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Author Topic: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together  (Read 14745 times)

Offline Wolfram

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Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« on: June 26, 2008, 02:28:08 PM »
Okay, so you got the basics down, now what?  Here we try to learn how to apply it all in a faster paced, more practical way.  If you know how to read music and understand your basic chord theory you can pretty much hang here.  If you are struggling a bit, do sweat it, take a look at Jazz 101 and see if you can fill in the holes with something there and then hurry on back here so we can get you jamming. ;D

Offline diverse379

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2008, 11:42:30 AM »
Okay, so you got the basics down, now what?  Here we try to learn how to apply it all in a faster paced, more practical way.  If you know how to read music and understand your basic chord theory you can pretty much hang here.  If you are struggling a bit, do sweat it, take a look at Jazz 101 and see if you can fill in the holes with something there and then hurry on back here so we can get you jamming. ;D

after you post your A/B voicings I would like to chime in with some left hand clusters and other combinations that can be used in conjunction with these voicings

I will wait my turn

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Offline Wolfram

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 10:11:59 AM »
The first lesson we will look at here is based off of the II - V7 - I chord progression.  This is an extremely popular progression in jazz and modern music that uses the AABA form.  There are simple ways of thinking about setting yourself up for a basic comping pattern for these sort of tunes.  We can place these patterns into A patterns and B patterns

In the "A" Pattern, your inital left hand voicing will start on the third. (You use this pattern for chords between C and F)
In the "B" Pattern, your initial left hand voicing will start on the seventh. (You use this pattern for chords between F# and B)

examples:

A Pattern: In C:    II-9  =  b3, 5, b7, 9       D(-9)     F, A, C, E          remember that the bass is playing the D  (pedal) 
                         V13  =  b7, 9, 3, 13       G13        F, A, B, E          G is played by bass or by pedal
                         I 6/9 = 3, 5, 6, 9           C 6/9     E, G, A, D          C is played by bass or by pedal

B Pattern:  In Ab:  II-9  =  b3, 5, b7, 9       Ab(-9)   Gb, Bb, Cb, Eb    remember that the bass is playing the Ab  (pedal) 
                          V13  =  b7, 9, 3, 13       Db         F, Bb, Cb, Eb     Db is played by bass or by pedal
                          I 6/9 = 3, 5, 6, 9           Gb 6/9    Eb, Ab, Bb, Db   Gb is played by bass or by pedal


Here is a worksheet for you to practice these patterns with.  You will have to fill them in first :)...  Let me know how things go!!!

WQLF

Offline musallio

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 07:11:08 PM »
Wow!!!!

Finally things will be easier for me..
I thought I was just going to take a decade to learn all these jazz voicings, but this is really going to make this a fun & quick road for me to travel..

I have just written out the chords for exercises 54 & 55..Now I just have to practice them as regularly as possible.

So what's lesson #2 sir? :) 8)
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Offline musallio

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 09:07:12 PM »
Those 2 exercises are going to do me wonders, thanks Wolfram 8)
The "correct" (or rather intended) voicing did take some brains to figure since the numbered voicings in the B Patterns were not in the "right"order.

I was going to post the other number system I use (which bases all the 3 voicings for the 2-5-1 on the key that 1 is playing in), but for the sake of not confusing people, I shall not.

However, I am posting the method I used to construct the particular voicings I'll start off with:


IE,

Formulae to apply to to A Pattern keys [C to F]

-From II to the V, you move the 3rd note from Left down by a HS [-H].
-From V to the I, move the lowest note down by a HS & the other 3 notes down by WSs each [-H,-W,-W,-W].

eg, in key of EM:

II9   F#(-9)   A,C#,E,G#
V13  B13      A,C#,D# [-H] ,G#
I6/9  E6/9    G# [-H] ,B,C#,F# [-W,-W,-W for other 3 notes]



Formulae to apply to to B Pattern keys [Gb/F# to Cb/B]

-From II to the V, you move the lowest note  down by a HS [-H].
-From V to the I, move the lowest  2 notes down by  WSs  each & the 3rd from left note down by a HS & the note on top down by a WS [-W,-W,-H,-W].


eg, in key of BbM

II9   C(-9)     Bb,D,Eb,G
V13  F13      A [-H],D,Eb,G
I6/9  Bb6/9    G [-W],C,D,F [-W,-H,-W for other 3 notes]





I hope this allows someone to have a systemmatic approach to viewing this.
I would also love to see which methods others used to identify the patterns.

