State of the Church: Where do we go from here?

[phbrown]

I messed the last one up let me try again

1. Get rid of the celebrity mindset that has invaded the church. The Church needs to stop viewing pastors and major leaders in the church as charismatic and a celebrity. Church leaders should NEVER be seen as stars. Jesus Christ is the true star! We've placed leaders on a pedestal and it's time to take them down. However we should still respect our leaders. But the word of the leader should never been seen as infallable.....NEVER! Btw, I do believe the pastor should be respected but NEVER worshipped!

While I agree it is important to get rid of the celebrity mindset I do not believe it is possible. Even the iseralites wanted a king and people today will want someone they can look to. As such I feel we should accept that certain positions have more honor than others. As such those positions should be held in higher esteem.

2. Have more OPEN discussions about these issues. As stated earlier, there are many people who are disgruntled about the church. Why can't our churches have more honest and frank discussions about these issues AND what can be done to improve issues? Panel discussions, even sermons just featuring discussions. And yes, critically questioning some of our practices SHOULD be in order!

Because discussions take ffffooooorrrreeeevvvveeerrrrr. (thats forever). Also as a person who has been in leadership positions in various organizations having people critically questioning your choices is tiresome. What eventually happens is panel discussions fall back to voting to come to a consensus on how to proceed. Just for the record there are some instances where voting makes sense. But people will soon be critically questioning why the church pews are orange instead of red.

3. Start preaching Christ! In America, we have allowed the American philosophy of life to infiltrate the church to where coming to church is mostly about me, myself and I and not being empowered to shine the light of Christ once church is over. I do not have a problem with preaching empowerment, encouragement, etc., but how can we continue to preach this, shout, dance, etc, yet people still not see Christ in us once we leave (or even while we're there). What is the use of continuing this Sunday morning ritual if people will live whatever way they choose once leaving the building?

Okay ... so what are you going to preach next sunday? Or the sunday after that? Or you going to preach about Jesus dying on the cross every sunday? The reason we are here today is because in the past that is what happened. Some preachers would only preach about Hell and damnation and how smoking will send you to hell. Thus the next generation responded by preaching hey you can make it. Don't give up your breakthrough is coming. We just need to unite all these small churches and have a kingdom mindset to work on tackling these problems.

Churchy I agree with you, but don't throw out those empowerment sermons they have a place and they are needed.

4. Consider de-emphasizing Sunday morning and overemphasizing working in the world. In other words, I think it would be nice to see us consider meeting once-twice a month and spend some Sundays visiting other churches and those such as the prison bound, those in the hospital, homeless, etc.

At one point in time, people believed you can work your way into heaven or even buy your way in. But the work aspect comes as a result of your faith. A true christian will have a desire to work already. You won't have to tell them that they need to work. Just say hey this is what we are going to do please come out. Just don't be surprise when less then 10% of the people show up.

5. Either view the Acts church as the model church or throw the Bible to the side....period!

Never study the book of acts. It continues to be referenced in this thread by a few people. Could someone list some of the differences? Maybe in a separate thread.

6. Get rid of this emphasis on titles. As someone said, the title should emphasis the work we do NOT tell who we are.

Does that mean you are going to give the title "The determiner of when to remove someone elses title" to someone?

7. Relearn the purpose of the church.

... Matt. 28:19-20?

8. Start focusing on the issues that matter. Does it matter if the choir wears blue or red? Does it matter if we have praise & worship or devotional service? What matters the most is preaching Christ, empowering each other to make a difference in the world and being the best person that God would have us to be.

yes it matters that we were blue, why? cause it looks better.
Yes it matters that we have praise & worship or devotional service. Why cause that was why were made to worship God.

Btw I must ask: is this an indictment on the black church? American church? Universal (worldwide) Body of Christ? I ask this because I believe we have more issues here in America (as far as the church) because there's a constant struggle between American values (gratification, personal achievement, conformity, etc) and the values of Jesus/the Bible (community, sacrifice, authenticity, etc).

