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Author Topic: Keyboardists playing bass on keys  (Read 8583 times)

Offline cas10a

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 11:54:43 AM »
A keyboardist needs to learn to chord with the left hand so as not to step on the bass line.


I agree...

but what I was saying, is I think in a lot of cases, as in myself personally, is that I have a tendency to play the bass with my left hand because I have to do it...there is no bass player.  I know alternate left hand chord voicing, but if I suddenly had to play with a bass player, I would unknowingly tend to step on their bass note, just because I'm used to playing it...It would take some time to adjust.

Offline Torch7

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 12:05:07 PM »
I agree...

but what I was saying, is I think in a lot of cases, as in myself personally, is that I have a tendency to play the bass with my left hand because I have to do it...there is no bass player.  I know alternate left hand chord voicing, but if I suddenly had to play with a bass player, I would unknowingly tend to step on their bass note, just because I'm used to playing it...It would take some time to adjust.

I feel ya cas10a, I am fortunate enough to have known the keyboard players I speak of for years, and I know its not their intention to step all over me, they just play how they were taught to play, and know to play.  Starting out, I got very frustrated with them, I wanted to quit a few times, my attitude, was "what am I hear for, if you are gonna play my role"  I wanted to quit, I went to my spiritual father, and Pastor, thrice and said, can I be released from my position on the worship team, he talked me down from the building, and the situation seemingly never got better.  Then suddenly the one keyboard player couldn't play anymore, and we got one of the lead vocalist to play in his place... She was better at not running the lines, but still has a heavy influence, because she forces rhythm changes like you mentioned... and to boot, the drummer can't play upbeat songs without losing time.  It was a mess, I wanted to quit again, there was train wreck after train wreck on Sunday Mornings.  Then the Lord spoke to me, "Play for me", don't allow anyone or anything rob you of what you love to do.

So now I have to realize where we are at as musicians at our church, we will gradually improve, but right now, I just need to play my roll, if it's mimicking the key bass, then that's what I do, if its playing root notes, then that's what I do.  I'm not saying it's not difficult, because my natural tendency is to do my thing.  But in the attitude of unity, I play what I can when I can.

I don't know why all this came out... I suppose someone needs to read this.

Offline momuzik

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2008, 01:26:40 PM »
...So now I have to realize where we are at as musicians at our church, we will gradually improve, ....

Have you tried talking to the keyboardist and try to tell them what you need. If they're not arrogant, they should be open to suggestions that with help overall.

I know in most cased the keyboardist/ organist usually takes the leadership in the band or music ministry, but if it's something they don't know, they need to be taught.
If there'e something that you know that they need to be doing, it might be a good idea to tell them so the band can continue to improve.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2008, 01:32:59 PM »
But in the attitude of unity, I play what I can when I can.
i feel you on that, but at the same time u gotta ask at what point does this unity stifle your growth in your craft. if every time u was up preaching and every time u read a scripture, the pastor or another preacher would grab the mic from u and start preaching their own little mini-sermon (probably not having nothing to do with what u was gonna say) out of peace and unity u might let it go, but at some point u gotta say "chill let me handle it" so u can become a better , and more importantly, a more efficient preacher. Same goes for the bass.

When I have to run bass and keys on a keyboard, I feel like one of my arms is cut off because I can't do nearly as much with chords and melodies.
the quote of the century... all i gotta say is: bumper stickers and t-shirts. though i hope nobody is pullin your leg to admit that. I always say if the keys player let me handle the bass, there is so much more that they can do on the keys thats now available. but i still feel that some players, i said some, use the bass on keys as a crutch.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline Torch7

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2008, 02:23:58 PM »
Have you tried talking to the keyboardist and try to tell them what you need. If they're not arrogant, they should be open to suggestions that with help overall.  I know in most cased the keyboardist/ organist usually takes the leadership in the band or music ministry, but if it's something they don't know, they need to be taught.  If there'e something that you know that they need to be doing, it might be a good idea to tell them so the band can continue to improve.

