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[under13]

You obviously know NOT what you speak of!!!

  ........I'm just gone keep on walking.....just gone keep on walking....

 !

lol...

love them glasses on you...

[sistagurl]

lol...

love them glasses on you...

Watevah!!!!

You dissed my craft mahn... and then you gone tell me you like my glasses on me????





Thank you... hehe

[docjohn]

I think it's just how crazy we all are.While back,I laid down a track on organ for a guitar player.All the while-he's just ooohing + oowwwing.Then;he says"could you try this?".What he wanted me to do would be the equivalent of an axe man switching hands-chording with his right hand and strumming with his left.Like back---ed ward.

Goodbye-session OVER!

[csedwards2]

OK I'll take the other side. It was not a fan who asked for a change but the singer. The lead singer who is the quarterback yada yada football jargon yada yada

dude I hate football, and dont know what the crap yall are talking bout

Vocalist are instrumetalist also.  

Whoever said that singers are musicians too are correct.

I respectfully disagree. A singer, is a singer. They are a dime a dozen. They dont understand music, they can just can sing. They might have taken a lesson or two, but fundamentally, their musical IQ is for all intents and purposes, flat-lined.

On the hand, you have a vocalist, who is a professional. Knows his or her voice, knows diction, music fundamentals, has had coaches and/or specialized training, maybe even a degree in music. They can speak the language, and often times vocalists do more than sing. They spend their time perfecting their craft, then alot even learn keys to accompany their own singing, or guitar, or something like that. They take care of their instrument, do vocal exercises and warmups, give it needed rest, because they have have learned how to get the most from themselves.

Theres nothing wrong with being a singer, especially not a good one. Shoot I need some more for my choir, but a vocalist is a special treat. You are blessed to work with vocalists.

Now in regards to the thread title, Vocalists and singers communicate differently, you'll hear it in the lingo. But I have no problem with either telling me what they want. Unless you are a solo musician, then your job is to "play nicely with others" to take it back to school. If that means taking a suggestion here or there to accomplish the greater good, then so be it.

Now, nobody said be a punching bag. There are some crazy singers and vocalists out there who treat people like a 20-year old welcome mat. That aside, use tact, and diplomacy to work out differences. But dont let our own egos as musicians tell you that you dont need to ever take suggestion or criticism. Thats just stupid. You are not an island. Musicians are team players, we speak a language understood in every lanugage and culture throughout the world. Good music is a converstation, so there is give and take; solos and silence; a time to stand out, and a time to lay out.

If that doesnt work. Loose the singer, and go find a vocalist.

[csedwards2]

Maybe because singers dont practice for hours each day for years to be good. It doesent take all that much to be a good singer, but it takes a whole lot to be a good musician,

using my definition above, U13 would be correct, and not disparaging in anyway to any vocalists (sistagurl) or aspiring vocalists here on this site.

[T-Block]

On the hand, you have a vocalist, who is a professional. Knows his or her voice, knows diction, music fundamentals, has had coaches and/or specialized training, maybe even a degree in music. They can speak the language, and often times vocalists do more than sing. They spend their time perfecting their craft, then alot even learn keys to accompany their own singing, or guitar, or something like that. They take care of their instrument, do vocal exercises and warmups, give it needed rest, because they have have learned how to get the most from themselves.

This is what I meant, vocalist. Tomato, tomahto I guess, .

[csedwards2]

This is what I meant, vocalist. Tomato, tomahto I guess, .

indeed

[axeman1]

dude I hate football, and dont know what the crap yall are talking boutI respectfully disagree. A singer, is a singer. They are a dime a dozen. They dont understand music, they can just can sing. They might have taken a lesson or two, but fundamentally, their musical IQ is for all intents and purposes, flat-lined.

On the hand, you have a vocalist, who is a professional. Knows his or her voice, knows diction, music fundamentals, has had coaches and/or specialized training, maybe even a degree in music. They can speak the language, and often times vocalists do more than sing. They spend their time perfecting their craft, then alot even learn keys to accompany their own singing, or guitar, or something like that. They take care of their instrument, do vocal exercises and warmups, give it needed rest, because they have have learned how to get the most from themselves.

Theres nothing wrong with being a singer, especially not a good one. Shoot I need some more for my choir, but a vocalist is a special treat. You are blessed to work with vocalists.

