Are some of these endorsing drum companys a scam??

[QCdrummer]

I know there was a topic similar to this already, but I wanted branch off and get a little more in detail on endorsing since I have been in contact with a company.

Now I know people who are endorsed who by no means are good enough to be endorsed! Granted they are small B level endorsements, but they are still endorsements.

If an unheard of company sells thier sets for $2,500 and tells you with your endorsement you can get 20% off the sets. How is that working in your favor? To me you are a customer who gets discounts, not an endorsee. Why would I spend $2,000 on a set that doesn't even sound all that great, when I can spend less and get the best DW, or Yamaha has to offer. And sure they will put you on thier website. But how big of a deal is that if nobody visits the website?

Why would a company give any level of endorsement to people who do not have that much potential or doesn't even play out that much? The answer I came up with is so that you will continue to order thier stuff (even if it is discounted to a crazy price), and advertise thier product. Then eventually they can take thier product mainstream.

Maybe I'm digging way too deep on this, but If I quit my day job and start my own drum company and people (who can barely play) are going to spend thousands of dollars on my products just so they can say they are endorsed by me, I would endorse them all day long, and put all kinds of pictures up on the website. This would be the quickest way to make a sale.

What do you guys think? Are all these small companys legit?  (Not talking about the stick, and cymbal brands) just mainly the real expensive stuff!

[min_amw]

Endorsement is not just about how well you play. A company is also interested in how big of an influence you can have on potenitial buyers. That influence can be playing out, doing clinics, or even just having the right contacts to get the company greater exposure.
Speaking of buying, there aren't many people out there that don't have to actually buy what they play. If you don't trust a company, don't bother trying to do business with them. If you don't believe in their product, don't bother trying to do business with them.

I guess what I'm saying is.....
The viewpoint on which that business agreement should be "What can I do for the company?" first. Most companies will take good care of you if they know that you are going to handle your end.

That's my 2 cents.

[BigFoot_BigThumb]

I would say the same thing min_amw.  In this day and age, it's about getting the product seen.  If a drummer is playing for a hot artist, then they are being seen quite a bit.  They know that the drummers are not watching the artist, they're looking at the drummer.  Just as athletes have some people buying the shoes that they wear, some musicians will buy a product that one of their favorites play with the hopes of being able to emulate them.  Sure, they may not be that great in some eyes, but the exposure is helping to move product.  Numbers are the bottom line. 

As far as discounts go, depending on your clout in the business, some guys just outright get free stuff.  I was once in discussions with a major manufacturer about an endorsement, and I was told that I could get gear at a 70% discount.  That's pretty good if you ask me.  The deal fell through because the tour did not happen due to business issues with the management of the artist I was playing for.  I owned one of their kits anyway that I paid for myself and I still own/play it because they make quality stuff that drew me to the brand in the first place before any chance of an endorsement.  The smaller companies cannot afford to give large discounts like the big boys.  If you really believe in the product, then you'll pay for it.  A true musician goes beyond the desire for recognition vs. wanting quality stuff.  So it comes down to what ou really want as a musician.

To stay on the main question, there is no real scam.  You just have to be smart and discerning in who you chose to like as a musician and know why you really like them.  For instance, I really enjoy Gerald Heyward, Aaron Spears, Brian Fraiser-Moore, and Teddy Campbell.  But I didn't go out and buy DW, Tama, or Yamaha kits just because of that.  Your choice of gear is up to what you really want to do as a musician.

[shall176]

I would not say there is a scam...Its business.  I will say that for some its bad business.  And its not limited to the small fledgling companies.  There is big name talent out there that are being used by the drum company, being "promised" whatever and in the mean time making them continue more for items than they should while others within the same company may not.  The artist may stay due to loyalty or whatever, or they may leave for greener pastures elsewhere...but that may not be fair. 

Smaller companies, as was mentioned, may not be able to afford to give up too much, as they may have a cash flow issue, or are struggling to break even...but I would also say that some of these guys may target young drummers who think "endorsing a drum company means you have arrived", and thus use them as well.  In the end its a business and you have to have good business sense.

Does having an endorsement make sense for me.  What can I do for them, and they do for me?  Can I afford to buy in?  WIll they be able to support my shows on the road.  Lots of questions need to be addressed.  In many cases people don't NEED endorsements, they just want them.  And in that case the price is set by what the market can bear.  People will charge the seemingly outragous proces as long as people will pay them.

[BigFoot_BigThumb]

I also should add, that sometimes the performing artist is the one that actually has an endorsement deal and the drummer just has to play that brand by default.  For instance, singer Pink has an endorsement with Spaun drums.  Have you ever seen her play?  But I bet you some female drummers have bought Spaun drums because of that.   

