State of the Church: Where do we go from here?

[phbrown]

Nessa,

How do you prepare people to step down from leadership positions?

And a follow up

What should an elder person do after they step down and the young person in their place makes a stupid mistake?

[LaylaMonroe]

I'm sorry. I re-read it and can see how it is confusing. Yes, my disdain is toward the general church and my church does indeed fall into that category. I just meant that to clarify that my frustration is not a result of anything that occurred at my church; it is a result of the state of THE Church in general.

As for the statement about being "as passionate as I was before the blackout," I actually meant something totally different, but I see now how it came across and I'd rather not even bother correcting it.

I hope that helps.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say this: my frustration with the church, my disdain for the church, my feelings about how very far we are from what God designed for us to be - none of that has anything at all to do with satan or his agenda. I have not been deceived or tricked. I don't claim to be "enlightened" above anyone else's enlightenment, and I don't claim to know what God prefers, other than what is clearly stated in His Word. He prefers love, holiness, order, peace, meekness, temperance, integrity, generosity, truth... other than that, I don't really say much about what He prefers. I have never claimed to have "the answer" or that I have "the revelation."

Those types of assertions (if I read that correctly) are exactly why so many don't bother trying to be a part of the change that is so desperately needed.

[nessalynn77]

Nessa,

How do you prepare people to step down from leadership positions?

And a follow up

What should an elder person do after they step down and the young person in their place makes a stupid mistake?

Not sure I get what you're asking.  Is the person stepping down doing so voluntarily?  Is he/she being led to move elsewhere in ministry, leaving the church, leaving town?  Or is he like being replaced by the choice of those in leadership and not his own?

I'm guessing by the follow-up that the person is still serving in some capacity maybe the position was just for a term?

I think I have a partial answer for the second one.  If the mistake is one in actually performing the duties of that position, I think you have to help the person without taking it back over.  Hopefully, you still have a good working relationship, and having seen you do the job, they already respect your experience of having been where they're trying to go.  I think it would be natural for them to come to you with the challenges and road blocks they encounter along the way, at which time you could work through it with them, offering advice and helping brainstorm possible solutions (I imagine you are REALLY good at that). 

If the mistake was more character-related, I'd imagine your ministry would be more of restoration in helping the person to get back on track and challenging/encouraging them to go forward and use the mistake as a point of reference of where they do not want to fall again.

That's just my opinion...

[phbrown]

Not sure I get what you're asking.  Is the person stepping down doing so voluntarily?  Is he/she being led to move elsewhere in ministry, leaving the church, leaving town?  Or is he like being replaced by the choice of those in leadership and not his own?

I'm guessing by the follow-up that the person is still serving in some capacity maybe the position was just for a term?

I think I have a partial answer for the second one.  If the mistake is one in actually performing the duties of that position, I think you have to help the person without taking it back over.  Hopefully, you still have a good working relationship, and having seen you do the job, they already respect your experience of having been where they're trying to go.  I think it would be natural for them to come to you with the challenges and road blocks they encounter along the way, at which time you could work through it with them, offering advice and helping brainstorm possible solutions (I imagine you are REALLY good at that). 

If the mistake was more character-related, I'd imagine your ministry would be more of restoration in helping the person to get back on track and challenging/encouraging them to go forward and use the mistake as a point of reference of where they do not want to fall again.

That's just my opinion...

Sorry I meant in relation to old age. Especially how old age tends to directly coorelate with traditional Ideas and how young people are normally more willing to be progressive.


So for example lets say you had a piano player that was 120 years old (i'm exaggerating on purpose) who was still moving around like he was only 75. He has been the piano player for the last 70 years. As such they have been doing things the same way for the last 70 years.

Nessa would you suggest any actions be taken to prepare this piano player to step down?

[nessalynn77]

Oky doke. 

I'm really looking for real answers, so it's still open to anyone who has a take.  LaRue's comment sparked my bringing up the discussion, but of course she's not the only person I've encountered with thoughts along these lines.  I don't want to be taken the wrong way, so I'd like to say that I am genuinely interested in finding out the root of this particular issue in the church, so I will state my opinions and want you to state yours.  I will ask questions and I welcome questions.  I in no way claim to know the answers, nor am I classifying anyone as anything other than a child of God led by the spirit of God.  Please don't take it that way.  I guess it's hard to find a jaded person open to discussing what jaded them, as that's pretty much the definition of jaded. 