Thanks.
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Offline musallio

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 02:54:43 AM »
ok, b4 I go too far: May some1 help me with the fingering for these voicings.
Thanks.
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Offline MemphisKeys

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2008, 10:54:37 PM »
How do you get these voicings I don't understand that....any help
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Offline Wolfram

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 03:02:06 PM »
Remember that these are LEFTY chords :P

If you try them in the right, you may pull something...  They sit pretty comfortably in the left.

Offline musallio

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2008, 06:02:50 PM »
How do you get these voicings I don't understand that....any help

You don't understand my explanation above ?/?

Remember that these are LEFTY chords :P

If you try them in the right, you may pull something...  They sit pretty comfortably in the left.

I'm more comfortable playing them with my RH than LH :D It's what I'm used to. It feels like I'll pull something when I practice them with my LH.
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Offline MemphisKeys

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2008, 07:26:47 PM »
Nope I don't understand Mus....
Music is my Best friend

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 04:26:57 PM »
You don't understand my explanation above ?/?

I'm more comfortable playing them with my RH than LH :D It's what I'm used to. It feels like I'll pull something when I practice them with my LH.

In jazz we are trying to free your right from chordal duty.  Keep working the left hand chords.  It takes a bit of time to get them under your fingers but you will see the sense in the patterns once you start playing around with it.

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 04:29:22 PM »
Nope I don't understand Mus....

Can you help me help you please?  I do not understand what you do not understand :)

Can you give me a little more information?

Wolf

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2008, 04:34:04 PM »
ok, b4 I go too far: May some1 help me with the fingering for these voicings.
Thanks.

Pinky on the bottom (remember this is a left handed chord study)
The rest should slide in place.

Offline cas10a

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2008, 05:29:52 PM »
Can you help me help you please?  I do not understand what you do not understand :)

Can you give me a little more information?

Wolf

I think what Memphiskeys is asking and maybe confused about...is how you wrote out the left hand chords voicings...you used "," in between the notes instead of dashes (comma normally indicating single notes played separately in the Piano forum)...

ex.,
LH voicing - Pattern A for II-V7-I
F-A-C-E  (root bass note = D, played by Bass or pedal)
F-A-B-E  (root bass note = G, "")
E-G-A-D  (root bass note = C, "")


Offline musallio

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2008, 06:57:13 PM »
Does Cas's response help MK?

I hope it was that, if not, we can log onto chat & I can try to explain live.
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2008, 01:46:55 PM »
I think what Memphiskeys is asking and maybe confused about...is how you wrote out the left hand chords voicings...you used "," in between the notes instead of dashes (comma normally indicating single notes played separately in the Piano forum)...

ex.,
LH voicing - Pattern A for II-V7-I
F-A-C-E  (root bass note = D, played by Bass or pedal)
F-A-B-E  (root bass note = G, "")
E-G-A-D  (root bass note = C, "")

and, when there's NO bass or 'pedal'  ::)
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Offline musallio

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2008, 06:46:43 PM »
and, when there's NO bass or 'pedal'  ::)

Still sounds nice in a different way...sometimes it takes a bit of getting used to the sound..but normally it sounds "different" in a nice way..it gives one nice versatility & not be "monotonous".
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Offline MemphisKeys

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2008, 10:53:54 PM »
I askin how do you voice your...extented chords like 9th 11th etc...you know
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Offline musallio

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2008, 06:48:51 PM »
I askin how do you voice your...extented chords like 9th 11th etc...you know

Ok..

There are a couple of ways, depending on what sound quality you want as well as the melody.

Another important point I should bring to your attention is that sometimes (in fact, all the time ;)) you should look at the chord based on both your LH & RH, not just one hand. This is especially true in gospel music where you will find yourself playing a note or two in your LH that is/ are not included in your RH- in which case, if you look at both hands collectively, you might be holding a b13th  or 11th, which might not seem to be the case if you assess 1 hand.

An example of the above is this:

In the key of C:

C-E(10th)/A-G-B

If you look at the LH alone, it's just a Cmajor [I chord].
The RH appears to be a Gsus2 chord [Vsus2 chord].

