Musicians if you cant play that hymn or that song you are wrong for that!!

[diverse379]

this was actually part of a discussion at the recent hampton ministers conference.

there was a drummer. who made this comment
that if you cant play that song in the key the singer is singing in you are wrong for that
if you cant play that hymn the preacher wants to sing you are wrong for that.
if you cant pick up that song the choir is singing you are wrong for that

someone said but what ifyou are doing the best you can.
'
and this is when it got hot.
the answer was if you are paid then your best has to be bottom line correct.you are paid to play the service to be prepared it is your business to know the material in the church to know the songs that are sung to be familiar with how chords are arranged to pick up effectively when you dont know. them.
to practice in every key so you sound as good in E as you do in Db

what would be your response be when the deacon board tells you they dont have your check today
whose fault is that?

it is whose fault that you cant play that hymn
its not anyones fault but yours.
it is time to to take your craft seriously
you dont go to a doctor who only knows part of the surgical procedure you require.

[churchyreal]

This gonna be good.

[lordluvr]

Ok, so what if you're NOT getting paid?

[under13]

I'll be back....

[Spiritfingaz]

Interesting...I'm inclined to agree..but something tells me that interpretation is unfair...there must be room for error and development in any position in church or in the world.  But I guess there's a difference between not knowing a song and fumbling a chord.  What about churches where the deacons make up songs or you're 17 and they sing songs from the 1940s that no one in the world knows but them...great for ear training, but takes development for someone who has never been exposed to that situation...experienced or inexperienced.

[Docdb04]

there was a drummer. who made this comment
that if you cant play that song in the key the singer is singing in you are wrong for that
if you cant play that hymn the preacher wants to sing you are wrong for that.
if you cant pick up that song the choir is singing you are wrong for that

I have to disagree.  There are many hymns and you will not possibly know every hymn.  Every church sings a different hymn and depending on the denomination, you will not know that particular hymn of the church.  However, if you are the church's musician, then you should make every effort in knowing the hymn next time around.

IRT songs that the choir sings, I disagree as well.  First, why would a choir sing a song that you are not familiar with?  Are you a guest musician or the primary musician?  If you are the primary musician, then are you not rehearsing the songs with the choir before hand?  Even if you rehearse a song Sunday morning, you are going over songs that you (the musician) already know.   

[diverse379]

all points are valid that have been said.
but the onus of responsibility has got to lie with the musician.
if you are PAID then you need to go on youtube or buy some cds in the genre of your deacons or your pastor or your church

am I saying that you will never make a mistake and if you make a mistake you should turn in your keyboard and say twenty Our Fathers

No of course not
we are all going to make mistakes
but when we do
who do we blame?

you cant blame the deacons who sing the songs that are from yesteryear now adays
we can find ways to find out the basics of those songs
come on we musicians know that those old songs used just a hand ful of devices pretty easy to figure out.

age doesnt matter if you are paid you ar e a professional and just like in the secular world when you get paid you are paid to know iand i you dont know you better ask somebody
many people in the world when faced with situations where they are not familiar they enlist the help of an outside consultant.

bring a teacher in to a service or a rehearsal let him hear what you are faced with.
take care of the problem
the fault lies with you and it is your responsibility to address it.

that isall I am saying
when I heard this trust me I was convicted,
I felt like the guy who said but I am doing the best I can.
but for how many  months weeks or years are you going to say that.

the deacons who sing strange songs bring a tape recorder
practice all the hyms or worship songs you hear in the church in every key.

make it your business to know the prolific writers and artist from the decades that preceded you.
know the 80.s hits
the 70.s hits
the 60's
just be well rounded.
sure we have to grow but on whoe dime are you growing and how long do you feel it is comfortable for you to remain ignorant.

many of these musicians play for traditional churches and all the practice when they go home is tye tribbett
is that fair to the congregation who pays them>
worship is about preparing the hearts of the people for the message. again I ask you would you pay for a surgean who can only only do hlf the procedure you require.
just be ye ever so ready the bible says that I didnt make that up.
Be ye ever so ready,
means just that study and make your self approved,

in other words build yourself
becasue if you dont you are wrong for that.