Now in regards to the thread title, Vocalists and singers communicate differently, you'll hear it in the lingo. But I have no problem with either telling me what they want. Unless you are a solo musician, then your job is to "play nicely with others" to take it back to school. If that means taking a suggestion here or there to accomplish the greater good, then so be it.

Now, nobody said be a punching bag. There are some crazy singers and vocalists out there who treat people like a 20-year old welcome mat. That aside, use tact, and diplomacy to work out differences. But dont let our own egos as musicians tell you that you dont need to ever take suggestion or criticism. Thats just stupid. You are not an island. Musicians are team players, we speak a language understood in every lanugage and culture throughout the world. Good music is a converstation, so there is give and take; solos and silence; a time to stand out, and a time to lay out.

If that doesnt work. Loose the singer, and go find a vocalist.

Very well said.  I almost hate to add anything to this....I said almost.

Okay, I too am going to sound in from the other perspective. I play guitar and I can definitely sympathize with other musicians and vocalists that have had a heck of a time getting on the same page with some organists. I have played with guys that sit down on the organ along with a full band including myself on guitar, a bass player, drummer and vocalists and not one of us knew what the heck he was playing.  Their "phat" chords were so 'fat' and the chord progressions were so random that it was nearly impossible for anybody else to join in.  However there was always some in the congregation that seem to really enjoy the solo performance. 

All I'm saying is that if there are others designated to play along or sing ALONG with you and they express some difficulty in doing that, take some effort to explore the situation.  If your exploration indicates that they are truly full of themselves then go about your business.  We should remember that the purpose of playing in church is to uplift the Body of Christ, not ourselves.

[gtrdave]

Forgive me for being blunt, but I've read an awful lot of "I, me and my" in this thread and not so much in the form of praise, worship and being a humble Christ-like servant.
And what's with dissing on the singers? I feel like I'm reading a thread on the Harmony Central forums...

First, we're playing in church to worship God because supposedly He's called us to do so and not to impress anyone with our immense musical abilities. If there are others in attendance then it's wise that we make an effort to worship in unity and in one accord and not be going off on our little solo-worship tangent. Maybe someone is blessed by it for a minute or 30 seconds, but eventually the perception is that you're off in your own little worship land and no one else is invited to come along.
That edifies WHO?

As far as singers and musicians, be very careful about your criticisms. I've known plenty of singers who did little more than just sing, but they were good singers and had quite a bit of musical intuition and the ability to know what sounds "right" in a song, even if they couldn't tell me specifically that what they wanted to hear was a Bbm7b5/E or whatever. A little humility in our communication will probably benefit us in the long run, even if the person being critical is acting anything but humble. That shouldn't matter. Either we're a minister of the Gospel or we're just a musician. If it's the latter, we should go play in the clubs and take our backward attitude out of the church.

If anyone comes to us with a criticism, the first thing we should do is listen and not judge it or them too fast. I know that we're musicians and therefore we tend to be extra sensitive and easily offended when it comes to others being critical of our personal form of "art", but as musicians we should KNOW how to listen well. Maybe asking the person to sing us their criticism would help us to better comprehend it...

[churchyreal]

Forgive me for being blunt, but I've read an awful lot of "I, me and my" in this thread and not so much in the form of praise, worship and being a humble Christ-like servant.And what's with dissing on the singers? I feel like I'm reading a thread on the Harmony Central forums...

First, we're playing in church to worship God because supposedly He's called us to do so and not to impress anyone with our immense musical abilities. If there are others in attendance then it's wise that we make an effort to worship in unity and in one accord and not be going off on our little solo-worship tangent. Maybe someone is blessed by it for a minute or 30 seconds, but eventually the perception is that you're off in your own little worship land and no one else is invited to come along.
That edifies WHO?

As far as singers and musicians, be very careful about your criticisms. I've known plenty of singers who did little more than just sing, but they were good singers and had quite a bit of musical intuition and the ability to know what sounds "right" in a song, even if they couldn't tell me specifically that what they wanted to hear was a Bbm7b5/E or whatever. A little humility in our communication will probably benefit us in the long run, even if the person being critical is acting anything but humble. That shouldn't matter. Either we're a minister of the Gospel or we're just a musician. If it's the latter, we should go play in the clubs and take our backward attitude out of the church.

If anyone comes to us with a criticism, the first thing we should do is listen and not judge it or them too fast. I know that we're musicians and therefore we tend to be extra sensitive and easily offended when it comes to others being critical of our personal form of "art", but as musicians we should KNOW how to listen well. Maybe asking the person to sing us their criticism would help us to better comprehend it...

