Should churches.......

[Arkhams Finest]

I think it's a bad idea. No matter how u look at it, you're taking money that you already have out of the church and putting it into a system that may or may not yield any returns. God doesn't deal in chance and so shouldn't the church.

A conservative investment plan is faaaar more likely to grow slowly over time.  There will be fluctuations, but a wise investor and a conservative plan will yield good results.

It's not blackjack.   

[Arkhams Finest]

Is investing gambling, though?  I don't believe so, look at the parable of the talents.  There is some investing that is unwise and does indeed amount to gambling, but if you research a product or an idea, and feel that it is worth making an investment, it is not the same thing. 

Very good point.

[nessalynn77]

Just don't be like the mormons and invest in something you teach against, LOL! 

[lordluvr]

Investing in the Stock Market, when done both conservatively, and by someone who knows what they're doing, would be a very good idea.

You don't take all the church treasury and invest in the market, but if you invest a portion of the treasury wisely, it can be beneficial.

It isn't for everyone though.  If you have a small church and not much funds in the treasury, and you're trying to make a million dollars in 3 months, it's a bad idea.

If you have a large church with a substantial treasury, and don't mind waiting for a smart, conservative market plan to yield results, then it's a good idea.

Granted, I've been a part of small (translated: broke) churches all of my adult life.  So, there may be projects that larger churches take on that smaller churches do not. With that said, I can't foresee too many projects or reasons for a church, large or otherwise, to need to invest long-term.  As I mentioned earlier, most churches I've seen use their resources for short-term (under 5-year) projects and "ministries".  And, of course, they have their cash reserve (which should NEVER be invested in the market).

To your point of investing "conservatively", a "conservative" investment plan is going to heavily involve the use of bonds and money market instruments- and some stock market investments.  Does investing "conservatively" get away from the original question a bit?  Or, are you asserting that the only way you can see a church investing in the market is by using the "conservative" approach?  

My overall point is that a church should invest (in the stock market) what it can afford to lose.  To me, the risk cannot be justified unless there's a sufficient timeframe to help mitigate risk.  As an investment professional, I've been through 3 recessions and have seen how investments that were "performing well" turned into relative "junk" in a matter of months.  

If a church is planning on doing some long-term building, I'd rather they invest in the land they plan to build on than in the market.

[funkStrat_97]

Is investing gambling, though?  I don't believe so, look at the parable of the talents.  There is some investing that is unwise and does indeed amount to gambling, but if you research a product or an idea, and feel that it is worth making an investment, it is not the same thing. 

Gambling and investing are two different things.  Gambling is more of a green thing - get rich quick.  Sound investing is a long and slow process that will have set backs along the way. Notice I said sound investing.  Investing can look like gambling when greed becomes your motivation.

[LaylaMonroe]

Granted, I've been a part of small (translated: broke) churches all of my adult life.  So, there may be projects that larger churches take on that smaller churches do not. With that said, I can't foresee too many projects or reasons for a church, large or otherwise, to need to invest long-term.  As I mentioned earlier, most churches I've seen use their resources for short-term (under 5-year) projects and "ministries".  And, of course, they have their cash reserve (which should NEVER be invested in the market).

To your point of investing "conservatively", a "conservative" investment plan is going to heavily involve the use of bonds and money market instruments- and some stock market investments.  Does investing "conservatively" get away from the original question a bit?  Or, are you asserting that the only way you can see a church investing in the market is by using the "conservative" approach?  

My overall point is that a church should invest (in the stock market) what it can afford to lose.  To me, the risk cannot be justified unless there's a sufficient timeframe to help mitigate risk.  As an investment professional, I've been through 3 recessions and have seen how investments that were "performing well" turned into relative "junk" in a matter of months.  

If a church is planning on doing some long-term building, I'd rather they invest in the land they plan to buid on than in the market.

Again, I wholeheartedly agree; and if I could've said it that well myself, I would have.

