dress up as Khoi Sans, hence that look & daddio carrying the bow & arrows on his back

I don't know whether to believe it or not, but my dad tells me I saved his life that day: A rattle snake was creeping about 3 feet behind him while he was aiming at a rabbit not very far. Fortunately for him, my mum had left me to crawl around, so I saw this rattle & startin laughing at it (in my most babyish chuckle..hehehe)...The rattle saw that I was not budging a bit & it cowardly turned around when I reached out my chubby lil hands to give it a whisk (as I would do with our neighbor's lion cubs..If Mike Tyson really wanted to afford to keep a tiger pet, he should have emigrated to here :))..Mum says I cried hysterically when that rattle pulled out on me (so much for an enconter with a rattle itself! >:()

Anyway, mum says was it not for me being friendly with that poisonpisser, daddy would have reacted in a manner we don't even want to imagine & he would be... :(

[color=]Ok,  I hope Fenbox & C$$ don't read this!![/color]
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Offline diverse379

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great story

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline musallio

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great story



It wasn't so great  for the fam because they all think I'm alive just by His Grace! :D
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Offline Virtuenow

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Musallio, thanks for the welcome back and the fresh new story.  My computer was down for a while and I was really very busy w/work.  But I missed LGM!  I learned a few new songs in the meantime and also learned that I still need help!  Especially w/picking out bass lines and ad libbing.  Since then I am now teaching a small childrens choir.  This is a first for me and I will have a lot of questions coming up.  It is unbelievable teaching songs to people and trying to teach harmony. 

Now back to you.  This is quite an adventurous story you have shared.  I can't believe a 'lil tiny baby saved his papa's life like that.  What a warrior/cute baby!

Thanks Diverse379, great explanation there.  Who woulda' thunk you would answer all of my questions--and give a step-by-step. 

A few follow-up questions:

Do you use both feet on the pedals?  Why are there two layers of keys on the organ.  Do the bottom ones have a higher pitch (like the first octave on a piano)?  What is "doing a Leslie"?  You said you should do something w/leslie every 3 measures.  I have no idea what that means.  I did, however, notice that on youtube clips people are always moving their left hand and switching something while playing the organ.  It is quite distracting--especially since I don't know what they are doing!

Offline musallio

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Musallio, thanks for the welcome back and the fresh new story.  My computer was down for a while and I was really very busy w/work.  But I missed LGM!  I learned a few new songs in the meantime and also learned that I still need help!  Especially w/picking out bass lines and ad libbing.  Since then I am now teaching a small childrens choir.  This is a first for me and I will have a lot of questions coming up.  It is unbelievable teaching songs to people and trying to teach harmony. 

Now back to you.  This is quite an adventurous story you have shared.  I can't believe a 'lil tiny baby saved his papa's life like that.  What a warrior/cute baby!

Thanks Diverse379, great explanation there.  Who woulda' thunk you would answer all of my questions--and give a step-by-step. 

A few follow-up questions:

Do you use both feet on the pedals?  Why are there two layers of keys on the organ.  Do the bottom ones have a higher pitch (like the first octave on a piano)?  What is "doing a Leslie"?  You said you should do something w/leslie every 3 measures.  I have no idea what that means.  I did, however, notice that on youtube clips people are always moving their left hand and switching something while playing the organ.  It is quite distracting--especially since I don't know what they are doing!



Yeah, I always try by all means to hide the fact that I am a true warrior--one of the very few (if any) still roaming the surburbia of South Africa...
To keep true to my warrior-hood :P I try to make a biennial trip to Central Africa's forests to go & wrestle with some of the fiercest serpents in the continent..I really go there by faith..(I should post up some pics of me handling some of those 3metre cobras.
But this 1 time,  I felt really offended when the police manhandled me when I boarded a plane in that attire--they accused me of "public indecency" >:( SO much for "our treasured heritage & being proud of our culture" >:( Anyway, they confiscated my bushbuck leather wrap & gave me some cheap cotton rags >:(
Anyway, that's just a short story of my life :)

I like people like you Virtue--you ask really good questions & people like Diverse come up with excellent responses 8)

Thanks for everything Diverse..
Keep the questions coming Virtue..we all reap the benefits 8)
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Offline diverse379

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Musallio, thanks for the welcome back and the fresh new story.  My computer was down for a while and I was really very busy w/work.  But I missed LGM!  I learned a few new songs in the meantime and also learned that I still need help!  Especially w/picking out bass lines and ad libbing.  Since then I am now teaching a small childrens choir.  This is a first for me and I will have a lot of questions coming up.  It is unbelievable teaching songs to people and trying to teach harmony. 

