Should churches.......

[Arkhams Finest]

If they can invest in stocks, then don't get mad at me for playing the lottery cuz it's the SAME thang as it's a game of chance.

It most definitely is NOT my friend.

[nessalynn77]

If they're investing my offering and tithes, then I want my cut when it pays back high dividends...ESPECIALLY if the Pastor is always stressing give and I'll give it back to you to encourage giving.  If the stocks plummet, don't come crying to the congregation to dig deeper to save the church.  It all comes down to good stewardship and it doesn't sound wise to me as the stock market is not guaranteed to always be stable.  If they can invest in stocks, then don't get mad at me for playing the lottery cuz it's the SAME thang as it's a game of chance.

No.

The church wouldn't have to be saved, because they would be investing money that was set aside for the purpose. 

Saying things in extremes and drastic generalizations to make it sound more true only works in politics... and not even then most of the time.

[chevonee]

It most definitely is NOT my friend.

This.

[funkStrat_97]

If they're investing my offering and tithes, then I want my cut when it pays back high dividends...ESPECIALLY if the Pastor is always stressing give and I'll give it back to you to encourage giving.  If the stocks plummet, don't come crying to the congregation to dig deeper to save the church.  It all comes down to good stewardship and it doesn't sound wise to me as the stock market is not guaranteed to always be stable.  If they can invest in stocks, then don't get mad at me for playing the lottery cuz it's the SAME thang as it's a game of chance.

As others have pointed out, it is definitely not the same thing.  The lottery is decidedly against you winning anything.  You know, people do get enticed by the possibility of making it big without working hard for it.  This is how Ponzi schemes work.  An acquaintance of mine used to own an investment company but was recently busted for investment fraud.  Ponzi schemes lure people with promises of better than average returns on investments.  Good ones - like Bernie Maddoff's - seem to be deliver this promise and can sustain itself for a while.  Ultimately, the scheme will collapse under its own weight. 

While the system is not perfect, it is not a game at all.  And if you want to say that investing in the stock market is a game of chance, then what about being an entrepreneur.  By the very definition, and entrepreneur is one who assumes a certain amount of risk - i.e. a chance - that they may loose it all.  So should Christians just stay away from the business world because it is essentially a game of chance?  No way.  There are no guarantees in this life other than you will one day die and that no matter what happens, the IRS will find you...so don't be too surprised if you're still receiving collection calls from them even after the rapture has occurred.

[T-Block]

It all comes down to good stewardship and it doesn't sound wise to me as the stock market is not guaranteed to always be stable.  If they can invest in stocks, then don't get mad at me for playing the lottery cuz it's the SAME thang as it's a game of chance.

Man, that's exactly how I feel about it. I guess were just odd ducks here.

[Mysteryman]

Somebody just needs to come up with scripture examples of the church ministry investing in the stock market(world system).  Personally I think churches need to get back to the basics of it's mission. We have done many things that seem good at the time. Churches have raised separate money to build family life centers, social halls, etc but when these don't bring income we take it's from the tithes and offering and put a strain on the ministry. It's kinda crazy when you think of all the gyms, social halls, etc our tax dollars have paid for. Usually it ends with people giving sacrificial offerings and special gifts. Sometimes I wonder if God is pleased with all this. It's like the spouse who goes and gets in debt and expects the other to bail them out. That's an unnecessary burden.

[Arkhams Finest]

Somebody just needs to come up with scripture examples of the church ministry investing in the stock market(world system). 

Parable of the Talents:

The only way the talents that were given could increase would be if they were used to trade. 

Is trading guaranteed to make money?  No.  You can LOSE it if you trade unwisely.

How do I know this?

Because the servant who dug a hole and hid his did so out of fear of losing what he had.

He was afraid of the risk.

I don't think I could've written a more applicable parable myself.   

As LL (correctly) pointed out, investing finance was not the main theme behind this parable.  But everything Jesus said, and a GREAT deal of the bible, is multi-layered and have multiple lessons.

The standard way we interpret the parable of the talents is to say:
"Whatever God has given you you must grow it and build on it.  The servant who had one talent was lazy and didn't work with what he had."

Lazy?  That isn't what the bible said.  His actual response to his master was:

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine."

THAT'S IT!

He wasn't lazy.  He was too afraid of losing what he had via trading.  He hid it because he lacked faith.

I don't think I need to go into drawing parallels between that parable and this discussion as it's pretty obvious.

