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[CLASSICK]

What's good everybody? i believe this is my first thread...
I want 2 say that I'm blessed to have found this site..IT'S GREAT...!!!!!

QUESTION:

I'm really interested in learning more about music theory and how certain songs work and why others "don't".... I know its kinda subjective and its really based on our opinions...



but...I was wondering if any body could help me on specific songs...like i don't just want the chords.. I kind of want a song analysis.... if anybody can help...



here's a link of what I'm talking about....

http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME01/Building_a_Mystery.shtml

just translate it 2 English....



It doesn't need 2 be THAT thorough...lol... i just wanna know why certain chords can work sometimes..and why they can't other times...NO, I'm not looking 4 an easy way out... i feel like the easy way out is just learning the songs...which i know some songs on the keys..(i just began learning to play by ear...but i can read music also..)



I wanna get a better understanding of why the chords can work in place of others etc....



if anyone can help....I'd like to start with Aaron Hall's "I miss you"....





thx 4 reading...... 





P.s. would also like help with arranging if anyone has the skills for it.....and is willing....

[T-Block]

Well, from a basic theory standpoint, most of the songs that "work" tend to follow the musical zip code:

(7)-3-6-2-5-1-(4)

So, if u take some well known songs and break down the bass into numbers, u will start to see some of the patterns in that song. And usually those patterns follow the zip code in some form or fashion. I'll take a really easy song, "Now Behold The Lamb" by Kirk Franklin and show u:

Key Bb

D / F-Bb-D Now be-
Eb / G-Bb-Eb hold the
F / A-C-F Lamb,
(repeat)

D / F-Bb-D born itno
Eb / G-Bb-Eb sin that I
F / A-C-F may
Gb / A-C-Eb-Gb live a-
G / Bb-D-G gain, the
C / G-Bb-Eb precious
F / A-C-F Lamb of
Bb / Bb-D-F God.

Now, what u do is take the bass and break it down into numbers using the key of Bb. I always start with the bass notes, so I'm gonna do that:

D = 3
Eb = 4
F = 5

Gb = b6
G = 6
C = 2
F = 5
Bb = 1

O.K., looking at that second part, u can see the musical zip code verbatim starting with 6. It goes 6-2-5-1. Now, let's look at the other notes.

It starts with a 3 in the bass. So, if u look at the zip code, a 3 is usually followed by a 6. But, in this case, it's followed by a 4. Why is that? To answer that, u have to look at the chord.

The chord with it is a Bb major chord. In the key of Bb, that's a 1 chord. And in the music zip code, 1 is followed by 4. So, what u have is a 1 w/3 in the bass, then 4. Next, comes the 5 chord. Now, usually a 2 comes before 5, but in music 2 and 4 can be used interchangeably, so it's fine. Then, the 5 leads right back to 1.

So, for the first part u got: 1-4-5

Now, on the second part, they repeat the 1-4-5 again, then they throw in that dim.7 chord. Dim7 chords 9th chords w/out a root. To find the root, u look at the chord it resolves to. The chord it goes to is a 6. So, if u check the music zip code, 3 comes before 6.

So, it's really a 3-6, then it keeps going with 2-5-1. So, the whole song is: 1-4-5(repeat) 1-4-5-3-6-2-5-1

Does that make sense? I hope so. Let's move on to chord selection. Chord selection is based on where u are in a song, where ur going, and what sounds good. It is also based around the  melody of the song. There are no concrete chords that have to be played in certain spots, but there are chords that have been proven to work in certain spots. For example, using the the first 3 chords of "Now Behold The Lamb":

D / F-Bb-D
Eb / G-Bb-Eb
F / A-C-F

Now, even though u have a 3 in the bass there, u wouldn't want to play a 3 chord cuz it wouldn't sound good. Also, ur going to a 4 next, so looking at the zip code, a 3 chord wouldn't be ur smartest move at this time. To add to that, the melody note is a Bb I think (doing this from memory, so please excuse errors). A 3 chord here is D-F-A, so that definitely wouldn't fit.

U see what I mean? Using theory and ur ears, u can find what chords work and what chords won't. While u practice and experiment with different chord combos, when u find something that works, remember it and transfer it to every key. Then, once that situation comes around again, u will automatically know what to do.