[B3Wannabe]

I agree.

[lordluvr]

all points are valid that have been said.
but the onus of responsibility has got to lie with the musician.
if you are PAID then you need to go on youtube or buy some cds in the genre of your deacons or your pastor or your church

am I saying that you will never make a mistake and if you make a mistake you should turn in your keyboard and say twenty Our Fathers

No of course not
we are all going to make mistakes
but when we do
who do we blame?

you cant blame the deacons who sing the songs that are from yesteryear now adays
we can find ways to find out the basics of those songs
come on we musicians know that those old songs used just a hand ful of devices pretty easy to figure out.

age doesnt matter if you are paid you ar e a professional and just like in the secular world when you get paid you are paid to know iand i you dont know you better ask somebody
many people in the world when faced with situations where they are not familiar they enlist the help of an outside consultant.

bring a teacher in to a service or a rehearsal let him hear what you are faced with.
take care of the problem
the fault lies with you and it is your responsibility to address it.

that isall I am saying
when I heard this trust me I was convicted,
I felt like the guy who said but I am doing the best I can.
but for how many  months weeks or years are you going to say that.

the deacons who sing strange songs bring a tape recorder
practice all the hyms or worship songs you hear in the church in every key.

make it your business to know the prolific writers and artist from the decades that preceded you.
know the 80.s hits
the 70.s hits
the 60's
just be well rounded.
sure we have to grow but on whoe dime are you growing and how long do you feel it is comfortable for you to remain ignorant.

many of these musicians play for traditional churches and all the practice when they go home is tye tribbett
is that fair to the congregation who pays them>
worship is about preparing the hearts of the people for the message. again I ask you would you pay for a surgean who can only only do hlf the procedure you require.
just be ye ever so ready the bible says that I didnt make that up.
Be ye ever so ready,
means just that study and make your self approved,

in other words build yourself
becasue if you dont you are wrong for that.

I do not disagree with any of this.  If you're getting paid and are not doing what is necessary to earn your paycheck, then shame on you.  However, I ask again, what if you're not paid?

[diverse379]

I have to disagree.  There are many hymns and you will not possibly know every hymn.  Every church sings a different hymn and depending on the denomination, you will not know that particular hymn of the church.  However, if you are the church's musician, then you should make every effort in knowing the hymn next time around.

IRT songs that the choir sings, I disagree as well.  First, why would a choir sing a song that you are not familiar with?  Are you a guest musician or the primary musician?  If you are the primary musician, then are you not rehearsing the songs with the choir before hand?  Even if you rehearse a song Sunday morning, you are going over songs that you (the musician) already know.   

I want to first say you should never never just be content with i didnt know it becuase I never heard it but I will get it next time.
just be prepared learn that hymn book.
learn how to sight read that book.
its not that hard

do you know if you just play the first chord of each measure  and nothing else atleastyou are outlining the song enough for the congreagation to follow.

I realize a lot of people are going to come with this type of argument if you dont know whose fault is it?
why dont you know
lack of experience you cant read?
music if you can read music you can play every hymn period. sometimes they dont give you time to find your page but you can still play it.
and you can actually learn how to transpose as you read
these are all skills of the professional.
you dont know how to create a chord chart
you dont have a teacher who can teach the songs to you
you have no idea how to play in any genre except the one you are most happy playing.
you dont own any Cds with a variety of church favorites
if you dont know at least 100 songs church favorites hymns worship choir songs
if you dontknow how to pla y  ashuffle the four basic devotional chord progressions.

if you dont know how to move chords diatonically.
you are just wrong for that.
then you have no business floating this argument.
if you know at least 100 songs and you fall short I am sure you know what you need to do.
and there would be no need to entertain anything any further.
I dont know every song but I read


If I visit another church I make sure I get there early I speak to devoitional leaders


it isnt the congreagations fault you are not prepared you hired yourself out
you need to make it your business to know

now does that mean you wont ever fall short
of course not and like you said make it your business e to know next time around
but you know if you learn how to read a lot of these questions of hymns will be taken care of.
and ifyou practice in every key your ability to pick up will improvetremendously

there are really no excuses

[diverse379]

I do not disagree with any of this.  If you're getting paid and are not doing what is necessary to earn your paycheck, then shame on you.  However, I ask again, what if you're not paid?

