Circle of 4ths and 5ths

[gtsjames]

Can someone explain what exactly the circle of 4ths and 5ths are and the theory behind them? I've been seeing people throw the terms around and not sure what theyre talking about....
I would appreciate and info....   :?:

[JoyCH]

It's a method to practice all of the keys on the keyboard. It starts with C then F then Bb and so on until you go around through every key counter-clockwise. I know if you look in the Music Theory, Piano board you will see several post on it.

If you don't find it, let me know and I'll check for you.

Joy

[gtsjames]

It's a method to practice all of the keys on the keyboard. It starts with C then F then Bb and so on until you go around through every key counter-clockwise. I know if you look in the Music Theory, Piano board you will see several post on it.

If you don't find it, let me know and I'll check for you.

Joy

Hey thanks for the reply. I looked through all the posts here and I found some information but then most of it just went way over my head, they assumed I had some basic knowledge of what the cycles were.

Is there a pattern that I follow? My teacher has me do this progression
1-6-4-2-5-5(octave)-1 and I do that starting in every key to get used to playing different chords in each key for 12 keys I play a total of 12 x 7 chords (This does get a little monotonous / tedious/time consuming at times). Are we looking at something like that, but with all keys, or is it something simpler that I'm just overthinking? One of my major deficiencies currently is that I dont move comfortably between keys and from what I've seen posted If I can master this then that should help my playing in that regard. Again I appreciate you taking the time to help
 :?

[gtsjames]

I did some more reading and I understand the theory behind it (I found the circular chart and stuff) and I see how it works going around but how do I practice it? Are there exercises that I'm supposed to follow?

[JoyCH]

gtsjames:

I think everybody can agree it takes time, practic and prayer to learn to play. But you must practice and practice like you do anything else that you want to be good at.

I would start out with the C scales and C chords and maybe the F scales and chords. Then the next nite go to Bb and so on. You don't have to do every scale every nite. I wouldn't progress until I have the previous scale down good before moving to the next. You want to learn not just get by.

Hope this helps, let me know if you need anything else.

Joy

[gtsjames]

gtsjames:

I think everybody can agree it takes time, practic and prayer to learn to play. But you must practice and practice like you do anything else that you want to be good at.

I would start out with the C scales and C chords and maybe the F scales and chords. Then the next nite go to Bb and so on. You don't have to do every scale every nite. I wouldn't progress until I have the previous scale down good before moving to the next. You want to learn not just get by.

Hope this helps, let me know if you need anything else.

Joy

Time and practice I dont mind.
So just so that I start off down the beaten path here:
1. When we talk about C scales, are we just looking at major/minor/chromatics or are there others I should be practicing?
2. You mention chords, are we talking about all chords, all inversion, or are there specifics? Standard chord triads etc?
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm not understanding what your pointing me in the direction of, I tend to be a little dense sometimes  :oops:
If it makes it easier in giving instructions, currently I can go through all major and natural minor scales and I can fumble around playing any chord in a given key, so I can muddle through most simple progressions a key at a time, cant transition smoothly though. Is that what I should be working towards? I am I just totally off course here  :?

[aljeres]

gtsjames:

I think everybody can agree it takes time, practic and prayer to learn to play. But you must practice and practice like you do anything else that you want to be good at.

I would start out with the C scales and C chords and maybe the F scales and chords. Then the next nite go to Bb and so on. You don't have to do every scale every nite. I wouldn't progress until I have the previous scale down good before moving to the next. You want to learn not just get by.

Hope this helps, let me know if you need anything else.

Joy

Time and practice I dont mind.
So just so that I start off down the beaten path here:
1. When we talk about C scales, are we just looking at major/minor/chromatics or are there others I should be practicing?
2. You mention chords, are we talking about all chords, all inversion, or are there specifics? Standard chord triads etc?
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm not understanding what your pointing me in the direction of, I tend to be a little dense sometimes  :oops:
If it makes it easier in giving instructions, currently I can go through all major and natural minor scales and I can fumble around playing any chord in a given key, so I can muddle through most simple progressions a key at a time, cant transition smoothly though. Is that what I should be working towards? I am I just totally off course here  :?

i have been reading your post and have an idea; you really want to transition better.........and there is no better way to learn transitioning than to do the circle of fourths and fifths.....there are three basic chords to any ley you need to really know, and know well!  that's the 1-4-5's in every key........now; when you do the circle of fourths and fifths, this is a gauranteed way to learn to transition from one keys fourth to another keys fourth and likewise for the fifths......ok now look at this for a sec...


C/CEG_____F/FAC....   NOW IN THIS EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE NOW MOVED FROM THE 1 CHORD IN THE KEY OF C, TO IT'S  4 CHORD WHICH IS  F....

OK, NOW THAT'S THINKING IN TERMS OF THE KEY OF C...

NOW IF WE CONTINUE!

F/FAC____Bb/BbDF....NOW AFTER GETTING TO THE 4 IN  C, YOU NOW HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR MINDSET; AND ACT AS THOUGH, YOU'RE IN THE KEY OF  F....AND SO NOW THE   4  BECOMES A  1 BECAUSE, WE NOW HAVE TO GO TO ITS'  4  WHICH IS Bb.....


NOW I THINK YOU CAN SEE THE PATTERN HERE, IF YOU CONTINUE IN THIS PATTERN, YOU WILL INDEED NO EVERY KEYS NOTE, THAT IS A FOURTH AWAY....IN OTHER WORDS, IF I WANT TO GO FROM THE 5 IN A KEY TO THE  1 IN THAT KEY.....I SIMPLY MOVE A FOURTH AWAY.....THIS IS NEEDED IN TRANSITIONAL PLAYING......THIS WILL MAKE TRANSITIONING MUCH, MUCH EASIER......