The part in bold brings a couple of questions to mind. What can a church afford to lose? Even a wealthy, stable, mega-church? As long as there are homeless people in the community, widows, jobless people, drug addicts, teen runaways, children in hospitals, folks in prison, men who were recently released, children whose parents are incarcerated, HS grads on their way to college; what can a church afford to lose?? Why isn't the money they can afford to lose being spent doing ministry??

Are these "long-term goals" based on assignments directly from God and/or the Biblical blueprint for church, or based on our own vision, desires, dreams and goals?

I would say a ministry-minded church only has money "to lose" when no one in their community is hungry.

[lordluvr]

Again, I wholeheartedly agree; and if I could've said it that well myself, I would have.

The part in bold brings a couple of questions to mind. What can a church afford to lose? Even a wealthy, stable, mega-church? As long as there are homeless people in the community, widows, jobless people, drug addicts, teen runaways, children in hospitals, folks in prison, men who were recently released, children whose parents are incarcerated, HS grads on their way to college; what can a church afford to lose?? Why isn't the money they can afford to lose being spent doing ministry??

Are these "long-term goals" based on assignments directly from God and/or the Biblical blueprint for church, or based on our own vision, desires, dreams and goals?

I would say a ministry-minded church only has money "to lose" when no one in their community is hungry.

I'll take it a step further and say that the church never has money it can afford to lose- especially if that money is derived from the members' tithes and offerings.

[LaylaMonroe]

I think sometimes we lose sight of our purpose. <---- that's kinda random, stemming from some of the unrelated stuff that's running around in my head, which was brought on by this subject

I just thought to myself, there are churches - GOOD, kingdom-advancing churches - struggling all over this country to stay afloat.  If another church has money to put in the stock market, why don't they use that to help another church?  I can hear the argument "well, it's their money, they don't have to give/loan it to another church." And that's valid. It's really not different from those pastors (and laity) who spend extravagantly, when members of their own congregation are lacking. Shoot, it's not different from us with our luxury cars, cable subscriptions, 6 bedroom homes, designer glasses to match every outfit... it's our money and we have the right to spend it however we want, right?

Bought with a price. Purpose. Members of the same body. Whatever you did for the least of these. Communalism. Acts church.

These are just some of the ADMITTEDLY VERY RANDOM thoughts running through my mind right now.

I'll take it a step further and say that the church never has money it can afford to lose- especially if that money is derived from the members' tithes and offerings.

Another good point. I agree. I've agreed with you 3 times today at $20 a pop. That'll be $60, please. 

[LaylaMonroe]

Okay sorry, one more thing.

I think we lose sight of our purpose. Our purpose isn't to obtain massive wealth, it's to win souls. I can understand that many will say that they can do more ministry with more money, but if you're not doing "more ministry" with the "extra" money you have to invest, who's to say you'll do "more ministry" with the returns? And honestly, I don't know if we (meaning today's Christians) even have a fair grasp on what "more ministry" is... bigger churches, better pews, nicer equipment, nicer furniture, better cars, etc... how much of our budgets actually go directly to ministering to people? I read a study on that a few months ago. I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember being a little dismayed by it. George Barna did the study. I think a little over half (like 52-53%) of the average church's budget was spent on operational costs and direct ministry. The rest was spent on... stuff. Indirectly, I'm sure much of it relates to doing ministry somehow, but at the end of the day most churches spend most of their money on making their churches look better in comparison to the church next door...

Most of us want wealth, but the Bible says that it's harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to make it to heaven.

Maybe we should just skip all the risk-taking and just keep ministry pure and simple, like it was in Acts.

Just thinking aloud.

[lordluvr]

Another good point. I agree. I've agreed with you 3 times today at $20 a pop. That'll be $60, please. 

Sorry, it's tied up in investments. 

[Arkhams Finest]

Seems we're completely ignoring the parable of the talents huh?   

ok.