I answered this indirectly.
but if you are not paid and you do it voluntarily then I leave that between you and God and your personal sense of self.
 we all are on different skill levels
and we each have different work ethics.

to the unpaid musician learn what you can
but if you are the churches only musician,
just take care to bring your best.

[BassbyGrace]

this was actually part of a discussion at the recent hampton ministers conference.

there was a drummer. who made this comment...

I dismissed it after that.  No disrespect to drummers, but the drum set is for the most part a NON melodic, NON chordal instrument (as far as church is concerned).  You keep time, you embellish.  For alot of gospel songs you could play the same style beat and be good, whereas a keyboardist, bass player, guitar, has more to focus on (melody, chord structure, NOTES).  I dont mind putting it out there because I play them all.  Take hymns for instance.  A drummer doesnt need to know Blessed Assurance melody starts 3-2-1-5-5, but the chords walk up 5-6-7-1.  They just need doom-chat-chat, doom chat-chat.  This is no disrespect, but its easy for someone to say that when they dont have to deal with the mechanics and technicalities.  And what...  

[LaylaMonroe]

1. I totally disagree with most of the original post.

2. I know this won't be the popular answer, but IRT LL's question: I think unpaid church staff should work as hard as paid church staff and should put forth as much effort, assuming they are able to.

[T-Block]

If I don't know a song and can't pick it up, I won't play. And I don't give a care who gets mad. My personal integrity as a musician means more to me than some backflash from some people who know nothing about music. And lets be frank, it's usually the non-musicians who are on your back about these sorts of things.

People have too many high expectations for a musician. You have to be able to play every song known to man, and even the songs known only to one man or else ur garbage. What kinda crap is that? If you want me to learn ____ song, then u need to tell me before hand so I am prepared.

If u don't like my work, tell me so I can leave and go somewhere where my work is appreciated. If I'm wrong for that then so be it.

[churchyreal]

If I don't know a song and can't pick it up, I won't play. And I don't give a care who gets mad. My personal integrity as a musician means more to me than some backflash from some people who know nothing about music. And lets be frank, it's usually the non-musicians who are on your back about these sorts of things.

People have too many high expectations for a musician. You have to be able to play every song known to man, and even the songs known only to one man or else ur garbage. What kinda crap is that? If you want me to learn ____ song, then u need to tell me before hand so I am prepared.

If u don't like my work, tell me so I can leave and go somewhere where my work is appreciated. If I'm wrong for that then so be it.

This, all of this

[lordluvr]

1. I totally disagree with most of the original post.

2. I know this won't be the popular answer, but IRT LL's question: I think unpaid church staff should work as hard as paid church staff and should put forth as much effort, assuming they are able to.

My question wasn't one about effort.  It was more about outcome and finger-pointing.

Having been an unpaid musician as long as I've been with my church, I know that the requests and demands on the time of a musician can pull him/her in many different directions.  Frankly, most of the time, with having multiple praise teams/choirs to play for, and multiple individuals doing solos, there's little time available to perfect the craft because all available time is spent simply learning songs for next week.  So, how can I be blamed for not knowing a hym?  How can I be blamed for not knowing a song that nobody gave me the music to ahead of time?  Having said that, there are many songs that follow the same "patterns", so even if I have never played a song before, I may have played the pattern before, so I may be able to pick up the choir or singer easily.  Then, there are those other times......

