I am so SICK of denomination!!!!

[Arkhams Finest]

Are you REALLY pentecostal, Mr RJ? If you were , then re-type all what you said up there...in tongues.

But yeah I have to say that, from my observation, more and more pentecostal churches are adopting ritualistic worship and embracing orthodoxy.

You may be NOTICING more and more Pentecostal churches that are stuck in the past.  I'm a Pentecostal.  We fellowship with many Pentecostal churches.  We're not going from freedom to bondage.

Oh, and LOL @ 're-type it in tongues'.   

Here are your tongues:

















































 

[fmason3]

That's not enough of a justification for me in regards to the pros of having denominations. 

I get what you're saying and agree with you on many points but that's not enough to convince me that denominations are necessary.

Convincing you was not my goal.  Many denominations serve very little purpose other than, "I couldn't be the man at the top, so I pulled out and started my own."  I mean how many non-denominational christian churches started out Baptist (or something else) then grew....then ol' boy pulled out, dropped the denominational part of the churches name...added international or something...and now has like other churches under him. SMH

I wouldn't mind so much if denominations would just stop holding the monopoly on salvation.

I agree.  No one denomination (or lack of) has a monopoly on salvation even though one church made a lot of money claiming to have the keys to the kingdom back in the dark/middle ages. 

I work with a lot of SDA folk who truly believe that the rest of us are committing some mortal sin by not going to church on Saturdays. That Saturday/Sabbath thing is such a big deal for them and they can't seem to go past that. its like its some kind of necessary requirement for salvation or something.

I don't believe the sin is so much in not going to church on Saturday.  The commandment does not say "Remember the Sabbath day to go to church."  But rather, Ex. 20:8 says "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."  Not make it holy, but to KEEP it holy.  God made it holy at the end of creation week (Gen. 2:3).  Our job is to engage in the holiness.  Sadly, few people keep the Sabbath holy.  Some people by ignorance and others by blatant neglect. 

The bible does say that the Sabbath school be a "holy convocation" (Lev. 23:3) so the Sabbath was the main go-to-church day throughout the bible. (Luke 4:16, Acts 13:14, 13:42,44, 17:2, 18:4).  Did they have "church" on other days outside of the Sabbath?  Of course! Read Leviticus 23.  All of the feast/holy days (passover, day of atonement, etc...) were "church days."  Even Paul preached one Saturday night into Sunday morning. (Acts 20:7-11)  But note, Paul's meeting was not a holy convocation day.  He was merely preaching to them because he was getting ready to leave in the morning.

[Arkhams Finest]

I don't believe the sin is so much in not going to church on Saturday.  The commandment does not say "Remember the Sabbath day to go to church."  But rather, Ex. 20:8 says "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."  Not make it holy, but to KEEP it holy.  God made it holy at the end of creation week (Gen. 2:3).  Our job is to engage in the holiness.  Sadly, few people keep the Sabbath holy.  Some people by ignorance and others by blatant neglect. 

Or neither.

The observance of a Sabbath Day is not NECESSARY for salvation under the New Covenant.  It is not a sin. 

Can provide scriptures.

[churchyreal]

Convincing you was not my goal.  Many denominations serve very little purpose other than, "I couldn't be the man at the top, so I pulled out and started my own."  I mean how many non-denominational christian churches started out Baptist (or something else) then grew....then ol' boy pulled out, dropped the denominational part of the churches name...added international or something...and now has like other churches under him. SMH

I know I know. I was just saying. 

[lordluvr]

Here are your tongues:
 

[docjohn]

Adding to what CHRIST has done;JESUS Plus as well as taking Away from what HE has Done is the equation for a Cult!

Paul speaks of this clearly: take No mind of sabbaths,new moons,feasts,etc..ALL that is required is (1) repent of/confess sin  (2) walk out your salvation DAILY;continued Inward presence of JESUS by way of HIS HOLY SPIRIT;which is the "confession".HIS SPIRIT is bigger than the law,HE will lead you into All truth.1 JOHN 2:27.

Churches,denominations,"leaders" some with good/some with bad intentions-try to control folks actions Outwardly;while the REAL struggle AND Victory is Inwardly.

Following the HOLY SPIRIT's leadership is what we need,that is "Liberty" spoken of in GALATIANs.Law kills;WORD/GRACE?SPIRIT Gives LIFE(CHRIST).always-all the time.

[churchyreal]

Adding to what CHRIST has done;JESUS Plus as well as taking Away from what HE has Done is the equation for a Cult!

Paul speaks of this clearly: take No mind of sabbaths,new moons,feasts,etc..ALL that is required is (1) repent of/confess sin  (2) walk out your salvation DAILY;continued Inward presence of JESUS by way of HIS HOLY SPIRIT;which is the "confession".HIS SPIRIT is bigger than the law,HE will lead you into All truth.1 JOHN 2:27.

