Gospel is Gospel NOT JAZZ ETC

[seemunny]

Lately when I've heard keyboarders they all have this jazzy neo soul type feel..!! The thing is that when some of them play in that style so much that when they play it doesn't even sound like a church service but some JAZZ concert... Now I believe that your music shouldn't be boring, but I MEAN COME ON WE PLAY GOSPEL MUSIC WHEN THE GOSPEL IS GOING FORTH AND IF WERE GOSPEL MUSICIANS...It's interesting to me that you have people do cross genres Gospel music such as Gospel Jazz, Gospel Hip-Hop, Gospel RnB, Gospel Blues....YOU TOTALLY DON'T SEE THIS IN OTHER GENRES...YOU DON'T HIP-Hop GOSPEL, RnB GOSpel, Blues GOSPEL......I KNOW SOMEONE'S IS GONNA SAY "GOSPEL MUSIC COMES FROM ALL TYPES OF GENRES"......I BEG TO DIFFER.......GOSPEL MUSIC IS IT's own SPECIAL GENRE that BRINGS A TENSION, ENLIGHTMENT, UPLIFTMENT, and sometimes CORRECTION....WHAT IS UP WITH GOSPEL MUSICIANS THESE DAYS WE'RE in the GOSPEL MUSIC FIELD...WE SHOULD PLAY GOSPEL

Keep in mind, before American Slavery, God still existed all over the world. In those times let's say in Europe, were they playing "gospel" music? Was the spirit "moving" and makin folk shout when God was working with their music?

There seems to be no "one correct" GOD music. Some will tell you that what John Coltrane was doing, was honestly digging for & reaching for & emoting & expressing spiritual Truth through HIS music, to the point where there is even ("The Saint John Coltrane African Orthodox Church") that uses his music in the services. Musical Truth?...who knows if it is, but who's to say it's not?

Music is not "music", because it doesn't play or create itself. Music is the "expression of the spirit of the people who create it". These people are as different & unique from one another as their handwriting is from one another's. Therefore, God's creation will SURELY continue to "create" and evolve. And it will be next to impossible to stop the evolution.

But when it's all said and done, God will not be pushed off the throne by the wrong note. lol



Maybe YOU would like for the "church" to stop at:

*Thomas Dorsey: (yeah, that's jusssssst right. Thomas hit it right on the head!) But others might want it to stop at...
*Walter Hawkins: because (that was jusssssst about right. Walter PERSONALLY talked with God). But then yet still others would say: "Let's just keep it at"...
*Kirk Franklin: because, (Kirk actually spoke to the BURNING BUSH! - ENOUGH! NO FURTHER!")....Suddenly, somebody whispered:

("Jazzy Neo' touched my Soul! In the name of Jesus!'") so, there ya go...

Therefore, i'm not sure if we're talking about: 1) "Spiritual Truth" in music, or 2) Our "Favorite Flavor" of GOD music (i.e. Thomas Dorsey, Walter Hawkins, Kirk Franklin, etc...).

Lastly, I'll just repeat what i said in another thread:

We sometimes suffer from "historic amnesia".

Thomas Dorsey/Kirk Franklin/Jazzy Neo-Soul Cats......YOU be the judge!


It never ends.

[diverse379]

The problem in my opinion is not the fact that neo soul or jazz is not appropriate in a church service

it is the limitation of a player who only knows neo soul or R&B or jazz and doesent know

the language of traditional gospel
or the blues language

because you are robbing the people and yourself

of some very powerful music

hymns are based in part of european harmonies that become obliterated when mixed with neo soul harmonies which negate the principles of voice leading that forged the SATB style that hymns are written in

they also are blends of african harmonies that are the essense of gospel music
when you fail to understand how this delicate blend of african and european harmony come together then you fail to understand a culture a tradition and a heritage of the african american church and the african american experience