[nessalynn77]

Sorry I meant in relation to old age. Especially how old age tends to directly coorelate with traditional Ideas and how young people are normally more willing to be progressive.


So for example lets say you had a piano player that was 120 years old (i'm exaggerating on purpose) who was still moving around like he was only 75. He has been the piano player for the last 70 years. As such they have been doing things the same way for the last 70 years.

Nessa would you suggest any actions be taken to prepare this piano player to step down?

That's gonna be hard, LOL!  When you've held a position for so long, any move is perceived as you being thrown away, or they no longer need you, etc.

I think mentoring has got to be the way, personally.  If the person who is there is included in mentoring the next generation, it teaches the youngster to have respect and glean wisdom from those who have gone before, and it may teach the "old dog" some new tricks as well, lol.

Of course, none of this may work with the grouchy type who doesn't want to move and doesn't want to work with anyone else.  Prayerfully, they will come around with the right approach.

[blyempowered]

Where do we go from here? Here are my solutions:

Btw I won't rehash problems because that's been covered well enough.

1. Get rid of the celebrity mindset that has invaded the church. The Church needs to stop viewing pastors and major leaders in the church as charismatic and a celebrity. Church leaders should NEVER be seen as stars. Jesus Christ is the true star! We've placed leaders on a pedestal and it's time to take them down. However we should still respect our leaders. But the word of the leader should never been seen as infallable.....NEVER! Btw, I do believe the pastor should be respected but NEVER worshipped!

2. Have more OPEN discussions about these issues. As stated earlier, there are many people who are disgruntled about the church. Why can't our churches have more honest and frank discussions about these issues AND what can be done to improve issues? Panel discussions, even sermons just featuring discussions. And yes, critically questioning some of our practices SHOULD be in order!

3. Start preaching Christ! In America, we have allowed the American philosophy of life to infiltrate the church to where coming to church is mostly about me, myself and I and not being empowered to shine the light of Christ once church is over. I do not have a problem with preaching empowerment, encouragement, etc., but how can we continue to preach this, shout, dance, etc, yet people still not see Christ in us once we leave (or even while we're there). What is the use of continuing this Sunday morning ritual if people will live whatever way they choose once leaving the building?

4. Consider de-emphasizing Sunday morning and overemphasizing working in the world. In other words, I think it would be nice to see us consider meeting once-twice a month and spend some Sundays visiting other churches and those such as the prison bound, those in the hospital, homeless, etc.

5. Either view the Acts church as the model church or throw the Bible to the side....period!

6. Get rid of this emphasis on titles. As someone said, the title should emphasis the work we do NOT tell who we are.

7. Relearn the purpose of the church.

8. Start focusing on the issues that matter. Does it matter if the choir wears blue or red? Does it matter if we have praise & worship or devotional service? What matters the most is preaching Christ, empowering each other to make a difference in the world and being the best person that God would have us to be.


Btw I must ask: is this an indictment on the black church? American church? Universal (worldwide) Body of Christ? I ask this because I believe we have more issues here in America (as far as the church) because there's a constant struggle between American values (gratification, personal achievement, conformity, etc) and the values of Jesus/the Bible (community, sacrifice, authenticity, etc).


BTJM 

[LaylaMonroe]

Great solutions, Churchy, but how do you propose carrying them out? In other words, what are the PRACTICAL solutions? You say to get rid of the emphasis on titles. How do you propose that should be done throughout the church? You say a solution is to get rid of the celebrity mindset. How do you propose we do that?

Again, these are great solutions, but it's easy to say what needs to be done. It's another story altogether to say HOW it will get done.

[blyempowered]

Great solutions, Churchy, but how do you propose carrying them out? In other words, what are the PRACTICAL solutions? You say to get rid of the emphasis on titles. How do you propose that should be done throughout the church? You say a solution is to get rid of the celebrity mindset. How do you propose we do that?

Again, these are great solutions, but it's easy to say what needs to be done. It's another story altogether to say HOW it will get done.

Good questions. I think it has to start with our teaching. A lot of what we do is based on what we're taught. And in my opinion, a lot of people go by what the pastor teaches and don't question it or critically evaluate it. We also must encourage people to read the bible about the Acts church and really see if what we do now is even comparative to the Acts church.

As far as celebrity mindset, our leaders have to practice Christ-like humility and be Christ-like in practice. Even though Jesus was the main attraction, he was humble enough to walk on the Earth like us. How can leaders call themselves Christ-like yet not be approachable to the people they serve? I think we need a revival in servant leadership. Again, I go back to teaching.