Churches,denominations,"leaders" some with good/some with bad intentions-try to control folks actions Outwardly;while the REAL struggle AND Victory is Inwardly.

Following the HOLY SPIRIT's leadership is what we need,that is "Liberty" spoken of in GALATIANs.Law kills;WORD/GRACE?SPIRIT Gives LIFE(CHRIST).always-all the time.

www.wayofthemaster.com..............LOL!!!! 

[fmason3]

Or neither.

The observance of a Sabbath Day is not NECESSARY for salvation under the New Covenant.  It is not a sin. 

Can provide scriptures.

I agree, observance is not necessary for salvation under either covenant.  Nor is being faithful to your spouse or being honest or not worshipping idols or any other of the 10 commandments.  Salvation is not earned.  It is a free gift.

[jeremyr]

Or neither.

The observance of a Sabbath Day is not NECESSARY for salvation under the New Covenant.  It is not a sin. 

Can provide scriptures.

Do you know what the New Covenant is?

Please know that you need to know and understand the differences between CEREMONIAL SABBATHS and the 7th day Sabbath are before you can try to do away with it.

if you're wondering what are ceremonail sabbaths they can ALL be found in Leviticus 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+23&version=NIV).

After you read that you'll see that these are laws that MOSES wrote (not God, who wrote his law with his own fingertip) which were nailed to the cross.  These Ceremonial Sabbaths didn't always fall on the 7th day of the week, just like Christmas doesn't always fall on a Sunday.  It was a holiday, not Gods Sanctified day.

 With those being known you will see that the scripture that you more than are going to quote (Colossians 2:16, Galatians 4:10 and Romans 14:5) have nothing to do with the 7th Day sabbath

According to what you just said it is then OK for me to KNOWINGLY Lie, Steal, kill, and commit adultery, and take the Lords name in vein or are those left out of thew new Covenant?

[Arkhams Finest]

I agree, observance is not necessary for salvation under either covenant.  Nor is being faithful to your spouse or being honest or not worshipping idols or any other of the 10 commandments.  Salvation is not earned.  It is a free gift.

We are not under the law, and are free from observing a Sabbath day.

Do you know what the New Covenant is?

Please know that you need to know and understand the differences between CEREMONIAL SABBATHS and the 7th day Sabbath are before you can try to do away with it.  With those being known you will see that the scripture that you more than are going to quote (Colossians 2:16, Galatians 4:10 and Romans 14:5) have nothing to do with the 7th Day sabbath

According to what you just said it is then OK for me to KNOWINGLY Lie, Steal, kill, and commit adultery, and take the Lords name in vein or are those left out of thew new Covenant?

Portion in Blue:

First of all you get +10 points for listing some of those scriptures BEFORE I do.  That's some good thinkin!!!

...Unfortunately you're penalized -11 points for trying to separate 'Ceremonial' sabbaths and '7th day Sabbath', though the scriptures you mentioned made no separation between the two.

So now you're in the hole for a point. 

I know these rules are tough, but hang in there.   


Portion in Red:

All those things ARE in the New Covenant:

Romans 13

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

[churchyreal]

I don't like the direction this thread is going.

[jeremyr]

We are not under the law, and are free from observing a Sabbath day.


...Unfortunately you're penalized -11 points for trying to separate 'Ceremonial' sabbaths and '7th day Sabbath', though the scriptures you mentioned made no separation between the two.

Since you want to play the point game *SIGH* I will have to deduct 50 points for not reading it thoroughly.

" 4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

 5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. "

The fourteenth day of the first month at even certainly is NOT the 7th day of the week all the time.

Passover is a Ceremonial Sabbath.  Don't believe so, wait till passover happens and ask the Jews why they all attend the Synagogue, because it's the sabbath.  They shut down their jobs, they don't go in to work, they keep these ceremonial Sabbaths. They did it when Jesus was around and they do it now. And all of those ceremonial Sabbaths are found in Leviticus 23.

Please note that word sabbath means "to cease".

So as far as trying to say they aren't...shame on you.

All those things ARE in the New Covenant:

Romans 13

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

What amazes me here is that you once again have missed the mark.

First of all there is NOTHING in this entire chapter that even notates that this is a new covenant, not to mention that PAUL could NEVER have any authority to changes God's word.  He is the Lord thy God and he Changeth NOT.  Jesus says in Matthew 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

First a covenant between God and man must come from God himself.  God showed us this when he PERSONALLY wrote the the 10 commandments on stone and gave them to moses.

The only time God said he makes a new covenant is when the Israelites LOST the 10 commandments, so he said I will make a new covenant with you and put it on your hearts.

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

They lost it, so God had to write it on their hearts for them to remember.  A deep impression.