that being said having the ability to play the variety of genres that exist
allow you to communicate and minister to more and more congregants
young people need to hear some neo soul
old folks need to hear some classical harmonies
middle age folks need to hear some bluesy gospel
young adults need to hear a little contemporary jazzy chords and rhythms
If you play neo soul style or jazz that is great and if you can learn to play gospel music in that style that is great too

but please once you know that stretch out and learn some hymns as written
you may be surprised to find that some of those guys from long ago had some phat moves of their own

case in point

check this out

FCF/CFA
FC#F/C#FA
BbF#/DFA
BbG/DG
CA/CG
CA/CF
CG/BbF
CG/BbE
CF/ACEG  (this last chord is my own they ended with regular F major chord not a major 9 chord )

this was written over 200 years ago yet the first three chords is a move we do now and we call it a contemporary move

ha contemporary my butt it is an old move catholic church musicians did on the organ
as a postlitude



so I agree that music must move forward but not at the expense of ignoring what came before because a lot of what came before is what got us to where we are now

[themidiroom]

The problem in my opinion is the limitation of a player who only knows neo soul or R&B or jazz and doesent know the language of traditional gospel
or the blues language because you are robbing the people and yourself of some very powerful music.

so I agree that music must move forward but not at the expense of ignoring what came before because a lot of what came before is what got us to where we are now

Great points.  Musicians should strive to be well rounded, play skillfully and appropriately as well.

[T-Block]

The problem in my opinion is not the fact that neo soul or jazz is not appropriate in a church service

it is the limitation of a player who only knows neo soul or R&B or jazz and doesent know

the language of traditional gospel
or the blues language

because you are robbing the people and yourself

of some very powerful music

I like that.  Being one-dimensional is very damaging to any musician, especially a church musician.

[themidiroom]

I like that.  Being one-dimensional is very damaging to any musician, especially a church musician.

We're 2 for 2 being in agreement.  What's going on here T?   

[diverse379]

We're 2 for 2 being in agreement.  What's going on here T?   

let me find out my old nemesis has a new adversary

maybe I should team up with the midi room and together we would have no problem defeating the mighty T-Block

[T-Block]

We're 2 for 2 being in agreement.  What's going on here T?   

We probably agree on a whole lot of things, just not the T-button issue. 

[themidiroom]

We probably agree on a whole lot of things, just not the T-button issue. 

Actually bruh, we do agree on the transposing issue.  The difference is I don't get on my soapbox about it.  It is what it is.  I don't transpose and that's my choice but I think too much energy is being used preaching to the choir about it.

[4hisglory]

Actually bruh, we do agree on the transposing issue.  The difference is I don't get on my soapbox about it.  It is what it is.  I don't transpose and that's my choice but I think too much energy is being used preaching to the choir about it.

But talk about producing and he's all over you.

[T-Block]

Actually bruh, we do agree on the transposing issue.  The difference is I don't get on my soapbox about it.  It is what it is.  I don't transpose and that's my choice but I think too much energy is being used preaching to the choir about it.

Agreed.

But talk about producing and he's all over you.

Yup, LOL. 

[themidiroom]

But talk about producing and he's all over you.

Hey now!   

[diverse379]

Agreed.

Yup, LOL. 

sorry midiroom I will back off

you are on your own

[spider5]

  I see everyone's point and Gospel Music was being played way before the neo-soul and jazz. what do you think they were playing in the Bible Days?  However, today's type of gospel music that is being played has changed, and change is good at times, but when you hear a song and you don't know whether the song is for the Church or for the Club, then I think that the music has gone too far. It is true that the words are what a person should listen too, but the first thing that you are going to hear is the music, especially musicians. We have to remember that the music that we play should be for GOD and not to please man. I have heard many great musuicans, but the music that they play does not have that annointing as it should have, and that is what we should be striving for. I hear a lot of good music when I am listeing to songs, but I will not attempt to play it in church, because it is not what people need to hear. We also must realize that a lot of artists and musicians are doing what society wants, and not what God wants. God is who we need to be playing for. It is good to be a well-rounded musician, but we must do what pleases GOD.   