This is affecting the churches in America due to our culture.

[blyempowered]

Ill respond when I get home. Good points!

[phbrown]

Good questions. I think it has to start with our teaching. A lot of what we do is based on what we're taught. And in my opinion, a lot of people go by what the pastor teaches and don't question it or critically evaluate it. We also must encourage people to read the bible about the Acts church and really see if what we do now is even comparative to the Acts church.

Teaching takes a long time to bear fruit. If you are okay with that Then so am I. But it will take a generation or two before you start seeing the results of your teaching.

As far as celebrity mindset, our leaders have to practice Christ-like humility and be Christ-like in practice. Even though Jesus was the main attraction, he was humble enough to walk on the Earth like us. How can leaders call themselves Christ-like yet not be approachable to the people they serve? I think we need a revival in servant leadership. Again, I go back to teaching.

I personally never experienced this celebrity mindset problem in a church. Could someone tell me about it? I'm assuming it is like a Pastor saying I am too important to visit the sick in the hospital  or something like that? If so isn't that why in the book of Acts they choose a few select men to do some of the things that they were too busy to do?

With titles, we must teach the people that our titles tell what we do. We must teach that titles is not about self-value, entitlement, etc., but about describing our work. If the work is not lined up with the title, the title (by some type of leader) needs to be taken away.

Who is going to be responsible for taking away this title? This seems like a super important job. What happens when someone starts using this position to get their cousin Pookie to be a bishop somewhere?

And (I say this as someone considering preaching/pastoral ministry) I think we need to make it much harder to be licensed to preach and ordained to pastor in God's church. I believe that people wanting to be pastor should prove to God (and maybe to others) that they will walk in the character of Christ. There must be a heavy accountability system.

Naw, if you are called you are called. Rules only punish those who would abide by them anyway. The people you are trying to keep out will still get in. However as it is written in I Timothy pastors(bishops) should have a good report. I Timothy 3:7. The rules are already in place there is no need for additional rules.

[phbrown]

If that love is lacking, then we'll always be at odds over something.

Amen, however love is one of the hardest emotions to understand (well at least for me)

[phbrown]

As a practical solution, I'd also like to propose more of our smaller churches being willing to merge. I'm not talking about denominations (that's another discussion and one we've had many times here on LGM) but small churches. To me, we have too many churches starting over petty issues. Also, too many pastors (I don't want to overgeneralize) start churches so that they can do what they want. It's like we as people want to do what we want and cannot take instruction. I say this realizing that I've fallen in that category many times.

Naw, Big Organizations can switch gears as fast as a small church. Remember that church you ask prayer for. The one in atlanta which was going to start working on Child Sex Traffickiting. They still had to post it on their website and do a lot of work just to change directions. A small church of only 10-20 members  is just a simple text message or talking after church. Everyone is on one accord. Plus you get way more one on one instruction. There are pros and cons of both large and small churches. Lets not lose our small churches. They have their place.

One more thing and Imma take my seat (church cliche'.....LOL!) I think more churches (particularly our black churches) should consider adopting presbyterian style government. That system requires accountability.

Sounds good to me Lets do it

[LaylaMonroe]

Anybody have anything concrete or do we just spend the next 50 years talking about concepts and impossible, impractical ideas, while sitting content and pretty in our local churches, continuing in the routine and giving the side eye to the people who refuse to conform?

I was telling a pastor-friend of mine this morning that he needs to go visit churches in Jamaica and other low-income countries to experience the very stark differences. I had asked him: If you took out all the fluff, meaningless cliches (I specified meaningless because not all cliches are bad, IMO), opinions, and gimmicks, how long would your Sunday services be? He said "probably an hour, but nobody would come. People don't want that. They want what they're used to. They would just go to the next church that gives them the 'whole experience'."

I believe he was absolutely right.