I have brought it up on a few occassions, during rehearsals/meetings.  It seems to be received, and then never implemented.  I don't think its arrogance, just a lack of ability to implement what I am asking.  So I just roll with it.  At times its frustrating, when I have those scratch your head moments, like what just happened.  I remind myself that it's not deliberate, and do my best.



i feel you on that, but at the same time u gotta ask at what point does this unity stifle your growth in your craft. if every time u was up preaching and every time u read a scripture, the pastor or another preacher would grab the mic from u and start preaching their own little mini-sermon (probably not having nothing to do with what u was gonna say) out of peace and unity u might let it go, but at some point u gotta say "chill let me handle it" so u can become a better , and more importantly, a more efficient preacher. Same goes for the bass.

I feel what your saying.  I chalk it up to right now, my craft growing is the least of my concern.  I stay submitted to the authority of the band.  If how the flow of the music, is okay with them, It's okay with me.  Like I wrote earlier, I was livid at times, the same thing your saying above, I said, I even used a very similar analogy, with the preaching.  Except I stated, since they run the line, its like me trying to preach at the same time as someone else is, and sounding like one voice, without knowing what's in their mind.

I've given my opinion on how to make the music gel better, how create a pocket with the drummer, and at the end of the day,
1.) My opinion is just that, and opinion
2.) It's up to those in control to implement what I asked, if not, it's on them.
3.) If they are content with the way things are... then I rejoice with them.

Unity is not thinking alike, but having a common goal.  Our goal as musicians is to worship God.  I can't worship properly if I am all bent out of shape, because the other musicians are not playing, how I want them to... or else I miss the purpose.

So guess what I do, do my best within the confines of where we are as a band.  It's in unity that God commands the blessing.  It's all about the heart condition.

God still shows up on sundays to abide in the praises of his people, we still see people being set free, and lives changed.... So in the midst of the last 3 years I have come to the conclusion.

Its all about what Jesus wants to do in the service, he desires to bless the people of God, and he can do it in the midst of musicians who are not as talented, as others, he can do it, when things are off in our minds...  where there is unity... GOD COMMANDS a Blessing.

Offline floaded27

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 04:36:07 PM »
you cant really worship properly either if you arent allowed to play freely as God has called you to do either. i like to use examples so i'll give another one. yeah if i was to pray, i cant pray properly if i get bent out of shape because others dont pray like me or how i want them to, but i cant pray properly either if someone dictates to me how im supposed to pray or gives me a sheet of what they want me to say as my prayer. then you might as well pray and let me sit down. when the people get up to shout u dont see nobody tellin them how they should be shoutin, etc. so why do i have to be the only one with a "puppet praise"?

i just had  this talk with the pastor the other day. the Lord revealed something to me. the spirit dont always move because you doin anything right, the spirit moves because it needs to and someone needs it. thats never an excuse not to get what u doin on point. thats what i feel about the P&W team. They feel we was on point and we dont need to practice because the spirit moved. NO! Y'all was a certified mess (i mean with signed paperwork) but the Spirit moved ANYWAY, because someone in that church needed it. So He can move with nobody doing nothin, but that doesnt mean that now on y'all can come in and just sit and twiddle your thumbs because the Spirit moved before without y'all doing anything. When you get on point and on one accord, it helps the Spirit move more easily and more freely.

well we are in different situations. because my people are content with disorganization and last minute slapping stuff together. and i cannot rejoice with that at all.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline Torch7

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 01:28:16 AM »
Prayer & Playing the Bass, are like comparing apples to oranges.  But I will bite.  Ever heard of praying the Scriptures.  I can pray the scripture, or pray in my own words, I can pray with understanding or pray in tongues what lends power to my prayer is my life and my attitude towards prayer.  The point I am trying to make is that in everything I do, I do it as unto the LORD.  So If I am praying a scripted prayer as unto the Lord, if my heart is in the right place, I believe God is pleased. 

Your second point speaks directly to my point, The SPIRIT of God can do what HE wants as HE needs to do it, its not about how good or bad I play.  I understand God can utilize music & minstrels to cause things to happen in the atmosphere, but the motivation needs to be about God, and not how good we sound. 

I am not saying that we shouldn't strive for playing skillfully, and to the best of our capability, we just have to understand that if the situation is less than desireable, and not changing. We need to change, our mindset.  Harping on it, is only going to make things worse.

Lastly, worship begins before I pick up an instrument, worship is about the heart, not about the notes.  If I can't worship properly because the situation around me is not optimal, was it true worship in the first place?  :-\

The bottom line, is...  I have spoken to those who are in charge of the music, I have offered suggestions.  Now I pray that God, be glorified in the midst of our situation, even if my suggestions are ignored.

