Musicians if you cant play that hymn or that song you are wrong for that!!

[churchyreal]

Reminds me why I always planned to be done with active 'church' playing after I turn 21.

Really?

BTW this almost gets the debate going again about musicians knowing hymns, which has been pretty controversial on here.

[sjonathan02]

Everyone has basically said everything that needs be said concerning this topic.


Musicians being paid per song they know or don't know? Musicians being disparaged because they don't know a particular old hymn? Srsly?  

Even if the assertion held any truth, there's a better way to uplift and encourage cats. Period.

These types of asinine assertions kill me. Reminds me why I always planned to be done with active 'church' playing after I turn 21.

Aww man, don't allow the thoughts of a few to deter you from using your gift to bless those that will appreciate you, bruh.

[churchyreal]

Everyone has basically said everything that needs be said concerning this topic.


Musicians being paid per song they know or don't know? Musicians being disparaged because they don't know a particular old hymn? Srsly?  

Even if the assertion held any truth, there's a better way to uplift and encourage cats. Period.

Aww man, don't allow the thoughts of a few to deter you from using your gift to bless those that will appreciate you, bruh.

This

[malthumb]

Interesting...I'm inclined to agree..but something tells me that interpretation is unfair...there must be room for error and development in any position in church or in the world.  But I guess there's a difference between not knowing a song and fumbling a chord.  What about churches where the deacons make up songs or you're 17 and they sing songs from the 1940s that no one in the world knows but them...great for ear training, but takes development for someone who has never been exposed to that situation...experienced or inexperienced.

checks around to see if LaRue is watching...don't see her^ ^ ^ this

[Docdb04]

I want to first say you should never never just be content with i didnt know it becuase I never heard it but I will get it next time.
just be prepared learn that hymn book.
learn how to sight read that book.
its not that hard

I never said to be content with not knowing it becuause I never heard it, but the reality is, is that if I've never heard it, then how am I suppose to know it.  I am assuming we are talking about traditional songs only, because contemporary songs are of a whole different color.

IRT the hymn book, if you can read music, then you can learn the hymn book.  If you can't read music, then you have to sort out other methods, youtube, cd's or simply just ask someone of that generation to go over some old songs with you.  Reading music is a disciplined task and not everyone can just grasp it.  Sight reading is easy for those who know how to sight read. 

do you know if you just play the first chord of each measure  and nothing else atleastyou are outlining the song enough for the congreagation to follow.

This all depends on the comfort level of the musician.  Sometimes, I'll just play the changes and get the congregation through.  Other times, I just will not play anything.   

[Gibby]

HA! @ the thread. 

I like to play for free...not to say that I suck and I don't deserve to get paid but to me when churches start to pay a musician, the love goes and they feel like they own you in a sense.  Granted that they are paying you for a task to perform, but seriously...some churches need to take into account the amount of time it takes to prepare for a song and also all of the other things that a person has to do within the week like hold down a 40+hr/week job, family, playing at service etc....

That's why I left this one church I was playing for.  I was at the church almost 25~30 hours per week!!!  Plus there was bickering amongst other musicians and choir members.  And they tried to tell me "oh yeah...um...we are gonna have you under a trial period..."  Seriously?!  I'm thinking "you guys aren't all stars!  You guys aren't really creative either...if ya'll were so good then you could come up with your own songs!"  lemme quit...anywho...

There are churches that pay the MOM a yearly salary to know all the songs even if no one else knows it.  But if i'm able to quit my job (with the same amount of pay) and shed with my fellow musicians 40 hrs/week then I wouldn't mind if I was disciplined for not knowing a song...granted that there was enough time to prepare and not give it to me last minute.

[malthumb]

I play bass at a couple churches.  At both churches, hardly a week goes by that they aren't playing SOMETHING that I'm not familiar with.  "Learn the hymnal" doesn't work, because neither church subscribes just to the hymnal or the "Songs Of Zion", though I have figured out which songs I need to know from that.