Does that fully answer ur question?

[CLASSICK]

T-Block,

Yes. It makes perfect sense 2 me. I just recently found out that most gospel songs do this progression. You really cleared something up for me about the 3 being in the bass, but not using the "3" chord...now i understand...
I've got to look at the bass first, THEN the chord, then the chord that follows. Correct?


Thanks for answering.

Have you taking any classes in theory? That is what it seems like. Could you let me know when and where you've taken classes?
I eventually want to pursue a music degree and wanted to know if it was a waste of time like some say.
I'm sure it's not but most people tell me it is.

OH....and If you have time could you show me Aaron Hall's song "I miss You"...
I don't think the lyrics are vulgar or anything. Just wanted 2 know the progression and why it works. But then again, maybe I take this new knowledge of the bass and try 2 figure it out again myself..!!

[T-Block]

Yes, I have had classical training. It started in high school where I got into playing the piano. They gave me my foundation in theory. I continued on throughout high school and into college.

Right now I attend Florida Southern College, where I'm working toward a B.A. in Music Education. It's definitely NOT a waste of time. In fact, learning theory is maybe the main reason why my skills are where they are now. Theory opens up ur mind to different ideas instead of just using ur ears only.

Music really is a mind game. Once u get it upstairs, u can easily translate it to ur fingers. I'm glad this post helped open up ur understanding.

As for the Aaron Hall song, I have that song somewhere. Since this is a gospel music site, I'll have to pm u the chord information out of respect for the owner.

[T-Block]

I'm sorry, I didn't answer ur first question. Yes, u look at the bass first, then match the chord to fit the bass and overall progression of the song.

[CLASSICK]

Yes, I have had classical training. It started in high school where I got into playing the piano. They gave me my foundation in theory. I continued on throughout high school and into college.

Right now I attend Florida Southern College, where I'm working toward a B.A. in Music Education. It's definitely NOT a waste of time. In fact, learning theory is maybe the main reason why my skills are where they are now. Theory opens up ur mind to different ideas instead of just using ur ears only.

Music really is a mind game. Once u get it upstairs, u can easily translate it to ur fingers. I'm glad this post helped open up ur understanding.

As for the Aaron Hall song, I have that song somewhere. Since this is a gospel music site, I'll have to pm u the chord information out of respect for the owner.

Wow....you just answered another question i had without knowing it!!
I was going to ask if it was too late to be classically trained because I want to be.

You said you started in high school and that's when I started having an interest in playing. (CLASS OF 08')
You are an inspiration. I've read several of your posts since I've joined and you've helped tremendously. I guess I just want to have the foundation before I really delve into the style,phat chords, etc...
(even though I've already learned some of the latter) SO THANKS FOR YOUR OPINION!!!!


Now out of respect, I will  ask for "secular" songs elsewhere...or Pm you if you that is fine.
As for the Aaron Hall song, I'll be waiting!!!!

THANKS AGAIN!!!!!
I LOVE THIS SITE!!!![/b][/i]

[diligent-hands]

Well, from a basic theory standpoint, most of the songs that "work" tend to follow the musical zip code:

(7)-3-6-2-5-1-(4)

So, if u take some well known songs and break down the bass into numbers, u will start to see some of the patterns in that song. And usually those patterns follow the zip code in some form or fashion. I'll take a really easy song, "Now Behold The Lamb" by Kirk Franklin and show u:

Key Bb

D / F-Bb-D Now be-
Eb / G-Bb-Eb hold the
F / A-C-F Lamb,
(repeat)

D / F-Bb-D born itno
Eb / G-Bb-Eb sin that I
F / A-C-F may
Gb / A-C-Eb-Gb live a-
G / Bb-D-G gain, the
C / G-Bb-Eb precious
F / A-C-F Lamb of
Bb / Bb-D-F God.

Now, what u do is take the bass and break it down into numbers using the key of Bb. I always start with the bass notes, so I'm gonna do that:

D = 3
Eb = 4
F = 5

Gb = b6
G = 6
C = 2
F = 5
Bb = 1

O.K., looking at that second part, u can see the musical zip code verbatim starting with 6. It goes 6-2-5-1. Now, let's look at the other notes.

