Need some advice - church matter

[churchyreal]

Dang, young man... you are just so doggone wise, it blows my mind sometimes. Seriously.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I couldn't get it into words.

TJ, you're there every week. You know how far GKA has come in the past year. When I got there (just a couple of months before you), they were walking into the pulpit to read announcements barefoot. There were no ushers. There was constant walking in and out throughout the entire service. No one stood up for P&W. They would talk to each other, holding conversations one with the mic, one in the congregation... it was crazy. But that's how a lot of start-up churches are. They get this "anything goes" mentality because it's just the family, so it's okay.

In the past year, all of that has changed, and we're looking more like a church should. But it didn't come without some sweat and tears. And I'm really concerned about becoming the type of church that just makes up titles on the fly. That makes me nervous because I've seen that in churches before, and I know what it turns into. Next thing you know, 75% of the church is an Elder or Minister, and everyone has a title, and hungry souls can't fit into the sanctuary because all the egos leave no room.

I dunno. Knowing me as well as I know myself, there's a good chance I'm just being unreasonable and inflexible... and taking things too seriously and being too rigid. I tend to get pretty uptight when it comes to excellence and order in the church... and sometimes I can take it too far, I guess.

I just wanna be right. And I want my church to be right.

Oh, and no you're not in the 99%... well, on second thought, I really don't know. I've never seen any country behaviors from you, but it's probably easy to hide the country behind the keys.... lol.

That's out of order or demonstrating a lack of excellence? 

[LaylaMonroe]

That's out of order or demonstrating a lack of excellence? 

It's both.  Anything out of order demonstrates a lack of excellence (but of course, the reverse isn't always true).

Coincidentally, yesterday there were a couple of bare feet standing at the altar during altar call  (and in various other places throughout the service) LOL. I'm really tripping out the more I think about it because this will be the first time in my entire career that I will have to include in a Leadership Manual a specific clause indicating that all clergy and leaders are required to wear shoes at all times.  *straightface* Seriously, though. 

And I did have an update on this but I didn't want to pull the thread back up.  Friday evening, my pastor called me to discuss a few things and he asked me about the schedule.  I told him what I thought of it and by the time I got to the point about Jane Doe's title, before I could even finish my sentence, he exclaimed, "HER TITLE IS MINISTER!! Minister! That's what's on her license."  So I do thank God for stepping in.  He also agreed with me on all the other issues I had raised.  I'm grateful.  It may seem like a small thing (and in the grand scheme of things, it probably IS), but I'm relieved nonetheless.  It can be really frustrating to want things to be done well, and have excellence within your reach but still be unable to achieve it because of other people's..... stuff.

[churchyreal]

It's both.  Anything out of order demonstrates a lack of excellence (but of course, the reverse isn't always true).

Coincidentally, yesterday there were a couple of bare feet standing at the altar during altar call  (and in various other places throughout the service) LOL. I'm really tripping out the more I think about it because this will be the first time in my entire career that I will have to include in a Leadership Manual a specific clause indicating that all clergy and leaders are required to wear shoes at all times.  *straightface* Seriously, though. 
And I did have an update on this but I didn't want to pull the thread back up.  Friday evening, my pastor called me to discuss a few things and he asked me about the schedule.  I told him what I thought of it and by the time I got to the point about Jane Doe's title, before I could even finish my sentence, he exclaimed, "HER TITLE IS MINISTER!! Minister! That's what's on her license."  So I do thank God for stepping in.  He also agreed with me on all the other issues I had raised.  I'm grateful.  It may seem like a small thing (and in the grand scheme of things, it probably IS), but I'm relieved nonetheless.  It can be really frustrating to want things to be done well, and have excellence within your reach but still be unable to achieve it because of other people's..... stuff.

Haha! I really did not know that leadership walking around barefoot was an issue of excellence.  I always thought it was just people being comfortable in church like a person who walks barefoot during the offering or someone who dances with their shoes off. One of our ministers use to preach barefoot everytime she got up there.

I mean really though I've always viewed it as "being comfortable"....lol! Maybe it's a country churh thing.....haha! 

[nessalynn77]

@Nessa, This is probably just semantics/hair-splitting, because I think I get the bottom line to what you're saying, but I think for the most part the titles in the bible WERE the same as what we use today, we just use them differently. So what I'm saying is the titles were the same, the application is different. I have yet to see examples of apostles being called Apostle So-and-So or prophets being called Prophet Whoever...