With titles, we must teach the people that our titles tell what we do. We must teach that titles is not about self-value, entitlement, etc., but about describing our work. If the work is not lined up with the title, the title (by some type of leader) needs to be taken away.

And (I say this as someone considering preaching/pastoral ministry) I think we need to make it much harder to be licensed to preach and ordained to pastor in God's church. I believe that people wanting to be pastor should prove to God (and maybe to others) that they will walk in the character of Christ. There must be a heavy accountability system.

[nessalynn77]

You talkin' good churchy.  I agree that your solutions need steps that can be taken, but that's the more difficult part.  I think just getting the church including people on all sides to come to the table and discuss this is a GIANT first step.

That said, I'm thinkin' it's all gonna come down to love.  If we love one another, we will hash it out until we get it right.  If we love sinners, we will not let our flesh dominate to the point that we lose sight of their souls.  If we love the leaders, we will not allow ourselves to be turned off by their stubborness, but will continue to pursue them in love, and pursue change in our churches.  If we love our kids, then we will teach them the truth and help them to know our God personally, so that he can direct their lives and show them what he has for them to do in his kingdom.   

If that love is lacking, then we'll always be at odds over something.

[chevonee]

To me, this is the local church where you've chosen to worship.  Not saying it's not a good church with good teaching, but this part of it bothers you (and me).  Question is, does it bother you to the point where you do not want to be at a church where the public emphasis (time spent, energy exerted, etc) on this is more than what is given to the weightier matters?  If so, then you have a decision to make.  If this method of gathering reports and licensing ministers bothers you but is not done all the time and not emphasized above the more important things, then you may choose to stay and be in prayer about it, raise your questions, speak to the people in charge about the reasoning behind these methods, etc. 

Denominations don't bother me at all.  In the scripture, Jesus addressed a similar issue with his disciples who said they saw someone spreading the gospel and using Jesus' name who was not "with us", and they forbade him to continue.  Jesus told them not to do that, because if they are not against us, then they are with us.  I think we get too upset when we see someone doing ministry that doesn't come through our accepted avenues or established institutions of becoming a disciple. Sure you may not agree with everything they teach, and may not want to be a member of their congregation, but if they preach Christ and are reaching souls, they are not against us... if they are preaching bad doctrine, the only thing we can do anyway is continue preaching the truth.  People have been going after lies and false doctrine since the OT, surely we can't be put off by the fact that it's still going on... too bad the lies are organized and marching forward while the truth is disgruntled and fighting against itself.

So you're saying that I'm overzealous in my assumption that this part highlighted here should be every church's emphasis? I'm sorry maybe I didn't explain that I have no problem with raising money when we need it...the bible speaks of this so I know thats what has to take place. My problem is it seems that that part out-weighs whether a person is really living right. You shouldn't be able to cover up mess with money. But again maybe I just live in a fantasy world that doesn't exist. Thanks for your response my friend.

[blyempowered]

As a practical solution, I'd also like to propose more of our smaller churches being willing to merge. I'm not talking about denominations (that's another discussion and one we've had many times here on LGM) but small churches. To me, we have too many churches starting over petty issues. Also, too many pastors (I don't want to overgeneralize) start churches so that they can do what they want. It's like we as people want to do what we want and cannot take instruction. I say this realizing that I've fallen in that category many times.

One more thing and Imma take my seat (church cliche'.....LOL!) I think more churches (particularly our black churches) should consider adopting presbyterian style government. That system requires accountability.

[chevonee]

As a practical solution, I'd also like to propose more of our smaller churches being willing to merge. I'm not talking about denominations (that's another discussion and one we've had many times here on LGM) but small churches. To me, we have too many churches starting over petty issues. Also, too many pastors (I don't want to overgeneralize) start churches so that they can do what they want. It's like we as people want to do what we want and cannot take instruction. I say this realizing that I've fallen in that category many times.

One more thing and Imma take my seat (church cliche'.....LOL!) I think more churches (particularly our black churches) should consider adopting presbyterian style government. That system requires accountability.

Dude you are preaching. Because smaller churches that belong to bigger organizations can't possibly carry the load of a bigger church...but they sho try to which is what bothers me the most.

[blyempowered]

Dude you are preaching. Because smaller churches that belong to bigger organizations can't possibly carry the load of a bigger church...but they sho try to which is what bothers me the most.

Right!