It starts with a 3 in the bass. So, if u look at the zip code, a 3 is usually followed by a 6. But, in this case, it's followed by a 4. Why is that? To answer that, u have to look at the chord.

The chord with it is a Bb major chord. In the key of Bb, that's a 1 chord. And in the music zip code, 1 is followed by 4. So, what u have is a 1 w/3 in the bass, then 4. Next, comes the 5 chord. Now, usually a 2 comes before 5, but in music 2 and 4 can be used interchangeably, so it's fine. Then, the 5 leads right back to 1.

So, for the first part u got: 1-4-5

Now, on the second part, they repeat the 1-4-5 again, then they throw in that dim.7 chord. Dim7 chords 9th chords w/out a root. To find the root, u look at the chord it resolves to. The chord it goes to is a 6. So, if u check the music zip code, 3 comes before 6.

So, it's really a 3-6, then it keeps going with 2-5-1. So, the whole song is: 1-4-5(repeat) 1-4-5-3-6-2-5-1

Does that make sense? I hope so. Let's move on to chord selection. Chord selection is based on where u are in a song, where ur going, and what sounds good. It is also based around the  melody of the song. There are no concrete chords that have to be played in certain spots, but there are chords that have been proven to work in certain spots. For example, using the the first 3 chords of "Now Behold The Lamb":

D / F-Bb-D
Eb / G-Bb-Eb
F / A-C-F

Now, even though u have a 3 in the bass there, u wouldn't want to play a 3 chord cuz it wouldn't sound good. Also, ur going to a 4 next, so looking at the zip code, a 3 chord wouldn't be ur smartest move at this time. To add to that, the melody note is a Bb I think (doing this from memory, so please excuse errors). A 3 chord here is D-F-A, so that definitely wouldn't fit.

U see what I mean? Using theory and ur ears, u can find what chords work and what chords won't. While u practice and experiment with different chord combos, when u find something that works, remember it and transfer it to every key. Then, once that situation comes around again, u will automatically know what to do.

Does that fully answer ur question?

God is gonna bless u T.. cuz i would of told him to buy a book..lol

[T-Block]

God is gonna bless u T.. cuz i would of told him to buy a book..lol

LOL, I receive dat!!!

[violist2009]

Right now I attend Florida Southern College, where I'm working toward a B.A. in Music Education. It's definitely NOT a waste of time. In fact, learning theory is maybe the main reason why my skills are where they are now. Theory opens up ur mind to different ideas instead of just using ur ears only.

T-Block at FSC. I did not know that. We are about 20 min away from each other, what a small world.

[T-Block]

T-Block at FSC. I did not know that. We are about 20 min away from each other, what a small world.

What school u at?

[violist2009]

Polk State College(formerly Polk Community College but they just got state status), ^^a. Gonna get my generals done and then transfer over to hopefully SouthEastern or Warner.

[T-Block]

Polk State College(formerly Polk Community College but they just got state status), ^^a. Gonna get my generals done and then transfer over to hopefully SouthEastern or Warner.

That's cool. I got all my 2-year degree at Polk back when it was still a Community College. Maybe sometime we could meet up man and jam.

[violist2009]

That's cool. I got all my 2-year degree at Polk back when it was still a Community College. Maybe sometime we could meet up man and jam.

Sweet man, that would be awesome. 

[musallio]

Wow, thnx T,i actualy learnt smthng new from that 'simple' analysis of Now Behold The Lamb!  you just broadened my way of analyzing progressions. So a big thanx.
A thanx also to guys 4 askng..

[betnich]

Welcome to LGM, Classick...

In College-level Music Theory classes chords are referred to by Roman Numerals rather than letters or numbers...but it's all the same.

Chords usually move by 4ths/5ths, 3rds/6ths according to scale tones - so IMO it is very important to learn major/minor/modal scales and Treble/Bass clef notation before jumping into Theory classes. Take a Musicianship class first. And hanging around people like T-Block at LGM helps, too...

[CLASSICK]

THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE GREAT FEEDBACK!!!!!