Remember though that we are a very individualistic country....lol

But seriously I don't think this is about not being open to criticism i think this is about people not staying in their lane.

[LaRue1212]

Forgive me for being blunt, but I've read an awful lot of "I, me and my" in this thread and not so much in the form of praise, worship and being a humble Christ-like servant.
And what's with dissing on the singers? I feel like I'm reading a thread on the Harmony Central forums...

First, we're playing in church to worship God because supposedly He's called us to do so and not to impress anyone with our immense musical abilities. If there are others in attendance then it's wise that we make an effort to worship in unity and in one accord and not be going off on our little solo-worship tangent. Maybe someone is blessed by it for a minute or 30 seconds, but eventually the perception is that you're off in your own little worship land and no one else is invited to come along.
That edifies WHO?

As far as singers and musicians, be very careful about your criticisms. I've known plenty of singers who did little more than just sing, but they were good singers and had quite a bit of musical intuition and the ability to know what sounds "right" in a song, even if they couldn't tell me specifically that what they wanted to hear was a Bbm7b5/E or whatever. A little humility in our communication will probably benefit us in the long run, even if the person being critical is acting anything but humble. That shouldn't matter. Either we're a minister of the Gospel or we're just a musician. If it's the latter, we should go play in the clubs and take our backward attitude out of the church.

If anyone comes to us with a criticism, the first thing we should do is listen and not judge it or them too fast. I know that we're musicians and therefore we tend to be extra sensitive and easily offended when it comes to others being critical of our personal form of "art", but as musicians we should KNOW how to listen well. Maybe asking the person to sing us their criticism would help us to better comprehend it...

[sistagurl]

Forgive me for being blunt, but I've read an awful lot of "I, me and my" in this thread and not so much in the form of praise, worship and being a humble Christ-like servant.
And what's with dissing on the singers? I feel like I'm reading a thread on the Harmony Central forums...

First, we're playing in church to worship God because supposedly He's called us to do so and not to impress anyone with our immense musical abilities. If there are others in attendance then it's wise that we make an effort to worship in unity and in one accord and not be going off on our little solo-worship tangent. Maybe someone is blessed by it for a minute or 30 seconds, but eventually the perception is that you're off in your own little worship land and no one else is invited to come along.
That edifies WHO?

As far as singers and musicians, be very careful about your criticisms. I've known plenty of singers who did little more than just sing, but they were good singers and had quite a bit of musical intuition and the ability to know what sounds "right" in a song, even if they couldn't tell me specifically that what they wanted to hear was a Bbm7b5/E or whatever. A little humility in our communication will probably benefit us in the long run, even if the person being critical is acting anything but humble. That shouldn't matter. Either we're a minister of the Gospel or we're just a musician. If it's the latter, we should go play in the clubs and take our backward attitude out of the church.

If anyone comes to us with a criticism, the first thing we should do is listen and not judge it or them too fast. I know that we're musicians and therefore we tend to be extra sensitive and easily offended when it comes to others being critical of our personal form of "art", but as musicians we should KNOW how to listen well. Maybe asking the person to sing us their criticism would help us to better comprehend it...

YEAH!! That's what I'm talkin' bout....

and they were being very mean about singers...When I read all that "dissing"...I was like waaaaaat , ......then I was like huuuuuuuuh ........ I was like whateva !


I luuuuuv my musicians. They have been very patient, loyal, and easy to work with. They also play for our group and they put up with some stuff when we get together, lol.

[gtrdave]

Remember though that we are a very individualistic country....lol

But seriously I don't think this is about not being open to criticism i think this is about people not staying in their lane.

Yeah, but we should realize that music is just another form of artistic expression and, like all art, one need not be an artist to be a critic of the expression...for better or worse.
Even so, when we do stay in our own lane, our experience is not much different. If a guitar player comes up to offer me their criticisms, do I welcome them or do I first want to see their stage and studio credits before I entertain their offering?
It's like the old joke:
Q - how many guitarists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A - one...and all of the other guitarists are standing around with their arms crossed, saying "I could do it better".

[Incognegro]

I don't think this is about not being open to criticism i think this is about people not staying in their lane.

This.

Yeah, but we should realize that music is just another form of artistic expression and, like all art, one need not be an artist to be a critic of the expression...for better or worse.
Even so, when we do stay in our own lane, our experience is not much different. If a guitar player comes up to offer me their criticisms, do I welcome them or do I first want to see their stage and studio credits before I entertain their offering?
It's like the old joke:
Q - how many guitarists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A - one...and all of the other guitarists are standing around with their arms crossed, saying "I could do it better".