So nothing seems to be big in that chord except maybe the way it sounds or that sus chord in the RH.
But now, if we put both hands together, we establish that you are holding a Cmaj13 chord.
Perhaps the fingering for that voicing might be too uncomfy for others because of width, in which case I'd probably hold C-E(not 10th)/G-A-B , just making sure that it's not muddy.

Alternatively, C-A/E-G-B, or C-G/ A-E-B, or C-G/E-^A-B [^=trill/ play for split sec.].

So you see that you don't really have to try that hard to play the so-called bg chords--if you sound good (which you do!) it's probably because you are already playing these big chords without having realized it because you were looking at each hand in isolation.

I don't know why I adapted this approach to explain this to you--I thought I was going to do like I've always done...anyway, lemme move on.

9ths:
These are the most basic, imo, to form with 1 hand without investing much thought after a few practices. How so?

Say you want to play a specific chord, say in root position. You can revolutionize that chord "on the fly" by moving a half step or whole step (depending on the diatonic positioning of that chord in the key you are in..ie, depending on where the 7th is..remember, it will be a half step for the I, IV chords. That is because we want to form a major 7th. It will be a whole step for the ii, iii, IV & vi chords because they are minors & a dominant).
We know that we need a 3rd & a 7th in order to have extended chords. If we are already holding the 7th with out bottom RH finger (thumb) and the 3rd , then all we have to do is insert the 2 & we get a 9th 8) It's all easy fingering.

An example of the above, in C major:

I: CM9 : C/ C-E-G-B  -invert to---> C/B-D-E-G (the C in RH is not necessary now bcos U have it on your LH)

ii: Dm9 : D/ D-F-A-C  -invert to---> D/C-E-F-A (the D in RH is not necessary now bcos U have it on your LH)

iii: Em9 : E/ E-G-B-D  -invert to---> E/D-F-G-B (the E in RH is not necessary now bcos U have it on your LH)

IV: FM9 : F/ F-A-C-E  -invert to---> F/E-G-A-C (the F in RH is not necessary now bcos U have it on your LH)

V: G9 : G/ G-B-D-F  -invert to---> G/F-A-B-D (the G in RH is not necessary now bcos U have it on your LH)

vi: Am9 : A/ A-C-E-G  -invert to---> A/G-C-D-E (the A in RH is not necessary now bcos U have it on your LH)

vii: Bdim6 : B/B-D-F  -invert to---> B/Ab-B-D-F

I just did everything for completeness' sake.

NOTE: for some 9ths (most) you will have to play them as trills to make it sound sweet.

 Also, don't forget to practice your inversions..those might take some more effort getting used to.

For instance, if you can familiarize yuoreself with inversions, you will know that if you are holding a chord F-A-C-E in your RH, it will sound nice if you add a D note on the LH.

For instance, depending on what keys I'm on, I know that if I play a B or Cb note on my LH, I can add either Eb-Gb-Ab-Bb-Db  (forming a CbM13 chord..easy cool voicing..keys of Gb or Cb & even Db & Eb near ending) or I could play A-C#-D-F# in my RH (forming a Bm9 chord..keys of A, Bmin/Dmaj, G etc ).

We can apply these "smart" voicings, using the same principle, in all the notes.

It is up to you to look at a specific chord quality (say a major9/11/13 or minor 9/11/13 or augmented etc) work with 1 chord 1st, in 1 key..once you have a comfortable voicing, play that chord chromatically up.
Then try it around the circle.

I won't lie, it is demanding work, but it's well worth it man.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope you can digest it.

I urge you to read this again & again, believe me, it will make sense. That includes the stuff I explained in the old post where I was explaining the patterns..

best wishes man.








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Offline Wolfram

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Re: Intermediate Jazz - Putting it together
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 07:57:54 AM »
I think what Memphiskeys is asking and maybe confused about...is how you wrote out the left hand chords voicings...you used "," in between the notes instead of dashes (comma normally indicating single notes played separately in the Piano forum)...

ex.,
LH voicing - Pattern A for II-V7-I
F-A-C-E  (root bass note = D, played by Bass or pedal)
F-A-B-E  (root bass note = G, "")
E-G-A-D  (root bass note = C, "")

Thanks!  I did not know that there was a texting language for this sort of thing :)
I hope this clears it up though.



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