As a bassist, that puts me in a difficult position.  On one hand, I along with the drummer have to drive the rhythm.  On the other hand, my note choices have to fit into what the piano / organ / keys are playing.

If I have never heard the song, I get the keyboardist or the MoM to at least tell me the key they're gonna play it in (not always the one in the hymnal, btw) and if there are any modulations I need to be aware of.  If there's time before service starts, I ask them to walk through it real fast so I can at least get a clue to what's going on.

I find the root and LAY ON IT until I figure out where it's going.  Larry Graham played one note on "Everyday People" and that song is a classic!  On rare ocassions where I find myself totally clueless, I sit it out.  Playing no notes is better than playing wrong notes or just flat out guessing.

I guess where I take issue with the initial premice of this thread is that somebody has to be "wrong" or "at fault", especially when it comes to dealing with something that for whatever reason changed beyond their control.  Every musician is responsible for doing their absolute best.  When mistakes are made, learn from them, don't waste time hunting down the perpetrators.

[chevonee]

If I don't know a song and can't pick it up, I won't play. And I don't give a care who gets mad. My personal integrity as a musician means more to me than some backflash from some people who know nothing about music. And lets be frank, it's usually the non-musicians who are on your back about these sorts of things.

People have too many high expectations for a musician. You have to be able to play every song known to man, and even the songs known only to one man or else ur garbage. What kinda crap is that? If you want me to learn ____ song, then u need to tell me before hand so I am prepared.

If u don't like my work, tell me so I can leave and go somewhere where my work is appreciated. If I'm wrong for that then so be it.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[sjonathan02]

When mistakes are made, learn from them, don't waste time hunting down the perpetrators.

Such a gem, right there. And, my new signature. Thanks!

[diverse379]

I dismissed it after that.  No disrespect to drummers, but the drum set is for the most part a NON melodic, NON chordal instrument (as far as church is concerned).  You keep time, you embellish.  For alot of gospel songs you could play the same style beat and be good, whereas a keyboardist, bass player, guitar, has more to focus on (melody, chord structure, NOTES).  I dont mind putting it out there because I play them all.  Take hymns for instance.  A drummer doesnt need to know Blessed Assurance melody starts 3-2-1-5-5, but the chords walk up 5-6-7-1.  They just need doom-chat-chat, doom chat-chat.  This is no disrespect, but its easy for someone to say that when they dont have to deal with the mechanics and technicalities.  And what...  

Wow
the drummer's name was jeff -lo Davis
from my understanding he has decades of expereince and has played under many many many major producers and writers and artist
and his discussions were from a very spiritual point of refrence as opposed to just an instrumental perspective he was actually voted on this site as the fourth top studio drummer
I never heard him play but the man is annointed to instruct because his words were far reaching

[diverse379]

I think everyone is reading into this definitely not how  I intended

when I said you are wrong for this or when the drummer said you are wrong for this.

he meant that you you need to take accountablility,
he is not saying anyone is blaming you.

he was calling you to a higher standard of learning your craft.

as far as I am concerned It has inspired me to learn my craft differently.
to spend time on the uncomfortable things.

the presenters at this conference jams sessions
were

David Fraiseir
PJ morgan
Stephen KEY
and jeff lo Davis

it was an annointed session
and jeff;s words have caused me to hold myself accountable.
this was never to implly that someone else is blaming you
but that we as musicians ministers need to study to show ourselves approved
thea a workman is worthy of his hire but a lazy workman is not really a workman.