Now back to you.  This is quite an adventurous story you have shared.  I can't believe a 'lil tiny baby saved his papa's life like that.  What a warrior/cute baby!

Thanks Diverse379, great explanation there.  Who woulda' thunk you would answer all of my questions--and give a step-by-step. 

A few follow-up questions:

Do you use both feet on the pedals?  Why are there two layers of keys on the organ.  Do the bottom ones have a higher pitch (like the first octave on a piano)?  What is "doing a Leslie"?  You said you should do something w/leslie every 3 measures.  I have no idea what that means.  I did, however, notice that on youtube clips people are always moving their left hand and switching something while playing the organ.  It is quite distracting--especially since I don't know what they are doing!
wow good questions

the two manuals (what you called layers are usually the same on a hammond
unless you have a B3 or a C3 in that case the upper manual has the ability to do some funky little things like percussion and harmonics  for soloing

but aside from that they are identical

on a pipe organ or a rogers or allen organ
the manuals are different because they have different sound sets

one manual is called a great the other a swell
some organs have four manuals
where the others are called
solo and choir

the organ was made to be able to duplicate an orchestra the hammond was invented to duplicate the pipe organ


so you can set the organs up like you want


the setting I gave you
will almost function like a the continuation of a piano

you control the octave of the manuals
by pulling out the drawbars
the first draw bar the brown one is the lowest pitch
the first white one is an octave above that one
the next white one is an octave above that
and each successive white drawbar
sounds an octave higher

so if you have one manual with the first brown pulled out
you can play a deeper sound  in your left hand
and if you want to play chords you will have to go higher up on the organ to play them without sounding muddy

if you start with the first white drawbar
you can play bigger chords without sounding muddy

remember there are nine drawbars
and many many combination

start with pulling out one brown on one manual and the white on the other

then begin to add drawbars little by little to start to experiment with your sound
when i say little by little
i mean pull one out centimeter by centimeter dont pull them all the way out


pedals>>
two feet or one
traditional organ teaches you to play both feet

i play with both feet on the pipe organ
but i tend to stick to one foot on the hammond
because my right foot keeps bumping
the the volume pedal

that is another thing
you should have a foot on the volume pedal bumping it a little to create the groove

leslie

the speaker that is attached to the organ is usually a leslie but not always

and if it is a good one like a 147 or a 144
it will have a motor that spins

when you switch that motor on
the motor spins and the sound swirls
and if you have your upper drawbaras pulle out
like the last white one and a few of the brown ones pulled out a little
maybe a half inch or so

you will hear that characteristic
hammond whirly swirly sound
sorry i dont know how else to describe it

usually you will have the switch on at all times during preacher chords
during shouts

and you may switch it on during climactic points in a song
or during the chorus and off during the verse

or switch it on during a word in the song
it takes the motor a minute to speed up so you have to switch it a little bit  before you need it

speed switching is when yo turn it on and off so the motor never gets to full speed and never actually stops it is sort of in between

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word

Offline Virtuenow

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Diverse I appreciate all the awesome info, I am going to have to put this plan into action. The next time I am in the same room with the "mysterious" organ, I must approach.  Boy, this will be a challenge.  Drawbars, leslies and ...what else did you say (*back to my notes*)??  Here goes!
 
Musallio...from rattlesnakes to cobras?  Don't tell me you are one of those snake dancers (w/shouting music in the background and all).  Dost thou tempt the tempter??  (Ooops!)

Offline diverse379

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Diverse I appreciate all the awesome info, I am going to have to put this plan into action. The next time I am in the same room with the "mysterious" organ, I must approach.  Boy, this will be a challenge.  Drawbars, leslies and ...what else did you say (*back to my notes*)??  Here goes!
 
Musallio...from rattlesnakes to cobras?  Don't tell me you are one of those snake dancers (w/shouting music in the background and all).  Dost thou tempt the tempter??  (Ooops!)
you are welcome

one final thought

when i was first starting out
there was a young boy who played organ at his church
the pedals didnt work so he just played
bass with his hand and chords with his other hand

well he sounded way funkier than I did
and i was humbled that he could do more with two hands than
I could do with two hands plus my feet


there were times when I would sit at a organ at a guest church and be forced to play with just two hands

because the pedals didnt work and was told i played better then usual

case in point

although technically pedals should be played

the organ can also be played with just the hands of course your goal should eventually be to play pedals well

dont worry if you cant right now just play at your level practice practice practice

To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word
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