Offline docjohn

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 05:51:54 AM »
I would rather have a bass player,but if there's not one,try to hold the bottom ,chords,etc.At a service few weeks ago,we had our drummer and me onYamaha clavinola-our team leader had nasal surgery.After service our MOM tol me it's not right to have one guy playing as much/holding down ALL the parts.But LORD blessed,HE used what I had(and gave me a LOTTTT MORE) So prz LORD and do your best for HIS GLORY!!

Offline momuzik

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 05:57:48 AM »
...After service our MOM tol me it's not right to have one guy playing as much/holding down ALL the parts...

This is what I always do. As a matter of fact, when I first learn a song on keyboard, the first thing I do is get my bass line (root notes). That's how I get all my right hand chords.

Offline cas10a

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 10:21:45 AM »
Prayer & Playing the Bass, are like comparing apples to oranges.  But I will bite.  Ever heard of praying the Scriptures.  I can pray the scripture, or pray in my own words, I can pray with understanding or pray in tongues what lends power to my prayer is my life and my attitude towards prayer.  The point I am trying to make is that in everything I do, I do it as unto the LORD.  So If I am praying a scripted prayer as unto the Lord, if my heart is in the right place, I believe God is pleased. 

Your second point speaks directly to my point, The SPIRIT of God can do what HE wants as HE needs to do it, its not about how good or bad I play.  I understand God can utilize music & minstrels to cause things to happen in the atmosphere, but the motivation needs to be about God, and not how good we sound. 

I am not saying that we shouldn't strive for playing skillfully, and to the best of our capability, we just have to understand that if the situation is less than desireable, and not changing. We need to change, our mindset.  Harping on it, is only going to make things worse.

Lastly, worship begins before I pick up an instrument, worship is about the heart, not about the notes.  If I can't worship properly because the situation around me is not optimal, was it true worship in the first place?  :-\

The bottom line, is...  I have spoken to those who are in charge of the music, I have offered suggestions.  Now I pray that God, be glorified in the midst of our situation, even if my suggestions are ignored.

Excellent words...COSIGN!

Offline themidiroom

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2008, 02:02:03 PM »
ithe quote of the century... all i gotta say is: bumper stickers and t-shirts. though i hope nobody is pullin your leg to admit that. I always say if the keys player let me handle the bass, there is so much more that they can do on the keys thats now available. but i still feel that some players, i said some, use the bass on keys as a crutch.
;D ;D ;D
One thing to keep in mind is that the music is bigger than we are as musicians especially when we're talking about gospel music.  I'm supposed to be humble and play my part.  Now I will say I've been playing and the bassist didn't know the song or something like that and I might play the line to help them get it.  If you're playing with a skilled bassist them let him or her do their thing. 
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Offline floaded27

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2008, 02:17:54 PM »
torch i hope u dont think im trying to argue with you. im not.

as i stated before our situations are different. (maybe my examples werent the best). from my understanding it seems that people just play how they know how to and it seems a bit rough where people are stepping on others' toes. In my situation its that people just dont care and feel like just giving whatever to God. Yes its about the heart, and just giving "whatever" to God is not true worship. And when you're actions are the equivalent of telling me "dont worry about it. just do whatever", that doesnt sit well with me because i want to give my best. and in anything you do for God, if you keep doing "whatever" He may just take it away from you and give it to someone else. it may have not happened yet for some, but its still possible. again, as i said, this is probably not your situation, but it is mine.

i feel that God has put me in this position to be a catalyst for change meaning i cant just sit there and let certain things continue without speaking up. and i do pray he shows me how to be an agent of change effectively. and i pray the same for you.
For my God... let "Golden Axe" prevail.

Offline Torch7

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2008, 03:54:45 PM »
I never took it as arguing, br'er.

We are discussing.  If I thought you wanted to just argue, I would have bowed out of the conversations, because strife and contention is not my thing.

I think I am not expressing my position properly either.  I am not saying, just give God anything.  But what I am saying, is in the confines of my situation, I do what I can, as unto the Lord.  My stance is I can't control how others worship, or how, others practice, or play etc.  But what I can control is my part.  There are many occasions where the lead musician will begin to play a bass line on the keys, that isn't as true to the groove on the CD as I think it can be... so I can do one of two things... play the groove they prescribe, or turn my bass way up, and play what I want to.  I've already asked them to not play the basslines, which ain't happening.  So as to not make a less than optimal situation even worse, and spoiling it for all the listeners, I play what the Lead has started to play. 

