A Few Questions About Theory and Technique

[Asahel]

Hi!  To the point here are my questions:

1) My 4-string bass covers (in 1st position) from E (open string) to B (4th fret, G string); next fret up would be C.  This range covers from middle C on a piano all the way down to E on that bass clef.  Let's say I have a score, and it tells me I should play a C.  Which C?  A string 3rd fret?  Or G string 8th fret?  How do I know by looking at the score which position on the fretboard that note is referring to?

2) I went through Hal Leonard's Bass 1 book, and in that book they teach the one-finger-per-fret method.  So I play a B on the G string with my fourth finger (pinky).  Now I moved on to  Hal Leonard's Bass Method Complete Edition (covers books 1, 2, & 3) but on that book they teach you to use finger 1-2-4, IOW, you play an A# with your fourth finger and not your third.  I want to stick with the one-finger-per-fret method, but my hand is small...  Yeah I can reach the first four frets each with its corresponding finger, but I have to stretch my hand quite a bit.  Should I give this up (fretting technique) or can I expect that through practice (I'm going through Bass Fitness & Todd Johnson's Technique Builders) I'll gain that flexibility and dexterity?

3) I have Alex Sampson't Bass Guitar Secrets, and in that course he talks about counting scale degrees (1,2,3)... then, depending on whether you are ascending or descending, and on the degree you're on, you plug in a mini-scale fragment (WW, WH, or HW) at the next corresponding degree (not sure I'm explaining this right, but for those of you that have the course you'll know what I mean).  Question is, who of you actually counts scale degrees while you are playing?  Isn't your playing based on sonic familiarity with the fretboard rather than mechanical (formula-based) familiarity?

Thanks!

[dhagler]

{Disclaimer: this is just my opinion.}

Your fingering position should be determined by the key signature of the song. For example, if you are playing in C major you would use 2nd position so that the first note of the scale, C, would be underneath your 3rd finger on the A-string. D would be under your pinky. E would be under your index finger on the next string up (the D-string). F would be under your third finger again on the same string as E. G would be under your pinky on the same string as E and F. A would be under your index finger on the next string up (the G-string), B would be under your ring finger on the same string as A, and C would be under your pinky on the same string as A and B.

All major scales have the same relative position. Where they differ is where the root note is, so you always position your hand so that the root note is under your third finger. Then follow the pattern.  F and B-flat are different because they are on the first fret of the E and A strings, respectively. So also E and A because they are open strings. However, you could also start A at the 5th fret of the E string and B-flat at the 6th fret of the E string and be able to use the pattern.

Hope this helps. Again, just my opinion.

[Asahel]

For major scales I try to position my 2nd finger over the root, that way I can use my 4th finger for the immediate W interval (two frets) that follows a root in a major scale (pattern WWHWWWH).

ToDo: Learn the key signatures in the Circle of 5ths so that I can recognize the key a song is written in (looking at the score).

The purpose behind what I'm trying to do is to learn to sight-read.  I got the Bass Tab White Pages book, and yesterday I got my son one called "...Ultimate Fake Book..." (with over 1200 songs; I checked and they all have a bass clef score).  Between those two I should be able to stay busy trying to sight read for quite a while.

I'm thinking about getting some Marcus Miller, Nathan East (and others) music to start listening to.

[dhagler]

For major scales I try to position my 2nd finger over the root, that way I can use my 4th finger for the immediate W interval (two frets) that follows a root in a major scale (pattern WWHWWWH).

ToDo: Learn the key signatures in the Circle of 5ths so that I can recognize the key a song is written in (looking at the score).

The purpose behind what I'm trying to do is to learn to sight-read.  I got the Bass Tab White Pages book, and yesterday I got my son one called "...Ultimate Fake Book..." (with over 1200 songs; I checked and they all have a bass clef score).  Between those two I should be able to stay busy trying to sight read for quite a while.

I'm thinking about getting some Marcus Miller, Nathan East (and others) music to start listening to.