But the prophets, missionaries, apostles, pastors, bishops, evangelists, etc. DID exist.

Is that the same as what you're saying?

No, I'm saying titles in the bible were nowhere near what they are today in the sense of the importance placed on them, the widespread use of them, etc.

[nessalynn77]

Haha! I really did not know that leadership walking around barefoot was an issue of excellence.  I always thought it was just people being comfortable in church like a person who walks barefoot during the offering or someone who dances with their shoes off. One of our ministers use to preach barefoot everytime she got up there.

I mean really though I've always viewed it as "being comfortable"....lol! Maybe it's a country churh thing.....haha! 

No, I'm not country and it happens all the time in our church.  I never saw it as an issue, either.  Like you said, people kick off their shoes when they dance... once we had a brother whose custom it was to remove his shoes when he entered the sanctuary... *shrug*  As long as your feet are not demonstrating poor hygiene and upkeep, and your hosiery is clean and in good repair, I really wouldn't think any less of you. 

[churchyreal]

I agree Ness!

[LaylaMonroe]

No, I'm saying titles in the bible were nowhere near what they are today in the sense of the importance placed on them, the widespread use of them, etc.

Ohhh. Yeah, I agree with that, too.

No, I'm not country and it happens all the time in our church.  I never saw it as an issue, either.  Like you said, people kick off their shoes when they dance... once we had a brother whose custom it was to remove his shoes when he entered the sanctuary... *shrug*  As long as your feet are not demonstrating poor hygiene and upkeep, and your hosiery is clean and in good repair, I really wouldn't think any less of you. 

(For the record, I don't think I called the examples I listed "country" although I do believe it IS country... and extremely tacky and unladylike). 

Kicking off your shoes to dance or because it's a cultural custom is one thing.

Going into the pulpit to read announcements barefoot, or coming to the altar to minister to souls barefoot, or ushering, nursing, singing on the praise team (with open view) barefoot... all tacky and country, IMO. I've just never in my life seen that in New York... and I've been to a gazillion churches in NY. I've never seen it in Atlanta either, from what I recall.

I'm not talking about the occasional issue where your foot swells and you have to take your shoe off... or a broken ankle... or a 6 hour service marathon and just about everyone comes out of their shoes (which I still don't understand)... I'm talking about when your habit is to take your shoes off and serve in ministry with no shoes on. That, to me, is very tacky and country. I guess the key word is TO ME.

Furthermore, as a lady who enjoys wearing heels as high as I can find them, I do not understand why anyone who is active in ministry would regularly buy shoes that they cannot wear for 2 hours at a time. If they hurt your feet, why buy them? If you truly cannot keep your shoes on for a 2-2.5 hour service, and you don't have any special issues, why on earth are you continuing to buy those shoes? May I recommend Aerosoles or Easy Spirit or Nine West Flex?

[churchyreal]

(For the record, I don't think I called the examples I listed "country" although I do believe it IS country... and extremely tacky and unladylike). 

Kicking off your shoes to dance or because it's a cultural custom is one thing.

Going into the pulpit to read announcements barefoot, or coming to the altar to minister to souls barefoot, or ushering, nursing, singing on the praise team (with open view) barefoot... all tacky and country, IMO. I've just never in my life seen that in New York... and I've been to a gazillion churches in NY. I've never seen it in Atlanta either, from what I recall.

I'm not talking about the occasional issue where your foot swells and you have to take your shoe off... or a broken ankle... or a 6 hour service marathon and just about everyone comes out of their shoes (which I still don't understand)... I'm talking about when your habit is to take your shoes off and serve in ministry with no shoes on. That, to me, is very tacky and country. I guess the key word is TO ME.

Furthermore, as a lady who enjoys wearing heels as high as I can find them, I do not understand why anyone who is active in ministry would regularly buy shoes that they cannot wear for 2 hours at a time. If they hurt your feet, why buy them? If you truly cannot keep your shoes on for a 2-2.5 hour service, and you don't have any special issues, why on earth are you continuing to buy those shoes? May I recommend Aerosoles or Easy Spirit or Nine West Flex?

lol yes! I mean it seemed like all the ladies were kicking off their shoes on easter because all the ladies and their momma wear their easter outfits so they wear high heels and be going to bathroom with shoes off and everything....lol! That would be funny to see someone go to do announcements barefoot. Now at practice one of our praise team members sung with her shoes off but never on Sunday.

