half-diminished chords

[docjohn]

where's T-block or one of the other theory heavies? What is a 1/2 dim chord and how is it used/thanks be blessed

[sjonathan02]

where's T-block or one of the other theory heavies? What is a 1/2 dim chord and how is it used/thanks be blessed

Take the root, minor third, diminished fifth and minor seventh (1, ♭3, ♭5 and ♭7) of any major scale; for example, C half-diminished would be (C E♭ G♭ B♭).

The vast majority of its occurrence is in a II-V-I progression on the II chord, wherein it takes leading naturally to a dominant V chord.

Hope this helps, DJ.

[T-Block]

Sjon has explained it so nicely. The half-diminished chord (m7 b5) is played mostly before some type of dominant chord. Here are some uses using the key of C:

7-3-6

B / A-D-F *B half-dim, Bm7(b5)
E / G#-C-D-G *E7(#5/#9)
A / G-C-E

Notice how the B half-dim leads nicely to the E7


#4-7-3-6

F# / A-C-E *F# half-dim, Fm7(b5)
B / A-D-F *B half-dim, Bm7(b5)
E / G#-C-D-G *E7(#5/#9)
A / G-C-E

Here we got a double use of the half-dim chord. You got the F# half-dim leading to the B half-dim, which then leads to the E7


2-5-1

D / Ab-C-D-F *D half-dim, Dm7(b5)
G / G-C-E
G / F-B-D *G7
C / E-G-C

Another use, this time the D half-dim leads to the G7, even though the dom. chord isn't played right after


2-5-1

D / F#-A-C-E *D9, F# half-dim chord in RH
G / F-Ab-B-D *G7(b9)
C / G-B-E

Technically, this isn't a use of the half-dim chord itself, but there is an F# half-dim chord in the RH part of the chord


#4-5-1 (2-5 alternate of above)

F# / A-C-E *F# half-dim, F#m7(b5)
G / F-G-B-D# *G7(#5)
C / Bb-E-A-C

Like it says in the title, instead of playing the 2-5-1 above, u can play this F# half-dim in place of the 2

[docjohn]

thanks guys;something else to  practice-learn!

[Bullitt]

Sjon has explained it so nicely. The half-diminished chord (m7 b5) is played mostly before some type of dominant chord. Here are some uses using the key of C:

7-3-6

B / A-D-F *B half-dim, Bm7(b5)
E / G#-C-D-G *E7(#5/#9)
A / G-C-E

Notice how the B half-dim leads nicely to the E7


#4-7-3-6

F# / A-C-E *F# half-dim, Fm7(b5)
B / A-D-F *B half-dim, Bm7(b5)
E / G#-C-D-G *E7(#5/#9)
A / G-C-E

Here we got a double use of the half-dim chord. You got the F# half-dim leading to the B half-dim, which then leads to the E7


2-5-1

D / Ab-C-D-F *D half-dim, Dm7(b5)
G / G-C-E
G / F-B-D *G7
C / E-G-C

Another use, this time the D half-dim leads to the G7, even though the dom. chord isn't played right after


2-5-1

D / F#-A-C-E *D9, F# half-dim chord in RH
G / F-Ab-B-D *G7(b9)
C / G-B-E

Technically, this isn't a use of the half-dim chord itself, but there is an F# half-dim chord in the RH part of the chord


#4-5-1 (2-5 alternate of above)

F# / A-C-E *F# half-dim, F#m7(b5)
G / F-G-B-D# *G7(#5)
C / Bb-E-A-C

Like it says in the title, instead of playing the 2-5-1 above, u can play this F# half-dim in place of the 2

Kind've off topic but I find it interesting that you played the 3 chord as a dominant instead of a minor. Can u elaborate some on why that works? (or point me in the right direction of the topic has already been covered!)


-J

[T-Block]

Kind've off topic but I find it interesting that you played the 3 chord as a dominant instead of a minor. Can u elaborate some on why that works? (or point me in the right direction of the topic has already been covered!)

I played it as a dominant because it leads nicely to the 6. This is called a secondary dominant. You can form a dominant chord on any scale degree, and it resolves to 4 of the chord. The only true dominant is 5-1, anything else is a secondary dominant.

Examples of sec. dom. movements are 2-5, 6-2, 3-6, 7-3, and 1-4. The first chord in each group is the sec. dom. chord, and you see how each one resolves to 4 of the chord.


2-5 in C

D / D-F#-A
G / D-G-B *G is 4 of D

A big clue that tells u this is sec. dom. motion is because of that F#. Normally, since this is a 2 chord, the F would be natural. In this case it is sharped. F# is the leading tone to G.

Richard Smallwood uses sec. dom. all throughout his music. So, if want to hear some good examples, get some of his music.

Does that help?

[Bullitt]

I played it as a dominant because it leads nicely to the 6. This is called a secondary dominant. You can form a dominant chord on any scale degree, and it resolves to 4 of the chord. The only true dominant is 5-1, anything else is a secondary dominant.

Examples of sec. dom. movements are 2-5, 6-2, 3-6, 7-3, and 1-4. The first chord in each group is the sec. dom. chord, and you see how each one resolves to 4 of the chord.