Now if you read this entire chapter and even the 2 around them you will see that Paul is teaching the Romans that the ultimate Goal of Gods law is LOVE, for God IS love, so therefore he reminds them of their duty to their fellow man, however what you have missed is that the first 4 commands are not towards men, but towards GOD.  This is evident is Mark 12:17 where Jesus tells us to Render unto Caesar (MAN), that which is due unto him (the last 6 commandments), but Render unto God (the first four commandments) that which is due to him.

If that doesn't work for you then you just need to follow Jesus' example.  Jesus kept the Sabbath, Jesus Loved his fellow man, therefore he kept his own word by rendering unto Caesar that which is his and unto God that which is is.

This will be my last post on this though.  I believe you need to pray that the spirit leads you and you actually read the text provided by myself and everyone else and do a thorough study on it.  Don't take my word for it. the Bible states it all.

[phbrown]

I don't like the direction this thread is going.

LOL!

You know sometimes to me denominations are like cities. You know?

I mean they way people live in Brooklyn is very different from how I live in the midwest.

Just as the way some denominations are different from others.


maybe the op is just in the wrong city? or in the wrong part of town?

[fmason3]

Portion in Red:

All those things ARE in the New Covenant:

Romans 13

9 For the commandments, ?You shall not commit adultery,? ?You shall not murder,? ?You shall not steal,? ?You shall not bear false witness,?[a] ?You shall not covet,? and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, ?You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

Rom. 13:8-10 is man's relationship to his fellow man.  That's why Paul only lists the last five commandments.  I'm not sure why the 5th commandment is omitted here.  But commandments 1-4 are man's relationship to God and the last 6 are man's relationship with his fellow man.  Paul is saying for the commandments that he lists, they are summed up as saying "love your neighbor as yourself"  Jesus summarized the ten commandments in Matt. 22.  The first four are summarized in Matt. 22:37 and the last six in Matt. 22:39.  But Jesus was quoting the O.T. when he said that.  (Deut. 6:5 and Lev. 19:18)

I would hope that Paul's omission of the first 5 commandments would not disqualify them from having a place in the new covenant.  I don't think that's the case.  Most people would just say that the only commandment not included in the new commandment is the 4th.  And I think the notion behind it is because people feel there is no clear-cut express "you guys need to keep keeping the Sabbath" command in the N.T. 

Furthermore, if Jesus were going to remove the Sabbath from the covenant, He would have had to do so before he died. (Heb. 9:15-17, Gal. 3:15) Because after one of the parties dies, the covenant can't be changed.  Just like a will.  My parents can make a will now for me and my sister to split stuff after they die.  We can talk about it, go back to the lawyer, have some stuff changed, and sign/notary again.  But after they die, we can't make any changes.  We have to accept it as is.

[jeremyr]

I don't like the direction this thread is going.

it goes to show why there are denominations though. 

[churchyreal]

LOL yep!

[docjohn]

We all have AND will continue to sin;it's the nature of the flesh.The ATTONEMENT of CHRIST's BLOOD;covers us from the instant of "salvation" until the rapture or death.While we are in this flesh, JESUS constantly provides the covering over us as HIS bride( as Paul pictures the husband/wife picture,weaker vessel et.al).John speaks about IF we confess our sins- HE is faithful to forgive us.

Think of it -the same as the blood was applied over the door yearly at Passover under observance of the Old Testament has been replaced and superceeded by HIS sacrifice ,HIS BLOOD applied over the doorway of our heart.This is the NEW and Better covenant-once and for all,after which HE sat down at the right hand of FATHER.

We have NO license to commit  sin just because we are saved,it is an abomination,a travesty of LORD's grace.HIS grace provides a way out of sin and acceptance before GOD.

HEBREWS,JOHN,GALATIONS ROMANS-same theme over and over-expounded for clarity-which cannot be seperated;it IS one entity.WORD-JESUS CHRIST is to be rightly divided (understood)since IT (WORD) is INseperable.

[jeremyr]

LOL yep!

so here's a question for you. I see in your profile you're baptist, so maybe you can answer this for me. What is the difference between all the different baptists? I play for a MBC on Sundays and was getting calls to play at a Primitive Baptist Church before the pastor left to start his own church (go figure..lol).  Now from what I hear they Primitive observed communion INCLUDING feet washing, whereas the MBC folks really don't see it as wrong , but just don't do it (at least at the churches I've been playing at).  

Are there more differences between the rest (Southern, Fist, and so on) or is usually just one thing that has to do with how service is ordered?

[churchyreal]

Ill have to answer when I'm on my laptop.

[Fenix]

So I just need a straight, simple, and short answer: what day is the "real" Sabbath and how do I keep it holy? cuz it seems like me and a couple million Christians are doomed to eternal destruction over this. :\