Sounds like you already have a leg up and where you are trying to go. And you have a good plan. I know you will get there!

[B3Wannabe]

I like what dhagler said. I switch sometimes, but generally, I use the same method as Asahel.

I think in scale degrees for the main parts of a song, but when I throw a run in there, I think tonally.

[Torch7]

Hi!  To the point here are my questions:

1) My 4-string bass covers (in 1st position) from E (open string) to B (4th fret, G string); next fret up would be C.  This range covers from middle C on a piano all the way down to E on that bass clef.  Let's say I have a score, and it tells me I should play a C.  Which C?  A string 3rd fret?  Or G string 8th fret?  How do I know by looking at the score which position on the fretboard that note is referring to?

2) I went through Hal Leonard's Bass 1 book, and in that book they teach the one-finger-per-fret method.  So I play a B on the G string with my fourth finger (pinky).  Now I moved on to  Hal Leonard's Bass Method Complete Edition (covers books 1, 2, & 3) but on that book they teach you to use finger 1-2-4, IOW, you play an A# with your fourth finger and not your third.  I want to stick with the one-finger-per-fret method, but my hand is small...  Yeah I can reach the first four frets each with its corresponding finger, but I have to stretch my hand quite a bit.  Should I give this up (fretting technique) or can I expect that through practice (I'm going through Bass Fitness & Todd Johnson's Technique Builders) I'll gain that flexibility and dexterity?

3) I have Alex Sampson't Bass Guitar Secrets, and in that course he talks about counting scale degrees (1,2,3)... then, depending on whether you are ascending or descending, and on the degree you're on, you plug in a mini-scale fragment (WW, WH, or HW) at the next corresponding degree (not sure I'm explaining this right, but for those of you that have the course you'll know what I mean).  Question is, who of you actually counts scale degrees while you are playing?  Isn't your playing based on sonic familiarity with the fretboard rather than mechanical (formula-based) familiarity?

Thanks!

1.) B3Wannabe posted and image that should put you in the right positions.

2.) I am from the school of belief that you should play what if comfortable for you and sets you up to reach your next note.  I very rarely see bass players that I like to watch stay in a 1 finger per fret position unless they are executing a simple groove concept.

3.)I would say a combination of both.  I think the key is practicing and knowing where the scale degrees are at all times, in relation to where you are at.  knowing  the distance of the interval gives you freedom to play, what you hear in your head.  I think you are well on your way like Dhalgler was saying, I would add singing the intervals if you are not already doing so.

[Quebass86]

Like Torch7 said, do what is comfortable. It is good to have proper technique and fingering down but not every can do it and be comfortable. If you look at Larry Graham and Luis Johnson their technique is not what one would consider proper but the way the play works for them and has made their style fit for them for decades. For me I change my finering depending on if it is a slow song or fast song, has alot of changes,etc...whatever feels comfortable for me at the time and allows me to play the easiest...you will be fine. Learn those scales and modes inside out. Once you get that down things are so much easier

[Fingers!]

Question is, who of you actually counts scale degrees while you are playing?  Isn't your playing based on sonic familiarity with the fretboard rather than mechanical (formula-based) familiarity?

I do, as far as progressions.  I try and keep up with where I'm at within the scale as much as possible.  I hate it when the MOM spins around to me in the middle of a fast-moving song and say something like 6-2-5, not realizing that he caught me playing patterns. 

Sonic vs Mechanical:  It's some of both.  Some players actually reach the point of almost pure sonic, their fingers automatically connect with their ears.  I hate those guys...they're terrifying!  They make me feel like packing my stuff up, take it home and become an usher.   

[floaded27]

They make me feel like packing my stuff up, take it home and become an usher.  

hey u can be an usher AND a bass player. i am.

1) not sure about full sheet music, but with chord charts, you can play any C if it calls for a C. I usually play the one im most familiar with because i can find it the quickest. but as i learn my fretboard better i'll have more options.