NOW; THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS IS SIMILAR...

C/CEG______G/GBD______D/DF#A_______A/AC#E...

NOW I DID THIS SO YOU WILL SEE TWO THINGS AT ONECE; YOUR GOING FROM  THE  1 IN  C TO THE  5 WHICH IS G...AND  D IS THE  5 TO THE  G....  AND  A IS THE  5 TO THE  D......

BUT NOW IF YOU GO THE OTHER DIRECTION, YOU WILL SEE YOUR REALLY PLAYING THE 4  OF THE  A  WHEN YOU PLAY THE  D....  AND THE  4 OF THE   D  WHEN YOU  PLAY THE  G   AND THE  4 OF THE  G  WHEN YOU PLAY THE  C.....SO YOU OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO SEE HOW MUCH OF A BENEFIT IT IS JUST KNOWING THE CIRCLE OF FOURTHS AND THE FIFTHS.....FACT IS YOU CANT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW! LOOK AT THIS;...SAY I WANT TO GO FROM C# TO THE KEY OF C...I WOULD PLAY;

Ab/AbCEb_____G/GBD______C/CEG.... NOW ALL I DID IS GO FROM THE 5  IN C# TO THE 5  IN C  WHICH IS A HALF STEP BELOW IT; AND FINISHED BY GOING TO THE ONE!!!!!

I HOPE THIS WAS ABLE TO HELP YOU!!!!

[gtsjames]

i have been reading your post and have an idea; you really want to transition better.........and there is no better way to learn transitioning than to do the circle of fourths and fifths.....there are three basic chords to any ley you need to really know, and know well!  that's the 1-4-5's in every key........now; when you do the circle of fourths and fifths, this is a gauranteed way to learn to transition from one keys fourth to another keys fourth and likewise for the fifths......ok now look at this for a sec...


C/CEG_____F/FAC....   NOW IN THIS EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE NOW MOVED FROM THE 1 CHORD IN THE KEY OF C, TO IT'S  4 CHORD WHICH IS  F....

OK, NOW THAT'S THINKING IN TERMS OF THE KEY OF C...

NOW IF WE CONTINUE!

F/FAC____Bb/BbDF....NOW AFTER GETTING TO THE 4 IN  C, YOU NOW HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR MINDSET; AND ACT AS THOUGH, YOU'RE IN THE KEY OF  F....AND SO NOW THE   4  BECOMES A  1 BECAUSE, WE NOW HAVE TO GO TO ITS'  4  WHICH IS Bb.....


NOW I THINK YOU CAN SEE THE PATTERN HERE, IF YOU CONTINUE IN THIS PATTERN, YOU WILL INDEED NO EVERY KEYS NOTE, THAT IS A FOURTH AWAY....IN OTHER WORDS, IF I WANT TO GO FROM THE 5 IN A KEY TO THE  1 IN THAT KEY.....I SIMPLY MOVE A FOURTH AWAY.....THIS IS NEEDED IN TRANSITIONAL PLAYING......THIS WILL MAKE TRANSITIONING MUCH, MUCH EASIER......

NOW; THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS IS SIMILAR...

C/CEG______G/GBD______D/DF#A_______A/AC#E...

NOW I DID THIS SO YOU WILL SEE TWO THINGS AT ONECE; YOUR GOING FROM  THE  1 IN  C TO THE  5 WHICH IS G...AND  D IS THE  5 TO THE  G....  AND  A IS THE  5 TO THE  D......

BUT NOW IF YOU GO THE OTHER DIRECTION, YOU WILL SEE YOUR REALLY PLAYING THE 4  OF THE  A  WHEN YOU PLAY THE  D....  AND THE  4 OF THE   D  WHEN YOU  PLAY THE  G   AND THE  4 OF THE  G  WHEN YOU PLAY THE  C.....SO YOU OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO SEE HOW MUCH OF A BENEFIT IT IS JUST KNOWING THE CIRCLE OF FOURTHS AND THE FIFTHS.....FACT IS YOU CANT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW! LOOK AT THIS;...SAY I WANT TO GO FROM C# TO THE KEY OF C...I WOULD PLAY;

Ab/AbCEb_____G/GBD______C/CEG.... NOW ALL I DID IS GO FROM THE 5  IN C# TO THE 5  IN C  WHICH IS A HALF STEP BELOW IT; AND FINISHED BY GOING TO THE ONE!!!!!

I HOPE THIS WAS ABLE TO HELP YOU!!!!

Ok. I see how this would get you to learn the chord. Question I have now then is how you jumped from the 5 in C# to the 5 in C without going through any of the intermediate 5ths, or do you jusmp because you just know what the 5th is.

[JoyCH]

William3000 - hope the above give you some insite.

Joy

[jremon]

The circle of fourths and fifths is all about intervals. Intervals in music is the distance between two notes. The circle of fifths is based on intervals a perfect fifth apart. So, if you start on C and use it and go up five whole steps, you land on the next key. (i.e. C, D, E, F, G) So, G is the next key. Next, start on G and go five whole steps, (i.e. G, A, B, C, D.) So, D is the next key. It keeps going until you reach C again. Now, in order to make the circle come out right, you will have to respell one key enharmonicly. In other words, you may have to repell the key of C# to Db. It is the same key, just spelled differently. If you take the circle of fifths and invert the notes, go down instead of up, you will create a circle of fourths it works the same way. I agree that it is important to know the I - IV - V progression in every key. However, one of the most important progressions in all of music is ii - V7 - I. It would be very benefitial to learn this progression in all keys (Major and Minor.)

Hope that this helps a little.


jremon
Austin, TX