T block
you ae one that practices in every key progressions we have had many discussions
3rd day is one of the best musicians I have heard so for you guys to not hold other people to the same standard ou hol of yourselves is surprising to me.
this post was to encourage  self exploration
and a call to raise the bar that we set  for ourselves

never never never was it about pleasing anyone else

[diverse379]

one more point maybe the title put people on the defensive and an offended soul is hard to win over.
but also i believe the bible  says that we need to break things down in order to build them up.

somehow people have shifted this topic as if it is being petty .
but we forget that as ministers of music taking money every sunday
we should endeavor to do our best and lets face it sometimes our best is woefully wanting
you can dismiss my post as being asine
or an epic fail
but my motives were to try to get people to stop being complacent with themselves and raise the bar for themselves
me myself was guilty of not learning certain hymns but I did  learn to read which helps me be more useful to my ministry
I did learn how to play in every key so that I can be more equipped.

I find it surprising that the same people who advocate playing in every key

would mis interpret this thread and think it was some sor t of bashing when in reality i t is not at all.

but hey who am I

I am out

[sjonathan02]

one more point maybe the title put people on the defensive and an offended soul is hard to win over.
but also i believe the bible  says that we need to break things down in order to build them up.

somehow people have shifted this topic as if it is being petty .
but we forget that as ministers of music taking money every sunday
we should endeavor to do our best and lets face it sometimes our best is woefully wanting
you can dismiss my post as being asine
or an epic fail
but my motives were to try to get people to stop being complacent with themselves and raise the bar for themselves
me myself was guilty of not learning certain hymns but I did  learn to read which helps me be more useful to my ministry
I did learn how to play in every key so that I can be more equipped.

I find it surprising that the same people who advocate playing in every key

would mis interpret this thread and think it was some sor t of bashing when in reality i t is not at all.

but hey who am I

I am out

You mean the way a person can misinterpret the joke of another and find it offensive?


What is it they say?


It's not what you say, it's how you say it.



I guess that goes for jokes and threads. *kanyeshrug* Good to see you around again, Diverse.

[BassbyGrace]

Theres nothing wrong with encouraging ppl to be better, and encouraging ppl to be well rounded, but understand your first post was presented as a mandate, as someone already judging.  Perhaps you should have posted more of his statements or not presented it in the fashion that you did.  You pretty much set the stage for the defensiveness.  Honestly if you would have put your next to last post in the original, this might have taken a different turn. 

I still disagree with alot of what he said, because every church is different.  Everything else has already be stated. 

[SisterCM]

one more point maybe the title put people on the defensive and an offended soul is hard to win over.
but also i believe the bible  says that we need to break things down in order to build them up.

somehow people have shifted this topic as if it is being petty .
but we forget that as ministers of music taking money every sunday
we should endeavor to do our best and lets face it sometimes our best is woefully wanting
you can dismiss my post as being asine
or an epic fail
but my motives were to try to get people to stop being complacent with themselves and raise the bar for themselves
me myself was guilty of not learning certain hymns but I did  learn to read which helps me be more useful to my ministry
I did learn how to play in every key so that I can be more equipped.

I find it surprising that the same people who advocate playing in every key

would mis interpret this thread and think it was some sor t of bashing when in reality i t is not at all.

but hey who am I

I am out

Your post is very encouraging to me to keep going forward and I just recently started my music ministry.  God bless you my brother and keep on posting.

[under13]

Wow
the drummer's name was jeff -lo Davis
from my understanding he has decades of expereince and has played under many many many major producers and writers and artist
and his discussions were from a very spiritual point of refrence as opposed to just an instrumental perspective he was actually voted on this site as the fourth top studio drummer
I never heard him play but the man is annointed to instruct because his words were far reaching

Davis? Thats not the first time I heard him say something wacky.

[LaylaMonroe]

Before I saw these last two posts from Diverse, I was going to say something. Her posts kinda prove my point.

It's not a good idea, in general, to respond to something a specific person said without hearing his statements from his mouth IN CONTEXT. I'm not going to elaborate too much beyond that because most of us are intelligent people, and will understand what I'm saying. Just because YOU interpreted what he said in that way doesn't mean we're going to interpret what you said he said the same way... and there's no way we can really know what he meant or how he meant it if we weren't there to hear the context of the discussion.