Your previous post had good points in it.  I agree with your point about singers especially.  I believe some went a tad too far.

However it IS important for us to operate in our respective areas of the body.

Your hands can't do what your feet can do, and shouldn't try to.

You can't drink coffee through your ears.

You can't see with your elbows.

If you don't know anything about music (and far too many people THINK they know about music), you can't tell me about my chords or the specifics of my playing...considering you don't really know what you're talking about anyway.   

In my example on the first page with the person who told me to "Play something the people will understand", the person had NO CLUE what they were talking about...but he THOUGHT he did.

A few weeks ago we were in a choir rehearsal.  An Elder in the church sat in and watched (he was waiting for a meeting).

We were practicing Total Praise.  I was playing the intro that was played in the Donne McClurkin version.

He stopped me and said "Why don't you just play two chords so they know when to come in". 

I tell him: "I'm playing the intro from the original song."

Him: "I'm saying, why don't you just play two chords so they can hear when to come in"

Me: "This is the original intro from the CD"

  

[gtrdave]

This.

A few weeks ago we were in a choir rehearsal.  An Elder in the church sat in and watched (he was waiting for a meeting).

We were practicing Total Praise.  I was playing the intro that was played in the Donne McClurkin version.

He stopped me and said "Why don't you just play two chords so they know when to come in". 

I tell him: "I'm playing the intro from the original song."

Him: "I'm saying, why don't you just play two chords so they can hear when to come in"

Me: "This is the original intro from the CD"[/size]

  

I can understand that, but maybe what the elder was trying to say was that "we're not all listening to the CD right now, we're listening to you". 
Sometimes it's ok for us to sacrifice the way that we think a song should be played in order to maintain unity in the body. Worship is still going to occur and God is still going to be praised. He's not sitting on the throne, saying "Hey? Wha?! That brutha played the wrong intro to that song!! I'ma strike him down right quick!"

[sjonathan02]

This thread is very revealing.

[Incognegro]

We were practicing Total Praise.  I was playing the intro that was played in the Donne McClurkin version.

He stopped me and said "Why don't you just play two chords so they know when to come in?" 

I tell him: "I'm playing the intro from the original song."

Him: "I'm saying, why don't you just play two chords so they can hear when to come in"

Me: "This is the original intro from the CD"

  

I can understand that, but maybe what the elder was trying to say was that "we're not all listening to the CD right now, we're listening to you". 

You're kidding right?

[Incognegro]

*Donnie McClurkin

[LaRue1212]

I can see it from both sides.

I hate when people try to tell me how to administrate. Half the time, I end up looking at them like   what??? You're not even making sense.   Because they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, have no experience with church administration and want to tell me how it was done at their last church, how they think it would work better, what the Lord revealed to them in a dream, or some other foolishness. I'm completely open to GOOD ideas that make sense, but I hate when people come up to me with stuff that doesn't even make sense, or is impossible or imprudent or inadvisable for the particular church... and like most church administrators, I can provide example after example after example of this happening. Not a week goes by that someone doesn't have a "better" idea for something we're doing... and these are usually people who (a) can't even run their own ministries, or (b) aren't even active in the church unless "active" is defined as telling others what to do.

On the other hand, just because someone isn't an administrator doesn't mean they don't have good ideas. Likewise, just because a person isn't a musician doesn't mean they don't have musical intuition or a musical ear. That's me. I couldn't use the correct vocabulary, but I know what I want to hear.  A lot of times, I know what sounds good/bad, and what would sound better. I just can't communicate it well because I'm not a musician. And RJ, I remember in PT rehearsal, we were really struggling with coming in to a particular song on time, and I asked the MD if he could give us a chord or two that would tell us when to come in.  It wasn't to question his expertise as a musician, it was because we couldn't tell when to come in and were wasting a lot of time trying to "feel" it. Bump all that. Just give me a chord, man. LOL

However, I'm not the one y'all are talking about because I usually keep it to myself since I'm not involved in music ministry at all.  

[betnich]

I think we often get offended when someone who is not a musician tries to correct us, using layman's, not musicians' terms. Like Mr. Brown on MEET THE BROWNS, sometimes it's hard to figure out what they mean.

Like one Pastor who told me not to play any Minor chords because they were 'depressing'...