Modulation

[Asahel]

Question(s) for all of you seasoned pros out there.

When you see a key signature, do you automatically/instantaneously KNOW what the sharps/flats are in that key sig?  I mean, have you worked to the point were you say, "oh, this is E-flat, so all Bs, Es and As are flat unless specified otherwise by a natural sign".

I'm working on some modulation exercises (going up one key, going down another, and combinations thereof) but I'm trying to move away from just pluggin in a finger pattern... I want to read the notes as I go along (sight reading) and I think that I need to just memorize all key sigs along with their notes so that I can call the notes on demand instantaneously.

Is this the right approach? (for those of you who read music; if you play by ear, that's all good and I'm not saying that's not a valid approach.  What my goal here is is to learn to read.)

Thanks!

[dhagler]

Question(s) for all of you seasoned pros out there.

When you see a key signature, do you automatically/instantaneously KNOW what the sharps/flats are in that key sig?  I mean, have you worked to the point were you say, "oh, this is E-flat, so all Bs, Es and As are flat unless specified otherwise by a natural sign".

I'm working on some modulation exercises (going up one key, going down another, and combinations thereof) but I'm trying to move away from just pluggin in a finger pattern... I want to read the notes as I go along (sight reading) and I think that I need to just memorize all key sigs along with their notes so that I can call the notes on demand instantaneously.

Is this the right approach? (for those of you who read music; if you play by ear, that's all good and I'm not saying that's not a valid approach.  What my goal here is is to learn to read.)

Thanks!

A piano-playing friend pointed out to me that the key of F has one flat (B-flat), the key of B-flat has two flats (B-flat and E-flat), and so on. Only later did I realize that the flats are added in a cycle of fourths).

The key of G has one sharp (F-sharp), the key of D has two sharps (C-sharp and F-sharp). The sharps are added in a cycle of fifts as you go from G to D to A to E.

Do I instantaneously know the sharps and flats for the various keys? I do now but it was a combination of recognizing patterns and knwowing my fretboard. I will admit that most of my playing is based on the scale patterns because it keeps me from running all over the fretboard. I play with a Jazz Ensemble and most of what we play is sight read, and we even play at church from sheet music or the hymnbook. But even then I try to apply numbering and progressions to the sheet music because it helps me understand the structure of the song. So I guess the short answer is being able to read music, understanding progressions, and being able to play by ear all compliment one another. Being able to apply more than one of them to a playing situation only helps you to accomplish your goals more quickly.

[Asahel]

the short answer is being able to read music, understanding progressions, and being able to play by ear all compliment one another. Being able to apply more than one of them to a playing situation only helps you to accomplish your goals more quickly.

Yep.  I'm getting my feet wet on standard progressions (for Jazz anyway) with the Jazz Theory book; that's step two.  As I ear-train and learn to recognize intervals, notes, etc I will be better equipped to "follow my ear" (step three).

But the question I'm asking is specific to sight reading, although I understand its (reading sheet music) applicability varies and that there might be other skills involved.

Hopefully as I plod along with my training I'll be able to put 2+2 together and arrive at the three corners of the triangle you described.  Wait, 2+2 is...

My approach to learning the bass may be slow, but I am a big believer in fundamentals and my hope is that all the dots will start connecting at some point.  Look at Shaq; as great as he is just think what he would have accomplished had he learned to shoot free throws.  OTOH, Tim Duncan isn't flashy, but he gets the job done, night in and night out.

[Quebass86]

 
Do I instantaneously know the sharps and flats for the various keys? I do now but it was a combination of recognizing patterns and knwowing my fretboard. I will admit that most of my playing is based on the scale patterns because it keeps me from running all over the fretboard. I play with a Jazz Ensemble and most of what we play is sight read, and we even play at church from sheet music or the hymnbook. But even then I try to apply numbering and progressions to the sheet music because it helps me understand the structure of the song. So I guess the short answer is being able to read music, understanding progressions, and being able to play by ear all compliment one another. Being able to apply more than one of them to a playing situation only helps you to accomplish your goals more quickly.
[/quote]

That is how I learned the differences (cycle of 4ths, etc.) When we play our minister of music will hold up his fingers, when I first started playing I didn't know what he was doing but he was telling us what key to play in if he was playing a song or some melody. 1 fiinger meant the key of F (1 flat) 3 fingers meant Eb, etc.

I learned how to read music early in life because I played another instrument growing up in school. It takes practicing it over and over and over again just like most things to get familiar and comfortable with it. If you get some shett music and there are 4 flats in the bass clef you know that it is an the key of Ab

[sbyrd1978]

I know the key signatures well because I've been playing music for most of my life. The circle of 4ths&5ths is a good way to learn the key signatures. as you travel from C to F to Bflat etc., you start with no flats in C and just add 1 flat every time you go up a 4th. (Tip: learn the flats in the order they appear in the key signature. they are written in 4ths. ex. Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb).