[under13]

   We have to remember that the music that we play should be for GOD and not to please man.

So its wrong for us to be pleased by gospel music?

[themidiroom]

So its wrong for us to be pleased by gospel music?

Cut it out man.

[spider5]

Under13, I guess you are being sarcastic, but since asked, what I am saying is that the music that we play should be ministered through GOD, and when that happens we will see great things happen to man, that is what I am saying.

[musallio]

Great points.  Musicians should strive to be well rounded, play skillfully and appropriately as well.

I like that.  Being one-dimensional is very damaging to any musician, especially a church musician.

Agreemento!!

Keep in mind, before American Slavery, God still existed all over the world. In those times let's say in Europe, were they playing "gospel" music? Was the spirit "moving" and makin folk shout when God was working with their music?

There seems to be no "one correct" GOD music. Some will tell you that what John Coltrane was doing, was honestly digging for & reaching for & emoting & expressing spiritual Truth through HIS music, to the point where there is even ("The Saint John Coltrane African Orthodox Church") that uses his music in the services. Musical Truth?...who knows if it is, but who's to say it's not?

Music is not "music", because it doesn't play or create itself. Music is the "expression of the spirit of the people who create it". These people are as different & unique from one another as their handwriting is from one another's. Therefore, God's creation will SURELY continue to "create" and evolve. And it will be next to impossible to stop the evolution.

But when it's all said and done, God will not be pushed off the throne by the wrong note. lol



Maybe YOU would like for the "church" to stop at:

*Thomas Dorsey: (yeah, that's jusssssst right. Thomas hit it right on the head!) But others might want it to stop at...
*Walter Hawkins: because (that was jusssssst about right. Walter PERSONALLY talked with God). But then yet still others would say: "Let's just keep it at"...
*Kirk Franklin: because, (Kirk actually spoke to the BURNING BUSH! - ENOUGH! NO FURTHER!")....Suddenly, somebody whispered:

("Jazzy Neo' touched my Soul! In the name of Jesus!'") so, there ya go...

Therefore, i'm not sure if we're talking about: 1) "Spiritual Truth" in music, or 2) Our "Favorite Flavor" of GOD music (i.e. Thomas Dorsey, Walter Hawkins, Kirk Franklin, etc...).

Lastly, I'll just repeat what i said in another thread:

We sometimes suffer from "historic amnesia".

Thomas Dorsey/Kirk Franklin/Jazzy Neo-Soul Cats......YOU be the judge!


It never ends.

Well said C$$..you should be a philosopher

Actually bruh, we do agree on the transposing issue.  The difference is I don't get on my soapbox about it.  It is what it is.  I don't transpose and that's my choice but I think too much energy is being used preaching to the choir about it.

Oh, is it me or is it for real..oh no, duck, there they go again

  I see everyone's point and Gospel Music was being played way before the neo-soul and jazz. what do you think they were playing in the Bible Days?  However, today's type of gospel music that is being played has changed, and change is good at times, but when you hear a song and you don't know whether the song is for the Church or for the Club, then I think that the music has gone too far. It is true that the words are what a person should listen too, but the first thing that you are going to hear is the music, especially musicians. We have to remember that the music that we play should be for GOD and not to please man. I have heard many great musuicans, but the music that they play does not have that annointing as it should have, and that is what we should be striving for. I hear a lot of good music when I am listeing to songs, but I will not attempt to play it in church, because it is not what people need to hear. We also must realize that a lot of artists and musicians are doing what society wants, and not what God wants. God is who we need to be playing for. It is good to be a well-rounded musician, but we must do what pleases GOD.  

Spider,can you define, in your own words what gospel music is or how it should sound..