[chevonee]

You guys are good !!!! I've been trying to learn different ways to help the church financially without having to sell chicken and fish plates....AND without having to invite Reverend So and so just to make ends meet. Around here our leaders are too willing to allow some fool to come in and undo everything they work so hard to build just to make a buck. It's a JOKE!!

[LaylaMonroe]

Seems we're completely ignoring the parable of the talents huh?   

ok.

Who's we?  

I had already considered that, after I did a google search first thing this morning to get other perspectives on the topic. (I was considering using this topic for my blog). I saw a reference to the talents and looked into it.  I don't really have anything else to add. Nessa said that investing isn't gambling, per the parable of the talents. I never disagreed with that, and it wasn't addressed to me, so I didn't bother to reply. *shrug*

 

You guys are good !!!! I've been trying to learn different ways to help the church financially without having to sell chicken and fish plates....AND without having to invite Reverend So and so just to make ends meet. Around here our leaders are too willing to allow some fool to come in and undo everything they work so hard to build just to make a buck. It's a JOKE!!

Maybe your church needs to downsize and keep their expenditures simple.

[lordluvr]

Seems we're completely ignoring the parable of the talents huh?   

ok.

Well, if you wanna discuss it, lets...

First, a couple of points of clarification.  We're talking about a parable- a short story used to illustrate a moral lesson.  The purpose of this parable is not to illustrate how one should invest money, but rather emphasize that one must put to good use that which the Master has put in his charge, from a theological perspective.  So, if we juxtapose this parable into the concept of investing church funds, I think the discussion has to start with where the money came from and what its intended purpose is.  Typically, church funds are derived from contributions from its members, and typically the intended use is for the work of the ministry- however that manifests.  

So, if we stick with the parable, a church having enough money to invest long-term is probably not using enough money "for the work of the ministry" and is akin to the person burying his talent.  I can understand saving up for building a new structure, but that money should not be put into the market because even a small risk of loss is too much when you're talking about using it for the ministry.  So much more I could say...so little time.

[Arkhams Finest]

Who's we?  

Um, you.   

a church having enough money to invest long-term is probably not using enough money for the work of the ministry and is akin to the person burying his talent.

 

The only way the talents that were given could increase would be if they were used to trade. 

Is trading guaranteed to make money?  No.  You can LOSE it if you trade unwisely.

How do I know this?

Because the servant who dug a hole and hid his did so out of fear of losing what he had.

He was afraid of the risk.

I don't think I could've written a more applicable parable myself.   

[LaylaMonroe]

I have so much to say.

[Arkhams Finest]

I have so much to say.

I'll take "Obvious Statements" for $1000 Alex.




















 

[chevonee]

I have so much to say.

Say it PLEASE!!! Your wisdom will help a lot of folks. mainly me

[nessalynn77]

Ok, I'll admit I scanned and didn't read page two, so forgive me in advance, lol.

But to me it's foresight vs. only seeing what's directly happening here and now.  I don't knock either approach, but to me, there's something to be said for a pastor or board that looks down the road and compares helping maybe a few less people now to work into the budget a program that can help vastly more people in the future.  For example, a small food pantry vs. being able to open a food bank.  Some of that is just vision, and if you prayerfully and wisely invest and work the funds you have, you can do more that what you're doing.  The future can be greater more far reaching ministry, or having the capital it takes for this "excellence" we pursue.  Face it, a lot of that is costly which is why many churches get put down for having to "make do".  If a small church has a sound plan to do better, after seeking God for his guidance, I support that.

[BigFoot_BigThumb]

If they're investing my offering and tithes, then I want my cut when it pays back high dividends...ESPECIALLY if the Pastor is always stressing give and I'll give it back to you to encourage giving.  If the stocks plummet, don't come crying to the congregation to dig deeper to save the church.  It all comes down to good stewardship and it doesn't sound wise to me as the stock market is not guaranteed to always be stable.  If they can invest in stocks, then don't get mad at me for playing the lottery cuz it's the SAME thang as it's a game of chance.