[LaylaMonroe]

I do not believe that the Parable of the Talents, in any way, gives the green light to churches to invest in the stock market. I just don't see that, and yesterday I read it in about 6 or 7 different versions, including the literal translation. I do not see that parable as a "Biblical example" of stock trading, so I would hesitate to say that it is obvious. It may be obvious if that's the perspective from which you approach it, but I don't think it's any different from how old school Apostolics think Deuteronomy 22:5 is "obvious" or all the other examples... a lot of things can be "obvious" if you look at it from a particular perspective. That's neither here nor there. Just know that it is equally OBVIOUS to me that this parable was NOT shared for the purpose of sanctioning or encouraging stock market investing.

Somebody just needs to come up with scripture examples of the church ministry investing in the stock market(world system).  Personally I think churches need to get back to the basics of it's mission. We have done many things that seem good at the time. Churches have raised separate money to build family life centers, social halls, etc but when these don't bring income we take it's from the tithes and offering and put a strain on the ministry. It's kinda crazy when you think of all the gyms, social halls, etc our tax dollars have paid for. Usually it ends with people giving sacrificial offerings and special gifts. Sometimes I wonder if God is pleased with all this. It's like the spouse who goes and gets in debt and expects the other to bail them out. That's an unnecessary burden.

I agree with that part in bold.

But I do think that some of the projects you mentioned are ministry-focused, if they serve the people in the name of the Lord. Gyms can keep kids off the streets and in a positive, Christian environment. I support these kinds of programs, and I celebrate the churches that are able to complete such projects. I just believe that these days, it's becoming harder and harder to remain focused on the true mission of the church. We take small, negligible steps away from the original purpose and justify it with words like "ministry" and "soul-winning" and "kingdom" and stuff, and next thing we know, going into the highways and hedges to preach the gospel becomes secondary. Reaching out to the lost becomes secondary. The ministry that Paul and Jesus and John and Peter modeled for us becomes... secondary.

I, too, often wonder if Jesus is pleased.

[LaylaMonroe]

[

Lazy?  That isn't what the bible said.  His actual response to his master was:

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine."

THAT'S IT!

He wasn't lazy.  He was too afraid of losing what he had via trading.  He hid it because he lacked faith.

And btw, several translations do indicate that the master called the servant "lazy." That's where that probably came from, so it IS what the Bible says, in some translations.

I would also consider why Jesus was telling that particular parable when determining his point.

[nessalynn77]

I think the disconnect is that somewhere someone thinks that the church is taking money that pays the bills and putting it in the stock market OR that the church is putting money into random scams or something.  

Truth is, the church already makes solid investments to some extent, especially if you look at your various organizations that your local church belongs to.  

Truth is, if we applied these same misgivings to an individual, they would sound closed-minded and antiquated (sp?).  Would you encourage a head of household to invest money they have left after paying the bills?  Would you encourage them to be wise and seek proper financial advice?  Would you yourself invest money to strengthen your financial standing and help you gain the capital to achieve your long term dreams and goals?  If investing is such a bad thing why would it be okay to build wealth for your family, but not for the ministry?  

To me, and maybe I'm missing something, it seems like if it's done properly, it's a legitimate way to use a world system to benefit the kingdom.  That's kind of what the parable of the talents was saying anyway; take what God has given you, and go out and work it to bring a return to the kingdom on what God has invested in you.  Money itself is a world system, and I don't see any reservations about using it.  You mean to tell me the church can spend money but can't look for better ways to get a return on their money?  

[nessalynn77]

I do not believe that the Parable of the Talents, in any way, gives the green light to churches to invest in the stock market. I just don't see that, and yesterday I read it in about 6 or 7 different versions, including the literal translation. I do not see that parable as a "Biblical example" of stock trading, so I would hesitate to say that it is obvious. It may be obvious if that's the perspective from which you approach it, but I don't think it's any different from how old school Apostolics think Deuteronomy 22:5 is "obvious" or all the other examples... a lot of things can be "obvious" if you look at it from a particular perspective. That's neither here nor there. Just know that it is equally OBVIOUS to me that this parable was NOT shared for the purpose of sanctioning or encouraging stock market investing.

I agree with that part in bold.

But I do think that some of the projects you mentioned are ministry-focused, if they serve the people in the name of the Lord. Gyms can keep kids off the streets and in a positive, Christian environment. I support these kinds of programs, and I celebrate the churches that are able to complete such projects. I just believe that these days, it's becoming harder and harder to remain focused on the true mission of the church. We take small, negligible steps away from the original purpose and justify it with words like "ministry" and "soul-winning" and "kingdom" and stuff, and next thing we know, going into the highways and hedges to preach the gospel becomes secondary. Reaching out to the lost becomes secondary. The ministry that Paul and Jesus and John and Peter modeled for us becomes... secondary.

I, too, often wonder if Jesus is pleased.