[SabianKnight]

There is no scam in the topic as questioned by the original poster. If their is a scam it is by the guys seeking endorsements as a way to get free or discounted gear. You show your loyalty by your investment. If you want to project a great sound you will study the qualities of a great sound: how to develop it and what is the best equipment to deliver/embody it. You will then invest with your heart and then with your money. If you are wise you will have sought wise counsel on the material, brand, price point, and retailer or factory direct options for procuring the item. You will chose the company with the most viable and expansive range for your greatest chance of growth within the brand.

Seeking the endorsement is no different and in fact should be based on the above info and your personal experiences with the companies product if not also your personal interaction with their company owners/designers/reps/"A-list" endorsers. If you will not spend your money on the product why seek or except the endorsement opportunity. If you cannot see yourself encouraging your best friend, or greatest mentor to purchase/invest in the product line why except the endorsement? Does your word/integrity not mean something of value/quality? If a product does not represent your character... your voice well, then why should you represent it?

Building a brand as all companies have to do requires establishing a standard of integrity and sticking to it by proving consistency in delivery on time of ahead of schedule, constantly improving oneself, and empowering the consumer to sound better, look better, and grow better through experimentation and inspiration. In doing this the companies have to determine their target market and what that potential client's need are. This has to be done while allowing the company to grow make a profit that can promote further growth/product development. This requires consumer loyalty and quality consumers... decisive, conscious consumer whom invest in their future, their potential, their dreams/visions. This type of consumer realizes that the acheivement of their goals require constant evaluation, self-examination, and the building of a quality supportive team. Point being the endorsee (artist/musician/producer/studio/tour) and the company/vendor is team situation with mutual benefits. Compare it to NASCAR where the driver has to be able to car ad push himself and the car to the winners circle while nurturing a growing relationship with the car and the crew. This nurturing environment is then enable to respond in order to competition performance, techological growth, driver growth, fan/media feedback.

If you are a brand mixer check your loyalty card.
If your buy rather than invest check your quality card.
If you more about your look than your ingrity then check your personal value.
With all this in mind, be honest about your motives and what proven value you bring to what you do.
The best stewards get the best  rewards... develop and guard your intgretity and unify with like-minded environments either as a dream builder or dream catcher and your name will be made great.

[QCdrummer]

Thanks for all the comments. I must admit that I got a little carried away and just wanted to say that I was endorsed just because I saw other people getting them. But if you don't like the sound, and don't like the prices they set, then why join them? Time to be a little more patient.

[BEATBOXERZ]

There is no scam in the topic as questioned by the original poster. If their is a scam it is by the guys seeking endorsements as a way to get free or discounted gear. You show your loyalty by your investment.

This sentence right here is Truth. No need to go any further.

[JFunky]

This sentence right here is Truth. No need to go any further.

...I thought the exact same thing popp.

[BEATBOXERZ]

...I thought the exact same thing popp.

 That's because we're Like minded people son  .

[BEATBOXERZ]

SK, you speak of building a brand. That is the exact reason why I'm not trippin' off an major endorsement from Zildjian, Vater, or Remo.  I rather build a brand then be an endorsee for a major. And besides all that, they don't need me...

[SabianKnight]

SK, you speak of building a brand. That is the exact reason why I'm not trippin' off an major endorsement from Zildjian, Vater, or Remo.  I rather build a brand then be an endorsee for a major. And besides all that, they don't need me...

If you build a strong brand in yourself then "They" will want you.

Just as folk want JORDAN, TIGER, OPHRAH, TRUMP, LEBRAN JAMES, WILL SMITH, THE ROCK|DEWAYNE JOHNSON, TOM JOYNER etc. These are all PERSONS THAT ARE BRANDS. When they speak or purchase OTHERS FOLLOW AND INVEST IN. Integrity, Quality and Consistency of delivery is the common denominator with the fore mentioned. Simply put, They Deliver VALUE to the people they work with and the people who recieve them.
Thomas Lang is a brand, Russ Miller is a brand, Bob Gatzen is a brand, Dunnett is a brand, Craviotto is a brand, Steve Smith is a brand, Steve Gadd is a brand, VINNIE is a brand, Dennis is a brand, Sheila E is a brand, John "JR" Robinson is a brand.

[QCdrummer]

Oh, Let me ask you this Sabe,

Why would a company give out endorsements to people who can barely play? And who barely plays out? To me this says that anybody who can hold down a beat can be endorsed by them.

[SabianKnight]

Oh, Let me ask you this Sabe,

Why would a company give out endorsements to people who can barely play? And who barely plays out? To me this says that anybody who can hold down a beat can be endorsed by them.

Again it's a brand building thing. Nobody wants to be with anybody that nobody wants/likes. It is like when you don't have a girlfriend... you can't find a girlfriend but when you have one girls seem to come out of the woodwork after you. Doing anything to win you over... even if only to say that they 'got you'/won you from someone else. For this reason boutique/small custom company's ACCEPT the eaeger, the hungry, the less than best and sometimes the status seekers & cheap-gear whores.