2) those hand positions are a good general rule of thumb, but it doesnt work for everyone. different bass measurements and different hand sizes vary so that cant work comfortably for all. you have to find what works best for you. i'd say start from there as a reference point and make adjustments based on what feels right for you. if you observe many bass players, none of them play exactly the same.

3) i always count scale degrees and patterns. just today in rehearsal i was trying to learn a song and the keyboard player was calling out notes. i took the notes and was trying to figure out where they fit in the scale so i could build the pattern. the notes by themselves were useless to me because the key was going to change twice, and once that happens none of those notes apply anymore, but the pattern stays the same.

also using patterns to find my way around the fingerboard helps me transition what i play to anywhere on the neck

[dhagler]

The numbering system is, IMHO, most useful. For example, relative to your "1" you have a "4" one string up same fret or one string and two frets down. You have a "5" one string down or one string and two frets up.

By the way, learning the cycles of fourths and fifths is invaluable.

[Quebass86]

The numbering system is, IMHO, most useful. For example, relative to your "1" you have a "4" one string up same fret or one string and two frets down. You have a "5" one string down or one string and two frets up.

By the way, learning the cycles of fourths and fifths is invaluable.

Amen Dhag! That is why I always ask and learn the progression instead of the notes first. As with alot of gospel music there are times when a song modulates and several times. If you know the progression you can easily play it in any key verses knowing the exact notes. A 1-3-6-2-5-1 progression is the same in F as it is in Ab.

At my church if the men sing the same song as the mass choir or womens choir it is usually in a different key so the number system (progressions) is in my opinion the best. knowing your neck and where notes are combined with that makes it even better.

[kevmove02]

To Asahel:

In Hal Leonard Complete Bass Method, there are 2 ways approaches to fretting, found on pages 11 and 65. i would recommend using the approach that is most comfortable. I switch back and forth, based on the where I need to go next. If using the 124 method helps me to play cleanly, I will use that. If the 1234 method, sets me up for the next run of notes, I use that. The key is which method allows me to play the most notes cleanly with the least amount of shifting. While it may look cool when someone is zipping all over the fretboard, it is not necessary.

Here is a tool that helps link the world of keyboards to the world of fretboards:

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/reading-music/bass-clef-fretboard-notes/

This is a little different from the example above. Keep in mind, there are no semitones between B and C or between E and F.

You have some great resources, so keep practicing everyday.

[Asahel]

Hey Kev (and everyone),

Thanks a bunch for all of your tips!  When I went to pg 65 and read about the OFPF and the pivoting technique between the 2nd & 3rd fingers, that made my day! I feel so relieved to know my playing technique will be specific to me as an individual and playing style.

I made the "mistake" of getting one of Nathan East's videos (Comtemporary Bass) and Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop...  I may never play like them, but boy, am I hooked!!!!

Another Q:  which right-hand technique do you use (assuming you're right-handed)?  1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 fingers?  I started with 2, but now I guess I'm going to switch to 3 (index, middle, ring) as well as my thumb once I learn how to slap properly.

Right now when I slap I don't get a "popping" sound, but mostly like a "hammering" sound against the 20-something frets (where I'm slapping).  I don't know if it's just me, or my bass, or the strings I put on (DR Fat Beams as recommended on another thread I read on this forum).  This brother I ran into at GC was slapping all over the place (and sounded good too!) so I asked him.  He told me it would take me a long time to learn that.  I asked him how long he had been playing and he said "20 years".  Man, I ain't got 20 years to learn!  I know I'm not a teen and I'll probably won't be as good as if I had started earlier in my life, but 20 years!?  No way! Ok, all in the Lord's time.

Peace and Blessings

[Asahel]

Hi,

I found the following two links from a guy called Dave Marks about the OFPF system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXkxu_7Tn48&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y57-2eaTBwc&NR=1

That, combined with Hal Leonard's complete p.65 has left me thinking...