I am listening to Mary Don't You Weep & Precious memories right now..Are these songs gospel or are they blues or are they both?
Are they praising God or enocuraging someone?  [I hope you know these songs]

The thing with gospel music, as Diverse has correctly pointed out, is that one has to be all rounded & cater for every1..
That could mean that either the choir sings contemporary stuff while the normal service proceedings are dominated by Neo-soul, Jazz, blues, reggae, bebop, funk or whichever genres of music & vice versa.. Or the musicians would be expected to switch styles depending on songs.

I find that to be most effective & keeps every1 engaged & excited.

2 weeks ago I was chatting with some people in the choir, & they told me straight up that they don't really like the "old" style (bebop funk) style that the old generation guys like..
Although that style feels very spiritually uplifting, 1 sometimes switches styles depending on the song so that every1 feels accomodated..It's also good for one's musicianship in general

[seemunny]

hymns......are blends of african harmonies that are the essense of gospel music
when you fail to understand how this delicate blend of african and european harmony come together then you fail to understand a culture a tradition and a heritage of the african american church and the african american experience.


....once you know that stretch out and learn some hymns as written
you may be surprised to find that some of those guys from long ago had some phat moves of their own

case in point:

check this out

FCF/CFA
FC#F/C#FA
BbF#/DFA
BbG/DG
CA/CG
CA/CF
CG/BbF
CG/BbE
CF/ACEG  (this last chord is my own they ended with regular F major chord not a major 9 chord )

This was written over 200 years ago yet the first three chords is a move we do now and we call it a contemporary move, ha!

Contemporary my butt! It is an old move catholic church musicians did on the organ as a postlitude.

So, I agree that music must move forward, but not at the expense of ignoring what came before, because a lot of what came before is what got us to where we are now.

I agree Diverse that musicians shouldn't leave behind the traditional styles of music, and should be well versed in them to be the more "complete musician".

But i was merely addressing the original comment, which was basically questioning if there is room for "musical evolution", and through historic observation, we see that the human being's freedom & yearning to create, will always demand room to evolve.

So, at the end of the day, the more you know (traditional & contemporary), the better off and the more enriched you'll be.

(note): Great Mus, in order for me to be a philosopher, i'm gonna need the proper eyewear for the gig! 

[spider5]

Musallio,

   Of course I know the songs that you are talking about, and yes I believe that they are Gospel songs. I can also tell that you are part of the new generation and think that change is good. Change is good at times, and getting people excited in church is also good, but you have to evaluate the way you are getting people excited. Look at the youtube videos and look at the people playing and the people in the congregation and in the choir, especially the younger generation, sometimes you see them doing dances that you see people on BET doind (106 & Park, rap city), because of the beats, and yes as musicians we like to see people get excited behind the music, but it is not the true annointing, and that is what I am saying. Being a well-rounded musician is great and a must for a musician, but it does not mean that you have to incorporate music from an R-Kelly song, in a church song, to get people's attention. I am a firm believer that if you do GOD's will, then he will do the rest, that is needed to get the people's attention. If you really look at the church these days it is fallen apart, attendance is not the same, because of the things that are going on in church these days that we as a people know aren't right. We are accepting anything in church, and it is taking away what he need from church. Gospel music to me is a whole different type of music in it itself, and Gospel music can be changed in a way that it keeps its annoniting, and that is what counts.         

[TheBigO30]

I think gospel music is diffrent for the rest, because of the annoniting, an Elder to me one time the hip-hop gospel and rap sound good and he like,  but is it doing the will of God. Like Preaching you can be the hottest preacher out there but if the annoiting but if the annoniting isn't there what do you have. the key is the annoiting,  yes God give you a song to create and want you to do it one way but you want to add a Nas hook or a Wu-tang beat to it. its sound hot, make alot of money of that song, but the main key is will it save soul, it heal and deliver. I can yes no it won't and you can say Yes it will. the final say is God's. I thing there is a style of Gospel way back in the days of Mose ,and King David the Chief Musician but that my take. Now everyone be real, now when a gospel Hip-hop song or a rap song comes on the radio what the frist thing you listen for (the beat or the lyrics) be real now.