2-5 in C

D / D-F#-A
G / D-G-B *G is 4 of D

A big clue that tells u this is sec. dom. motion is because of that F#. Normally, since this is a 2 chord, the F would be natural. In this case it is sharped. F# is the leading tone to G.

Richard Smallwood uses sec. dom. all throughout his music. So, if want to hear some good examples, get some of his music.

Does that help?

Yep!!!  You hit the nail on the head! I also learned a new definition in the process (I had heard of secondary dominants but never knew exactly what it was)....

So technically, I could use a sec. dom. to change keys also right?
For example if I were using the 2-5 in C that you spelled out above, I could stay in C or use the sec. dom. (D/D-F#-A) to go to the key of G or am I getting ahead of myself...


-J

[T-Block]

So technically, I could use a sec. dom. to change keys also right?
For example if I were using the 2-5 in C that you spelled out above, I could stay in C or use the sec. dom. (D/D-F#-A) to go to the key of G or am I getting ahead of myself...

You could totatlly do that. In fact, a lot of classical music does that. They modulate within the key to the dominant (5), sub-dominant (4), even the sub-mediant (6), but they still keep the same key signature and use accidentals to show the modulation.

[Bullitt]

You could totatlly do that. In fact, a lot of classical music does that. They modulate within the key to the dominant (5), sub-dominant (4), even the sub-mediant (6), but they still keep the same key signature and use accidentals to show the modulation.

Oh wow that's deep doc! lol, I gotta do some hw on these chords and their usage tonight 

How would you use them to get to the 4 or 6 as you mentioned above? Still use the sec. dom. and then walk down/up to the 4 or 6 of the "new" key or bypass the sec. dom. and some how go directly to the sub-dom or sub-med?


lol, sorry for all the q's I'm just intrigued now


-J

[T-Block]

Oh wow that's deep doc! lol, I gotta do some hw on these chords and their usage tonight 

How would you use them to get to the 4 or 6 as you mentioned above? Still use the sec. dom. and then walk down/up to the 4 or 6 of the "new" key or bypass the sec. dom. and some how go directly to the sub-dom or sub-med?
-J

What I was explaining was modulation within the key itself. So, if ur in the key of C, u can modulate to the dominant of C (G), the sub-dominant of C (F), or even the sub-mediant of C (6) using sec. dominant chords.

Getting to the 4 is really easy.  All you gotta do is play a dominant 7th chord on 1, then it resolves to 4, and you an stay there for your new key. So, let's say ur in F:

F / A-C-F
F / A-C-Eb-F *F7, sec. dominant, resolves to 4 which is Bb
Bb / F-Bb-D *sub-dominant of F, new key is Bb

Then, if u wanted to stay in Bb, u would have to play some stuff to establish it as the new key.

For 6, all u do is a 7-3-6 progression, then stay in 6 as your new key. You could stay in minor, or switch to major. Again, in F:

F / A-C-F
E / D-G-Bb *7
A / C#-F-G-C *3, sec. dom. chord, resolves to 6
D / A-D-F *sub-mediant of F, new key is D minor

or

F / A-C-F
E / D-G-Bb *7
A / C#-F-G-C *3, sec. dom. chord, resolves to 6
D / A-D-F# *sub-mediant of F, new key is D major

Just like on the 4, if u want 6 to be your new key, then u gotta play some chords to establish it.

[Bullitt]

What I was explaining was modulation within the key itself. So, if ur in the key of C, u can modulate to the dominant of C (G), the sub-dominant of C (F), or even the sub-mediant of C (6) using sec. dominant chords.

Getting to the 4 is really easy.  All you gotta do is play a dominant 7th chord on 1, then it resolves to 4, and you an stay there for your new key. So, let's say ur in F:

F / A-C-F
F / A-C-Eb-F *F7, sec. dominant, resolves to 4 which is Bb
Bb / F-Bb-D *sub-dominant of F, new key is Bb

Then, if u wanted to stay in Bb, u would have to play some stuff to establish it as the new key.

For 6, all u do is a 7-3-6 progression, then stay in 6 as your new key. You could stay in minor, or switch to major. Again, in F:

F / A-C-F
E / D-G-Bb *7
A / C#-F-G-C *3, sec. dom. chord, resolves to 6
D / A-D-F *sub-mediant of F, new key is D minor

or

F / A-C-F
E / D-G-Bb *7
A / C#-F-G-C *3, sec. dom. chord, resolves to 6
D / A-D-F# *sub-mediant of F, new key is D major

Just like on the 4, if u want 6 to be your new key, then u gotta play some chords to establish it.

yea, I def can't wait to get off work and try some of this stuff out tonight lol....can someone pass the collection plate around LGM for a special brotha Block love offering?!?

thanks man, you've got my mind working overtime but I'm hungry for more knowledge!


-J

[T-Block]

Stay hungry man, and you shall be filled.

[docjohn]

hey T;have been playing around with this ;in C added Emaj 7 and Bb turn before the A min-sounded pretty wild.does that fit with the 7-3-6 theory/ thanks guys for all the help

[T-Block]

hey T;have been playing around with this ;in C added Emaj 7 and Bb turn before the A min-sounded pretty wild.does that fit with the 7-3-6 theory/ thanks guys for all the help

Depends on how u voice it, but that works fine.