I need to make some decisions about when to use 124, or OFPF.  I'm learning and I need some consistency in my fretting system.

[kevmove02]

I'm glad to hear that you got some clarity on the fingering methods. As far as right hand technique, you will learn finger style and slap and decide which one expresses what you are feeling musically. It won't take you 20 years to get good at slap, as long as you practice the basics and develop dexterity and your muting technique. Keep in mind that slap is as much a function of equipment as it is technique. The amp settings and bass setup that are best for fingerstyle don't work well for slap.

[Asahel]

>>The amp settings and bass setup that are best for fingerstyle don't work well for slap.<<

Which settings are good for slap and which are good for fingerstyle? (bass brand, model, strings, amp, any other variables?)

Thanks!

[floaded27]

Which settings are good for slap and which are good for fingerstyle? (bass brand, model, strings, amp, any other variables?)

those arent usually the main factors, though changing those can get varied results.

the main factors are your amp settings (eq - most people boost the lows and highs and cut the mids), your bass settings (eq - same thing, pickups - most common is to blend more to the front pickup, but adjusting will change ur tone so go by what you like - there is no set rule), bass setup (action should be low since higher action means you have to hit much harder to get the strings to sound, strings - roundwounds usually give u better tone over flats for slapping, but brands offer so much variety even within a single brand, you may have to try out a few different ones and stick with what u like)

those (in my opinion and learning) are the most influential factors in getting a good sound for slap. remember there is no "when you slap you HAVE to sound like this" rule, so its more of what you like or want to sound like. every variable is going to add some variation to the sound, but with the right settings many, not all, of those variables you can adjust for.

[kevmove02]

floaded27 just gave you some excellent advice. Far too often, people will run out and buy a new bass or a new cabinet because someone told them that their gear wasn't good enough or other gear would be better. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that most 2 pickup style basses can produce a decent "slap" sound. A decent amp is another matter all together. Getting an amp that has decent power output and some form of parametric equalizer is paramount. For example, the "scooped" sound that floaded27 described would be hard to create on an amp that only has a 3 band EQ.  Or if you tried to slap on an underpowered amp, you would always feel like you were missing something.

If you can be patient, postpone any further gear purchases until you get more comfortable with playing bass. One of my regrets is that I fell into the better gear = better playing trap. In reality, its better playing + better gear = better performance.

[Asahel]

Thanks floaded and kevmove.  This (your advice) is really helpful. 

I'm trying to squeeze as much as I can out of my Ibanez 4-stringer and Fender Rumble 15 before I even think of upgrading.  If I can't make what I've got sound good based on my chops and musical expression ability then there's no business for me wanting to upgrade to anything better. 

One thing I do before every practice session is ensure that the bass is in tune (and I check the tuning throughout my practice session); that way I am training my ear to hear the right pitch.  I have checked and the open string note, the 12th harmonic and the note at the 12th fret are all perfect, meaning good intonation.  I have also lowered the strings as much as I can w/o fretbuz; as a matter of fact the action cannot be set lower for the E & G strings.  The A and D strings still have some room but I want the string to follow the curvature of the fretboard, so these are just a tad higher.  I'm no expert, but I think my bass is "playable", I am learning, I am having a good time, and I hope to honor God through it.  I should be able to learn to groove "in the pocket" with it... once I see this happening that'll be the time for upgrading decisions.

I was suspecting there was something else to slapping... but let's just put it this way: if I can learn slap with my current setup, and I slap anything, anytime, anywhere.   

[Asahel]

BTW folks, I recently found and purchased the following software program:

http://www.absolutefretboard.com/

I've heard good things about it and so far have found it very useful just having the program present me with a note while I try to say the note and play it on my bass.

I know you can just memorize the whole fretboard and do all of these things w/o having to spend $49 but I find that this program just make it all much easier for me.

I'm doing this and some ear training with EarMaster Pro.

I know it will take time and effort but with God's help I'll get there.