But I don't think this is problem is a lack of focus on ministry, all of this is a part of ministry.  To me what is taking away from the focus is the church's "By any means necessary" approach to getting people to come.  Biblically, I just don't see where any gimmicks or sideshows were needed to attract people to Christ.  I think they are all diversions to keep people from noticing the fact that the church is losing or in some cases has lost the demonstration of the power of God, and any reverence for God and the things God deems sacred, honorable, and righteous. 

I think that this particular mode of bringing revenue is not so much at fault as the actual sin the church condones and even promotes...

[B_X]

They can always continue to invest in real estate.

Yes! I agree. My church owns our church free and clear, and we also own all of the house on the block. They are used for different purposes like additional classrooms, the daycare center and the school. I think that its a wonderful thing.

[LaylaMonroe]

I think the disconnect is that somewhere someone thinks that the church is taking money that pays the bills and putting it in the stock market OR that the church is putting money into random scams or something.  

Truth is, the church already makes solid investments to some extent, especially if you look at your various organizations that your local church belongs to.  

Truth is, if we applied these same misgivings to an individual, they would sound closed-minded and antiquated (sp?).  Would you encourage a head of household to invest money they have left after paying the bills?  Would you encourage them to be wise and seek proper financial advice?  Would you yourself invest money to strengthen your financial standing and help you gain the capital to achieve your long term dreams and goals?  If investing is such a bad thing why would it be okay to build wealth for your family, but not for the ministry?  

To me, and maybe I'm missing something, it seems like if it's done properly, it's a legitimate way to use a world system to benefit the kingdom.  That's kind of what the parable of the talents was saying anyway; take what God has given you, and go out and work it to bring a return to the kingdom on what God has invested in you.  Money itself is a world system, and I don't see any reservations about using it.  You mean to tell me the church can spend money but can't look for better ways to get a return on their money?  

My reply... kinda random order....

No disconnect on my end. I'm clear that, at this point, we're talking about churches investing extra money in the stock market after conducting research and enlisting the aid of professionals to broker their investments.

I don't think investing is "such a bad thing" at all. I know you weren't directing this solely to me, but just for the record, I never said it was a bad thing. I think what I've consistently said is something along the lines of: I would never advise a church to invest in the stock market.

I think there's a difference in the way individuals manage their money and the way churches manage its money, so I can't really get with that comparison.  For one, churches are governed by laws, bylaws, Biblical instructions, and its governing body. Furthermore, after paying the bills, a head of household can do whatever he wants with his money. A church, on the other hand, should do its Bible-mandated purpose: ministry. I'm reminded of the thread we had on fundraising. SisT said something that I've never been able to forget, and though it's a totally different subject, the principle applies. Churches are to be funded by tithes and offering. If they can't do what they want to do based on tithe and offering, then they are doing too much. I would venture to add, though I'm sure many will disagree, that if they have money left over, they aren't doing enough. And no, I'm not saying they should be broke or have a $0 account balance at the end of every month. There should always be an emergency reserve, and that goes without saying. But IMO, any "extra" money should be invested in the kingdom, not the stock market.

Lastly, the church is not a worldly corporation, nor is it a for-profit corporation. Its purpose, according to the Bible and the law, is not to earn a profit. An individual or a for-profit corporation may strive to earn a profit, increase wealth, get a return on their money, etc. and that's fine. But a church, by tax law or Bible, is not established for the purpose of seeking financial returns on their money or increasing wealth. A church's ROI should be souls saved. IMO.

BTJM. I dunno. Maybe we should all just agree to disagree. Nobody's making any new revelatory points and nobody's mind is changing. *shrug*

[funkStrat_97]

Methinks dem' nay-sayers be missin' da' point.  Investing in stocks is not an act of irresponsibility or recklessness.  The stock market may be (in some cases) the best course of action to achieve financial goals.  For individuals, things such as saving for retirement or paying for college are usually accomplished by investing carefully.  An organization such as a church can also accomplish long-term financial plans including retirement for staff and clergy and perhaps even setting up some form of scholarship fund or other means of financial assistance to its members.  Is it always wise to invest?  No, but in the long term, investing can be a very valuable source of money for the kingdom of God.  There is no guarantee that the market will treat you kindly, but it pays to receive wise council with regards to financial planning.  When you invest in a company, you become an owner.  As an owner, you benefit when the company does good.  OTOH; you suffer loss when the company isn't doing so well.  If you can show me where the Bible says that Christians should not own businesses, then by extension, churches shouldn't invest in the stock market.  Don't let fear keep you out of the market, but make the decison wisely based on facts.