With sharps...starting in C (no sharps) and move in 5th intervals. C - G - D etc. add 1 sharp everytime you move a 5th. (learn the order that the sharps appear in the key sig. the key of G (1 sharp = F#). F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#. the cool way to learn the sharp's key sig. is to look at the last sharp in the key sig. and then go up a half step and thats what key you are in. Ex. if I have 2 sharps (in order they would be displayed F#,C#) a half step up from C# is D. D major would be my key signature. of course its also the key sig. for Bminor (the relative minor).

Thats just a brief way to explain one way of simplifying the learning process.

P.S. I didn't include key sig. for Fb or C# because Fb would simply be an enharmonic spelling for EMajor, which is much easier to read. C#Major will usually be composed as Db Major (enharmonic spelling which is easier to read).

[BassbyGrace]

Ditto to QueBass.  Since I started in an orchestra then moved to band, Ive had to read ALOT of music.  I must say that the difference comes in the mechanics of the instrument.  I can read all day tuba, but my bass reading is quite slower. 

Aside from learning the circle of 5th's/4ths, I advise you to just start reading tunes and occaisionally adding an accidental.  Don't put too much on yourself at once.  Read some charts/songs in say F, then next week do some in Bb, then so on.  That helps you gradually get comfortable to seeing more accidentals.  After a while Gb will look like nothing.

[floaded27]

unfortunately, in the real world sight reading and playing with other musicians often conflict in this sense. The root of the problem: enharmonics.

When a key signature is designated as a sharp key, all the notes are sharp that need to be. the same case as in flat keys.
For example: key of F#. notes are F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E# because you need 1 of each note, and since its a sharp key they must be sharped.
Which may be cool if strictly sight reading, but what musician say "we're in the key of F# and then mentions an E#" ? Most likely he/she will call it F. Now this one may probably not get u confused, but most musicians i've ever played with always calls G# => Ab, A# => Bb, and D# => Eb regardless of what key we're playing in. In my playing circles the black keys are ALWAYS C#, Eb, F#, Ab, Bb no matter what key you are in, and that totally clashes with the standard music theory notation.

What i do is (totally necessary playing keys) is learn what notes are in the key as well as their associated interval rather than the sharps and flats. I guess that would help me that if i saw a note without a natural sign and that natural note isnt in the key, then it has to be sharp or flat depending on the key.

[malthumb]

Little tricks I learned early on to help identify key sigs at a glance.
Flat Keys / 5 string bass:
Put your finger on the first fret of the B-string.  That is "C".  No flats or sharps.
Look at the Key sig on the music. 
Move your finger up a string, staying on 1st fret, for every flat you see.
For example, if you saw 4 flats, you would move your finger up 4 strings and you'd be at Ab on the G string
4 flats is the signature for Ab.

Flat Keys / 4 string bass:
Works the same way, but you have to "assume" C


Sharp Keys for a 4 or 5 string bass
Count the number of sharps in the key signature
Play your strings open from high to low for each sharp.
1 sharp, you play G string open.  Key is G#
4 sharps, you play E string open, key is E#

[phatstrings]

Little tricks I learned early on to help identify key sigs at a glance.
Flat Keys / 5 string bass:
Put your finger on the first fret of the B-string.  That is "C".  No flats or sharps.
Look at the Key sig on the music. 
Move your finger up a string, staying on 1st fret, for every flat you see.
For example, if you saw 4 flats, you would move your finger up 4 strings and you'd be at Ab on the G string
4 flats is the signature for Ab.

Flat Keys / 4 string bass:
Works the same way, but you have to "assume" C


Sharp Keys for a 4 or 5 string bass
Count the number of sharps in the key signature
Play your strings open from high to low for each sharp.
1 sharp, you play G string open.  Key is G#
4 sharps, you play E string open, key is E#

This is nice even though i like not to 'think too much' when playing. My reading is rather slow so this is a handy trick.Thanks

[Fingers!]

Little tricks I learned early on to help identify key sigs at a glance.
Flat Keys / 5 string bass:
Put your finger on the first fret of the B-string.  That is "C".  No flats or sharps.
Look at the Key sig on the music. 
Move your finger up a string, staying on 1st fret, for every flat you see.
For example, if you saw 4 flats, you would move your finger up 4 strings and you'd be at Ab on the G string
4 flats is the signature for Ab.

Flat Keys / 4 string bass:
Works the same way, but you have to "assume" C


Sharp Keys for a 4 or 5 string bass
Count the number of sharps in the key signature
Play your strings open from high to low for each sharp.
1 sharp, you play G string open.  Key is G#
4 sharps, you play E string open, key is E#

That is totally ridiculous...I better hurry up and print this one.

[Asahel]

Hey folks, thanks much for your tips!

I got plenty of work to do so I better git'er done!