I feel you on the change thing... I have spoken on numerous occassions about my concerns, for the past 2 years, so if it hasn't changed yet, I can be miserable for the next 2 years, or I can play where the band is.

Believe it or not, God honors your submission, more than your desire to play excellently.  I can't speak for you, but for me, the Lord showed me my heart in the midst of the 2 years of struggle.  I have to admit, I did not like what I saw, in me.  I had to learn to release some things and let things go.   God is more concerned with my character than my comfort, and this is definately a character building experience.   ;)

Offline dhagler

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2008, 05:38:43 PM »
In my limited playing experience, I have always been told (usually by a keyboardist  ::)) that the keyboardist is the lead musician.  Where he or she leads me, I will follow.  I've stated before that my keyboardist likes to run bass lines, so as Torch said I can either duplicate what she plays or play something different that doesn't clash.  In an ideal situation we would have worked all that out in musicians' rehearsal but most of us (see floaded's thread on despair) don't have playing situations that are anything close to ideal.

Now, that doesn't mean that I won't suggest an alternate bassline instead of hers if I think mine is better.  But rehearsal is the proper forum for that, not Sunday morning.

In short, pick your battles.  And always remember that as musicians, we are merely backing the Word. And the Word is the most important thing.

My two cents, humbly submitted.

Offline cas10a

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2008, 07:17:55 PM »
I'm gone have to visit the Bass room more often, you all are on point up in here...! :) 8)

Offline momuzik

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2008, 09:44:15 PM »
... I have spoken on numerous occassions about my concerns, for the past 2 years, so if it hasn't changed yet, ...

... I've stated before that my keyboardist likes to run bass lines, ...

Sounds like these keyboardists don't know how to play without playing the bass lines (that's not uncommon). Why don't you try telling them to play their left hand up an octave. That way the keyboardist can keep playing the bass line but it will be an octave higher and won't be heard as a bass line? Then you might can have your space.

Offline dhagler

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2008, 10:09:36 PM »
Sounds like these keyboardists don't know how to play without playing the bass lines (that's not uncommon). Why don't you try telling them to play their left hand up an octave. That way the keyboardist can keep playing the bass line but it will be an octave higher and won't be heard as a bass line? Then you might can have your space.
In defense of my keyboardist, she has started letting me handle the bass line or, as you suggested, played up an octave.  But as I posted before, it's not so much an issue to me as it might be to some.

Offline Torch7

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2008, 02:26:27 AM »
Sounds like these keyboardists don't know how to play without playing the bass lines (that's not uncommon). Why don't you try telling them to play their left hand up an octave. That way the keyboardist can keep playing the bass line but it will be an octave higher and won't be heard as a bass line? Then you might can have your space.

I believe that is exactly the case momuzik...

I have made that suggestion, and it may work for a bit, but gradually the hand begins to slide back down... :) 
I have also suggested not using the split ( I hope I am using the right term) on the keys, so that the entire board is the piano sound or whatever sound is being used, doesn't muddy up the bottom end.

Offline themidiroom

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2008, 10:15:48 AM »
In defense of my keyboardist, she has started letting me handle the bass line or, as you suggested, played up an octave.  But as I posted before, it's not so much an issue to me as it might be to some.
I think I'd have an issue with it especially if the keyboardist is experienced.  If you know what you're doing, surely you can keep your hands off the bass notes.  It might be partly a control thing and not so much an issue of habit.  Just something to think about.
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Offline dhagler

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Re: Keyboardists playing bass on keys
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2008, 12:15:58 PM »
I think I'd have an issue with it especially if the keyboardist is experienced.  If you know what you're doing, surely you can keep your hands off the bass notes.  It might be partly a control thing and not so much an issue of habit.  Just something to think about.
It is absolutely a control thing.  But, again, not a battle that I feel needs to be fought.  On the other hand, she and I have had issues over my volume.  She prefers to hear herself through the house speakers mounted in the ceiling instead of through the monitor next to her bench.  Her solution:  have me turn my volume down.  I explained to her that since I do not go through the house my volume level has to be such that I can be heard through my cab because my cab is all I have.  So I politely refused to turn my volume down past a certain point.
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