[LaylaMonroe]

But I don't think this is problem is a lack of focus on ministry, all of this is a part of ministry.  To me what is taking away from the focus is the church's "By any means necessary" approach to getting people to come.  Biblically, I just don't see where any gimmicks or sideshows were needed to attract people to Christ.  I think they are all diversions to keep people from noticing the fact that the church is losing or in some cases has lost the demonstration of the power of God, and any reverence for God and the things God deems sacred, honorable, and righteous. 

I think that this particular mode of bringing revenue is not so much at fault as the actual sin the church condones and even promotes...

I typed an answer, but it really is starting to stray further and further away from the original topic, so I deleted it. I don't disagree with you on this, but I do believe based on what I've seen that many of these churches DO lose focus on ministry and strive to build the biggest, brightest, shiniest, tallest, most square-footage, most attractive edifice they can build... and a lot of it has to do with ego and a drive for success, not soul-saving.

But that really might be another thread altogether.

[LaylaMonroe]

Methinks dem' nay-sayers be missin' da' point.  Investing in stocks is not an act of irresponsibility or recklessness.  The stock market may be (in some cases) the best course of action to achieve financial goals.  For individuals, things such as saving for retirement or paying for college are usually accomplished by investing carefully.  An organization such as a church can also accomplish long-term financial plans including retirement for staff and clergy and perhaps even setting up some form of scholarship fund or other means of financial assistance to its members.  Is it always wise to invest?  No, but in the long term, investing can be a very valuable source of money for the kingdom of God.  There is no guarantee that the market will treat you kindly, but it pays to receive wise council with regards to financial planning.  When you invest in a company, you become an owner.  As an owner, you benefit when the company does good.  OTOH; you suffer loss when the company isn't doing so well.  If you can show me where the Bible says that Christians should not own businesses, then by extension, churches shouldn't invest in the stock market.  Don't let fear keep you out of the market, but make the decison wisely based on facts.

I kinda don't like to hear that... what makes you think we "naysayers" are missing a point? I get your point. You want me to reiterate it? I can read. I can comprehend. I haven't missed any points in this thread. It's not the same as gambling. It's not a sin. It's not reckless or irresponsible. It helps build wealth, which could help advance the kingdom. It's a valuable source of income. It can enlarge your territory. You can do more ministry. The Bible refers to investing in the Parable of the Talents...

So what point is being missed?

Is it possible that a person can hear everything you're saying and still disagree?

That's the part I don't like about debating an issue on LGM. Not @ you personally, FS, but I just really hate it when people assume that because you disagree, you must not get it.  Shoot, having dedicated my whole life to studying church administration and finance, having heard the input of one saved, finance expert on LGM and a few others outside of LGM, I could easily say that YOU guys don't get it.  But I wouldn't because I know you hear what I'm saying, and choose to disagree. And I think that's okay.

[LaylaMonroe]

Yes! I agree. My church owns our church free and clear, and we also own all of the house on the block. They are used for different purposes like additional classrooms, the daycare center and the school. I think that its a wonderful thing.

I think that's a much more reasonable and appropriate approach to investing (for a church).

[nessalynn77]

I think the church loses either way.  If you're small and don't do more because tithes and offering won't support it, you're criticized for being small and not having what others have.  If you try to find other ways to generate revenue so your ministry can have some necessary things to grow (basically investing in the growth of your church) then people criticize that and say you should've just stayed within the budget of what you could do with the tithes and offering.  I say BAH! to all of that.  Pray and seek God and if he gives you a way to generate the funds you need to get your ministry going, then DO IT!  People will attend and support nicer churches and then try to keep you in a rut.

[nessalynn77]

I typed an answer, but it really is starting to stray further and further away from the original topic, so I deleted it. I don't disagree with you on this, but I do believe based on what I've seen that many of these churches DO lose focus on ministry and strive to build the biggest, brightest, shiniest, tallest, most square-footage, most attractive edifice they can build... and a lot of it has to do with ego and a drive for success, not soul-saving.

But that really might be another thread altogether.

But to me that has more to do with what one does with the money than how they go about raising it.  I have a hard time believing that 30 min offerings complete with infomercial stories of how God will bless you are okay, but investing is not.  That's not a throw-off, that's just how I feel.

[betnich]

I think there is a difference between Christians and the Church when it comes to money and investing.
Here in the US most ministries are set up as non-profit organizations, with tax breaks, etc. afforded by the government. Thus there are limits imposed on what they can do politically and monetarily - and they need to be careful in the sight of God and the IRS. I know these rules get bent and broken, but Lord knows there are enough scandals in the church, and the temptations of greed and corruption are always there.

I have no problem with a minister as a private person setting up an IRA, investment or savings account. But if a church is saving for something like a building fund IMO it should be put in savings or a very conservative investment fund...