Also (see I'm like the preacher that has 20 closings...haha!) LET'S END THE SEED OFFERINGS AND MONEY LINES!!!#thatisall

[nessalynn77]

So you're saying that I'm overzealous in my assumption that this part highlighted here should be every church's emphasis? I'm sorry maybe I didn't explain that I have no problem with raising money when we need it...the bible speaks of this so I know thats what has to take place. My problem is it seems that that part out-weighs whether a person is really living right. You shouldn't be able to cover up mess with money. But again maybe I just live in a fantasy world that doesn't exist. Thanks for your response my friend.

No.  The part you highlighted, I was just saying that basically should be all of our focus, and if a particular church is doing that, I don't have a problem with them having a "denomination". 

I don't think you live in a fantasy world if you feel that it is wrong for failure to adhere to the Word of God being overlooked because of money.  That is definitely wrong.  I hope that there are avenues in place for these things to be reported and investigated by the church.  But corruption in some form or other has been present in the church as long as the church has been around, so we have to learn to take a stand against wrongdoing, pray for our leaders charged with addressing these issues, not allow them to become our focus, and leave/stay as the Lord leads.

[chevonee]

No.  The part you highlighted, I was just saying that basically should be all of our focus, and if a particular church is doing that, I don't have a problem with them having a "denomination". 

I don't think you live in a fantasy world if you feel that it is wrong for failure to adhere to the Word of God being overlooked because of money.  That is definitely wrong.  I hope that there are avenues in place for these things to be reported and investigated by the church.  But corruption in some form or other has been present in the church as as the church has been around, so we have to learn to take a stand against wrongdoing, pray for our leaders charged with addressing these issues, not allow them to become our focus, and leave/stay as the Lord leads.

Agreed my friend! Thanks again for taking time to splain this to ya sistah... I'm just frustrated to the point of crying over this burden I feel. I guess I should explain also that my husband and I are a part of their family church. They function so well when their not weighted down about trying to scrape up money to pay their dues or what have you. We get more fussing in the sermon than teaching because our Pastor is frustrated with it all too. He just takes it bcuz his father died and left him in charge. So maybe that makes the whole thing somewhat worse. I didn't become a part of this church until 2 years ago when I moved here and before that I was never in a denomination....so this was a rude awakening for me. BIG TImE!!!

[nessalynn77]

Agreed my friend! Thanks again for taking time to splain this to ya sistah... I'm just frustrated to the point of crying over this burden I feel. I guess I should explain also that my husband and I are a part of their family church. They function so well when their not weighted down about trying to scrape up money to pay their dues or what have you. We get more fussing in the sermon than teaching because our Pastor is frustrated with it all too. He just takes it bcuz his father died and left him in charge. So maybe that makes the whole thing somewhat worse. I didn't become a part of this church until 2 years ago when I moved here and before that I was never in a denomination....so this was a rude awakening for me. BIG TImE!!!

Yeah, I hear you.  And a small church in a big organization is a tough thing to be.  I feel bad because people have the right desires and big visions for their local ministry and then sometimes the burden and obligation of the organization slowly oppresses them.  I pray the Lord leads your pastor and leadership, even if they have to make some tough decisions so that they can focus on what they are there to do. 

[chevonee]

Yeah, I hear you.  And a small church in a big organization is a tough thing to be.  I feel bad because people have the right desires and big visions for their local ministry and then sometimes the burden and obligation of the organization slowly oppresses them.  I pray the Lord leads your pastor and leadership, even if they have to make some tough decisions so that they can focus on what they are there to do.

Thanks Nessa..I'm praying too and will keep on til the Lawd help us!!! Seriously!!

[JustBritt]

By far my favorite thread this year.

*sits back down*

[blyempowered]

You talkin' good churchy.  I agree that your solutions need steps that can be taken, but that's the more difficult part.  I think just getting the church including people on all sides to come to the table and discuss this is a GIANT first step.

That said, I'm thinkin' it's all gonna come down to love.  If we love one another, we will hash it out until we get it right.  If we love sinners, we will not let our flesh dominate to the point that we lose sight of their souls.  If we love the leaders, we will not allow ourselves to be turned off by their stubborness, but will continue to pursue them in love, and pursue change in our churches.  If we love our kids, then we will teach them the truth and help them to know our God personally, so that he can direct their lives and show them what he has for them to do in his kingdom.   

If that love is lacking, then we'll always be at odds over something.

Absolutely! It boils down to LOVE!!!