Just the other day, someone called me out on a comment I made. I had a conversation with a leader about our pastor.  I was quoted as saying to her, "you don't need an answer to anything, you don't need to understand anything, just be quiet and learn to submit. Just do what he tells you to do, period." If you isolate that statement, it sounds like someone is fostering a cult or at the very least a blind devotion to a human being. But in context, the statement made a whooooole lot more sense than it appears to make. If you know me, you can probably guess "oh she probably meant xyz"... you know how it is when you hear something someone said and think, "there's no way she said that... or if she did say it, she didn't mean it like that. I know her."

That's why I usually prefer to know the context in which something was said before I react to it. As I said earlier, I disagree with what he was reported to have said, but it could be that he was having a larger-scale conversation about a general issue as a result of a specific incident that arose or that he heard of... there's just no telling.

[T-Block]

T block
you ae one that practices in every key progressions we have had many discussions
3rd day is one of the best musicians I have heard so for you guys to not hold other people to the same standard ou hol of yourselves is surprising to me.
this post was to encourage  self exploration
and a call to raise the bar that we set  for ourselves

I still have the same standards. It's just that ur intial post comes off in a very negative "my way is the right way and anything less is garbage" knida way. And this is coming from a drummer? A person who doesn't even play keys? He doesn't have any right talking about anything that has to do with the keys if he doesn't play himself. He can nit-pick drums all he wants.

Over the years, I've learned that you can't control what other musicians do. All you can do is do the best you can and hope that God is pleased with it. You can share ur knowledge with others, but it's up to them to receive it if they want.

I respect ur opinion D, so please respect ours as well.

[3rd-Day]

Anyone that knows me or knows about me will tell you that I practice hard. I have high standards for myself. So high that they are unrealistic. I am never satisfied with the level that I am at. I trash my musical ideas because they are not hot enough. In fact I sometimes hate the way I play because its not the sound that I am striving for. I am my worst critic and that has made it difficult for me to accept compliments because I dont feel like I deserve them. Im not there yet, I need to work harder, I could have been cleaner etc.

I will say that I do understand where the clinician was coming from. I can see accountability, responsibility, initiative, proactive, all of those things. I understand the message he was trying to get across and I dont think that you meant any harm.

(Feel free to skip the next two paragraphs)

(1) I used to have this outward gung ho mentality, trust me. But, I had to dumb it down because I was starting to push people away. Its still haunts me.

(2) I walked in a church last Thursday night and asked the drummer if he would help me out, because my drummer or bass player was not going to be able to make it.  He shook his head nervously and said, "No, um that guy over there is way better than me. Im not on your level man."  I put my hand on his shoulder to try to calm him and said to him, "Listen,I think you will do a fine job. All you have to do maintain eye contact with me. The songs are very easy. I wont leave you hangin." Even though he knew the songs, he still didnt feel confident enough to do it so he passed. I have never met the kid before, never seen him im my life. It was my dumb reputation that got to him, before he even met me in person. Mind you, the kid could play his behind off, but he didnt want to help me because of what he heard about me. "They say you dont play around, you aint know joke blah blah." That didnt make me feel good.


I said all that to say this. We can sometimes be careless. We need to be careful how we say what we say, to the who's we say them too. Me and you and can sit around a table talk to eachother because we are both passionate about our craft. You told me that if my hands were hurting from doing the Hannon exercises, then it was because I was doing something wrong. So, you know what I did, I figure out what I was doing wrong and have not had that problem since. Everyone is not going to be receptive to that stern to the point "get your crap together" correction/encouragement.

All I know is that this:

"3rd day is one of the best musicians I have heard."

meant a lot to me coming from you. 

Jeff Davis is one of my Favorite drummers, hands down. I love his sound. Very seasoned, very humble, very down to earth. I wish that I was there to hear what he said and how he said it so that I could have understood the both of you in a greater way.


 

[gtrdave]

there was a drummer who made this comment

 

Drummer should be thankful that he's even ALLOWED to hang out with musicians.