The 5th of this month marked ten months since I first laid hands on a bass.  I feel that I have learned much, but the more I learn the more I realize there's much much more for me to learn.  I continue to "practice to my weaknesses" as advised in the Jazz Theory Book.  BTW, I'm also learning to read treble cleff and to play some keys ('cause the JTB says I should know at least a little bit).  I understand it's not a race so I have the rest of my life to learn, God permitting.  One of the reasons I picked up the bass was so that I could hang out "music-wise" with my oldest son.

Speaking of which, we just received notice of admission from the University of North Florida; my oldest kid is (with the Lord's favor) going there to study music starting this fall.  He's on LGM; his "handle" is "crazyguitardude"  (He's seventeen y.o. and homeschooled; my wife and I are so blessed to have him!) 

Our Lord Jesus be praised!

Asahel

[BassbyGrace]

Good stuff Malthumb.  Another way for flats is after the key of F (one flat) is to look at the last flat.  The flat before that is the key.  For ex.  if you see 5 flats, that would be Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb.  Gb is the last flat so the flat before that is Db.  Db is the key!  Another one:  Eb has 3 flats, Bb-Eb-Ab.  Ab is last so the flat before that is Eb. 

The great thing about music, is there are 1,000 diff roads to get to the same place. 

[phbrown]

The great thing about music, is there are 1,000 diff roads to get to the same place. 

Or the bad thing

[Fingers!]

Little tricks I learned early on to help identify key sigs at a glance.
Flat Keys / 5 string bass:
Put your finger on the first fret of the B-string.  That is "C".  No flats or sharps.
Look at the Key sig on the music. 
Move your finger up a string, staying on 1st fret, for every flat you see.
For example, if you saw 4 flats, you would move your finger up 4 strings and you'd be at Ab on the G string
4 flats is the signature for Ab.

Flat Keys / 4 string bass:
Works the same way, but you have to "assume" C


Sharp Keys for a 4 or 5 string bass
Count the number of sharps in the key signature
Play your strings open from high to low for each sharp.
1 sharp, you play G string open.  Key is G#
4 sharps, you play E string open, key is E#

I noticed that that word, tricks, is plural.  What other little tricks do you have...

[malthumb]

I noticed that that word, tricks, is plural.  What other little tricks do you have...

Well.....finding flat keys was one, and finding sharp keys was the other

[Fingers!]

Little tricks I learned early on to help identify key sigs at a glance.
Flat Keys / 5 string bass:
Put your finger on the first fret of the B-string.  That is "C".  No flats or sharps.
Look at the Key sig on the music. 
Move your finger up a string, staying on 1st fret, for every flat you see.
For example, if you saw 4 flats, you would move your finger up 4 strings and you'd be at Ab on the G string
4 flats is the signature for Ab.

Flat Keys / 4 string bass:
Works the same way, but you have to "assume" C


Sharp Keys for a 4 or 5 string bass
Count the number of sharps in the key signature
Play your strings open from high to low for each sharp.
1 sharp, you play G string open.  Key is G#
4 sharps, you play E string open, key is E#

What about 5 sharps?

[malthumb]

What about 5 sharps?

B string is played open.....5 sharps = key of B

Which brings up a point....I made a mistake in my original post (and y'all didn't catch it) 

1 sharp, you play the G string open, key is G, not G#
4 sharps, you play the E string open, key is E, not E#

Peace,
James

[Fingers!]

B string is played open.....5 sharps = key of B

This system seems too easy...

[Fingers!]

Little tricks I learned early on to help identify key sigs at a glance.
Flat Keys / 5 string bass:
Put your finger on the first fret of the B-string.  That is "C".  No flats or sharps.
Look at the Key sig on the music. 
Move your finger up a string, staying on 1st fret, for every flat you see.
For example, if you saw 4 flats, you would move your finger up 4 strings and you'd be at Ab on the G string
4 flats is the signature for Ab.

Flat Keys / 4 string bass:
Works the same way, but you have to "assume" C


Sharp Keys for a 4 or 5 string bass
Count the number of sharps in the key signature
Play your strings open from high to low for each sharp.
1 sharp, you play G string open.  Key is G#
4 sharps, you play E string open, key is E#

I know that it’s been quite a while for this thread… but, I was having an issue with it.  I ALWAYS go back to this particular post and I noticed that it works, then it doesn’t.  I’ve been struggling with this since way back when.  I could never get this to totally cash out.  So I finally re-read the responses and I ran into this, something I missed before - cash money:

B string is played open.....5 sharps = key of B

Which brings up a point....I made a mistake in my original post (and y'all didn't catch it) 

1 sharp, you play the G string open, key is G, not G#
4 sharps, you play the E string open, key is E, not E#

Peace,
James

I felt that I HAVE to bring this thread back and give my appreciation to Malthumb.  A while ago the choir leader, a music teacher, nailed me during a conversation, gave me an on-the-spot pop quiz and this was in there:  What key is 3 flats? 2 flats? 4 flats? 1 flat?  I was able to answer the questions. 
Thanks again, Man!