This is why you have to be honest about examining and proving your abilities, checking your motives and build supportive life-giving/wisdom -giving relationships. It is all to easy to sell your 'birth right for a bowl of broth' or end up at the 'hog trough eating slop.' When you show value and diligence your gift will bring you before great men and kings (major label manufacturers). There are folk here on LGM endorsed by Vic Firth, Sabian, Yamaha, Istanbul Alchemy, Zilldjian, DW, Tama, Rizen (on the come up!!!), ddrum (a major in electronic drums now making a name in acoustic drums!!!) so it is not impossible. What you have to do is make the correct preparations and self-examinations as well as seeking wise mentors/counsel having your oil for your lamp; your suit for the wedding so you don't get thrown out into the darkness; feet shod in preparation having studied and shown yourself approved able to rightly divide the truth of your craft unashamed (in case Calvin or Aaron want to recommend you for a gig!).

[BEATBOXERZ]

It's really not that hard to understand. The bottom line is this, do what's good for you and your career. If you believe in the product and you have the skill-set and desire to get out in the world and showcase yourself then maybe , just maybe the majors will get at you.

It's like the independent  record label game here in California. Say if you sell 100,000 copies on an independent label, the major will take notice of your label's accomplishment and come looking for you.... Now, you have huge leverage at the bargaining table. You can pretty much set you own price.

Now, you ask the question why would a company gave out endoresments to people who can't play? Well, you never know the reason why that person who you think has no skills as a drummer gets an endoresment and you don't. That person may be of value as a good marketer, or sellperson. You really don't understand the deal that person may have in his or her contract. You don't have to be the greatest drummer in the world to be a rep for a company...

[QCdrummer]

Thanks for all the comments, as I'm learning more and more about this endorsement thing.

I (I'm sure I'm not the only one) always associated endorsements with once you are playing at a certain level, then you are rewarded with endorsement oppurtunities, wether they be from a small or big company. Like when you're a kid, you do good things and the teacher will let you pick out a sticker. And you feel special because nobody else is rockin a scratch and sniff sticker except you. lol.
But now that its been said that it doesn't necessarily have to mean that, I understand more. Its more to it than just how good you are. I was in talks with a companys drum that I just did not like the sound of. But I was going to do it just to say I was endorsed.
Now I know a little more, so I can sit back and be patient.

[SabianKnight]

Thanks for all the comments, as I'm learning more and more about this endorsement thing.

I (I'm sure I'm not the only one) always associated endorsements with once you are playing at a certain level, then you are rewarded with endorsement oppurtunities, wether they be from a small or big company. Like when you're a kid, you do good things and the teacher will let you pick out a sticker. And you feel special because nobody else is rockin a scratch and sniff sticker except you. lol.
But now that its been said that it doesn't necessarily have to mean that, I understand more. Its more to it than just how good you are. I was in talks with a companys drum that I just did not like the sound of. But I was going to do it just to say I was endorsed.
Now I know a little more, so I can sit back and be patient.

Scratch an Sniff stickers... boy you have brought back memories LOOOOOOOONNNG past

[j_kay]

Scratch an Sniff stickers... boy you have brought back memories LOOOOOOOONNNG past

TTLY.  *lol*

[bigblackdrummer]

Oh, Let me ask you this Sabe,

Why would a company give out endorsements to people who can barely play? And who barely plays out? To me this says that anybody who can hold down a beat can be endorsed by them.

If a drummer sucks but his band has a huge following and lots of gigs then its in a company's best interest to put their name on him and endorse him... Really if the band has a huge following who cares if (in a more advanced players mind) the drummer sucks, there's 1000's more who are listening and seeing the drums used.

A smaller company will lower their standards in whom they endorse so their product can be seen and talked about in more places.. These companies really rely on the word of mouth because they don't have the funds to be in Modern Drummerie. Los Cabos drumsticks back when I was runnin artist relations.

One thing you need to understand, a "B" endorsement is not 20% its more 50+%, "A" is usually free (guys like Vinny, Gerald, Teddy), "C"  49% and below. MOST public named drummers have "B" endorsements. I think mines like 55-65% off my drums, 65% off my cymbals (was free when I was with another company who is not distributing in Canada anymore  ) 65% off sticks.

Trust me it may not be an "A: endorsement but I am extremely grateful for what I have!!! Anywhere in the world I go I will always have a Mapex kit. When Im in the studio and need something its sent to me with in the next day if there's no stores with it in the city Im in. For an artist a good endorsement is way more then just seeing your picture on a website or in a book and getting good prices...

Down side; Your freedom to play whatever company you want is lost. Sometimes you can get involved with a bad company (I have twice and it was not fun getting out!) Smaller companies can be funny sometimes so watch out !!!!!

Endorsement companies are like record companies! They want to see that You have lots of gigs and/or are really busy, You and or your band has a following, then skill.