[3rd-Day]

this was actually part of a discussion at the recent hampton ministers conference.

there was a drummer. who made this comment
that if you cant play that song in the key the singer is singing in you are wrong for that
if you cant play that hymn the preacher wants to sing you are wrong for that.
if you cant pick up that song the choir is singing you are wrong for that

someone said but what ifyou are doing the best you can.
'
and this is when it got hot.
the answer was if you are paid then your best has to be bottom line correct.you are paid to play the service to be prepared it is your business to know the material in the church to know the songs that are sung to be familiar with how chords are arranged to pick up effectively when you dont know. them.
to practice in every key so you sound as good in E as you do in Db

what would be your response be when the deacon board tells you they dont have your check today
whose fault is that?

it is whose fault that you cant play that hymn
its not anyones fault but yours.
it is time to to take your craft seriously
you dont go to a doctor who only knows part of the surgical procedure you require.

Ummmmm....NO!

Christian musicians can be the worst and down right careless. There is a way to say things to inspire people and put them on the offensive and this is not it. And Reading music is NOT EASY for everybody.  Im not even going to entertain this crap any more than I have.
The Thread title alone gets an EPIC Fail!

[under13]

I think everybody, especially T Block and BBG has said it all.

Its not going to kill anyone if the musician does not know that weird obscure song you are singing. They can sing acapoco .

as for reading, yeah I think musicians should know the basics and be able to sight read the right hand. But most contemporary black churches dont even have hymnbooks, and even if they do sing a hymn its most likely not going to be in the key that its written in. Its not like they say turn to page 311 and allow the musician to start the song.

[LaylaMonroe]

My question wasn't one about effort.  It was more about outcome and finger-pointing.

Having been an unpaid musician as long as I've been with my church, I know that the requests and demands on the time of a musician can pull him/her in many different directions.  Frankly, most of the time, with having multiple praise teams/choirs to play for, and multiple individuals doing solos, there's little time available to perfect the craft because all available time is spent simply learning songs for next week.  So, how can I be blamed for not knowing a hym?  How can I be blamed for not knowing a song that nobody gave me the music to ahead of time?  Having said that, there are many songs that follow the same "patterns", so even if I have never played a song before, I may have played the pattern before, so I may be able to pick up the choir or singer easily.  Then, there are those other times......

I guess I'm confused because that part in bold is true (or can be true) of both paid and unpaid musicians. I think the effort AND the outcome should be the same. Of course you can't dock an unpaid musician's salary, but the recourse for failure to develop or learn material etc. should be the same, IMO.

If there are problems with the workload being unreasonable or the musician not having enough time to learn material or not getting the material in advance or whatever, all of that stuff is stuff that can happen with paid or unpaid musicians, and the musician should address it and follow up to make sure it's rectified. But it's not an excuse, IMO.

[SirTJ]

I've got too much work to do to really dig deep into this, but these three...

I dismissed it after that.  No disrespect to drummers, but the drum set is for the most part a NON melodic, NON chordal instrument (as far as church is concerned).  You keep time, you embellish.  For alot of gospel songs you could play the same style beat and be good, whereas a keyboardist, bass player, guitar, has more to focus on (melody, chord structure, NOTES).  I dont mind putting it out there because I play them all.  Take hymns for instance.  A drummer doesnt need to know Blessed Assurance melody starts 3-2-1-5-5, but the chords walk up 5-6-7-1.  They just need doom-chat-chat, doom chat-chat.  This is no disrespect, but its easy for someone to say that when they dont have to deal with the mechanics and technicalities.  And what...  

If I don't know a song and can't pick it up, I won't play. And I don't give a care who gets mad. My personal integrity as a musician means more to me than some backflash from some people who know nothing about music. And lets be frank, it's usually the non-musicians who are on your back about these sorts of things.

People have too many high expectations for a musician. You have to be able to play every song known to man, and even the songs known only to one man or else ur garbage. What kinda crap is that? If you want me to learn ____ song, then u need to tell me before hand so I am prepared.

If u don't like my work, tell me so I can leave and go somewhere where my work is appreciated. If I'm wrong for that then so be it.

Ummmmm....NO!

Christian musicians can be the worst and down right careless. There is a way to say things to inspire people and put them on the offensive and this is not it. And Reading music is NOT EASY for everybody.  Im not even going to entertain this crap any more than I have.
The Thread title alone gets an EPIC Fail!

...nailed it on the head. These types of asinine assertions kill me. Reminds me why I always planned to be done with active 'church' playing after I turn 21.