For some reason this conversation really interest me and I needed the laugh.....lol! 

[LaylaMonroe]

lol yes! I mean it seemed like all the ladies were kicking off their shoes on easter because all the ladies and their momma wear their easter outfits so they wear high heels and be going to bathroom with shoes off and everything....lol! That would be funny to see someone go to do announcements barefoot. Now at practice one of our praise team members sung with her shoes off but never on Sunday.

For some reason this conversation really interest me and I needed the laugh.....lol! 

Yeah, I can't get with walking down the aisle to go to the restroom with no shoes on. I can't even get with giving offering or most anything else with no shoes on. I just don't get it. Why buy and and put on shoes that you can't actually WEAR? You're just trying to be cute, and that's dumb.  And why walk around if your feet hurt? Sit still and wait for benediction. Please ma'am, thank you ma'am.

For the record, although I don't like it, I wouldn't have a problem with lay members going barefoot... wouldn't say a word about it. If you're not embarrassed or whatever, then go for what you know. But if you are a leader, the standards are a little higher and certain things are just unacceptable.

[churchyreal]

Yeah, I can't get with walking down the aisle to go to the restroom with no shoes on. I can't even get with giving offering or most anything else with no shoes on. I just don't get it. Why buy and and put on shoes that you can't actually WEAR? You're just trying to be cute, and that's dumb.  And why walk around if your feet hurt? Sit still and wait for benediction. Please ma'am, thank you ma'am.

For the record, although I don't like it, I wouldn't have a problem with lay members going barefoot... wouldn't say a word about it. If you're not embarrassed or whatever, then go for what you know. But if you are a leader, the standards are a little higher and certain things are just unacceptable.

I guess it's a "to each it's own" type of thing 

But unfortunately I agree with what's in bold. It is what it is!

[Steelpulz]

I think they are denigrating her because she is female. She is, first of all, a minister. Is it possible that they do not want to call her a minister for that reason? Before we earned/bought/were appointed any other titles, we were all ministers of reconciliation after we were saved. Do they call any others who teach within the church context "Teacher So and So"? Probably not.

[LaylaMonroe]

Nah that's not the case at my church. We have male and female clergy and our most highly-regarded Elder is a woman.

[JustBritt]

Oh... I got nervous for a sec. Now that you expounded on the bare-feet thing doing ministry I understand. Now that I think about it, I've never seen my Bishop or Co-Pastor without their shoes. I know at my church some people will take their shoes off in the congregation. And then put them back on if their going to the altar or bathroom or whatever. Then there are some who just walk without them. *LaRueshrug* But I can understand wearing shoes while ministering or doing announcements or whenever you're standing before the congregation.

[malthumb]

.....The elder's stance pertained to what s/he believes in, not what the Pastor says or what our Bishop says. It is what s/he believes. I really am not interested in what any individuals believe when it comes to the administration, function, ministry or image of my church. I want to know what God says and what the Pastor believes. And that's it (for me).

The bold part is what sealed it for me.  At first when I read your original post, I was thinking that the issue might be with Jane being given the same title that was bestowed onto Jesus and that maybe it might be a back-handed jab.  Then as I read further and realized that Jane is an ordained minister, I thought that maybe this was a way to not give her the respect that was due her.  I think that the real issue is a question of who's will be served.  As much as I enjoy being in a denomination that places the balance of power with a body of elders, I do take issue when individual elders attempt to place themselves in a position of being THE decision-maker / spokesperson for the church.

You are in the right on this one.

[churchyreal]

LaRueshrug....ugghh...lol!

[B3Wannabe]

@Nessa, This is probably just semantics/hair-splitting, because I think I get the bottom line to what you're saying, but I think for the most part the titles in the bible WERE the same as what we use today, we just use them differently. So what I'm saying is the titles were the same, the application is different. I have yet to see examples of apostles being called Apostle So-and-So or prophets being called Prophet Whoever...

But the prophets, missionaries, apostles, pastors, bishops, evangelists, etc. DID exist.

Is that the same as what you're saying?

I've seen this before. I don't see any problem with it, nor the "Teacher" title. I, personally, think that "minister" is a generic "title", and can be applied to almost every Christian.

[churchyreal]

I've seen this before. I don't see any problem with it, nor the "Teacher" title. I, personally, think that "minister" is a generic "title", and can be applied to almost every Christian.

This