We want "the whole experience." Which includes a lot of additives and preservatives. We don't really care whether it's good for us as long as it tastes good and feels good. That's really all that matters to us. Doesn't matter what the extra stuff is slowly doing to our body. As long as it's familiar. Comforting. Comfort foods. It's all we know. Some additives are good (like when they put calcium in your orange juice). But when the additives (and preservatives) overpower the substance itself, you have a totally different product (like cucumbers in vinegar). Anyway, we just like what we know... and even if there are elements that we don't like, we still go with the flow because it's all we know and we're comfortable.

I've never really been the type to get comfortable. Part ADD, part personality, part upbringing, part ministry calling... but that's just who I am. And I don't mind one bit.

[LaylaMonroe]

As a practical solution, I'd also like to propose more of our smaller churches being willing to merge. I'm not talking about denominations (that's another discussion and one we've had many times here on LGM) but small churches. To me, we have too many churches starting over petty issues. Also, too many pastors (I don't want to overgeneralize) start churches so that they can do what they want. It's like we as people want to do what we want and cannot take instruction. I say this realizing that I've fallen in that category many times.

One more thing and Imma take my seat (church cliche'.....LOL!) I think more churches (particularly our black churches) should consider adopting presbyterian style government. That system requires accountability.

With all due respect, that's not actually practical at all. How do you propose getting these smaller churches to merge? How do you propose getting black churches to consider adopting presbyterian style government?

[LaylaMonroe]

You talkin' good churchy.  I agree that your solutions need steps that can be taken, but that's the more difficult part.  I think just getting the church including people on all sides to come to the table and discuss this is a GIANT first step.

That said, I'm thinkin' it's all gonna come down to love.  If we love one another, we will hash it out until we get it right.  If we love sinners, we will not let our flesh dominate to the point that we lose sight of their souls.  If we love the leaders, we will not allow ourselves to be turned off by their stubborness, but will continue to pursue them in love, and pursue change in our churches.  If we love our kids, then we will teach them the truth and help them to know our God personally, so that he can direct their lives and show them what he has for them to do in his kingdom.   

If that love is lacking, then we'll always be at odds over something.

I don't agree with that (as a solution), but I don't think I have the mental capacity to explain it now. In short: we can love as much as we want (and I do agree that we always need love and more of it), but it takes more than love to change the state of the church. It takes humility to admit that we are doing this part or that part wrong, it takes faith and trust to eliminate some of the things we do to increase monetary intake, it takes integrity to NOT mistreat and take advantage of people that are easy to mistreat and take advantage of, commitment to the difficult process of change, and first and foremost, it takes acknowledging that there's something that NEEDS to be changed.

Every pastor I hear who talks about the state of the church and what's wrong with the body and all that - always talks about it as though it affects every church in America except his own. Well, if you're going to effect change, you have to start at home. You can't be preaching to YOUR people about what's wrong across the street and in all the other churches in the other 49 states... you can't always preach about what's wrong with your members and your leaders either. Pastors need to take ownership and start with the church in the mirror.

[praizeHim]

Hey LGM!

Thanks LaRue, for asking me to take a look.....but there's absolutely NO WAY  I can read all this now! 

I've glanced at some of the comments, and I have to agree that the church model as we know it now....is FLAWED and NOT what God designed for BUILDING HIS KINGDOM.

I'll try and come back later.....

[LaylaMonroe]

You're welcome, sis. It is so closely related to your "church membership" thread from FB (which I still haven't finished reading, btw... lol), I figured you'd be interested in the thoughts that seem to permeate the body. If you get around to it, do so, if not... it's honestly nothing you haven't heard before, I'm sure.

[blyempowered]

1. While I agree it is important to get rid of the celebrity mindset I do not believe it is possible. Even the iseralites wanted a king and people today will want someone they can look to. As such I feel we should accept that certain positions have more honor than others. As such those positions should be held in higher esteem.

2. Because discussions take ffffooooorrrreeeevvvveeerrrrr. (thats forever). Also as a person who has been in leadership positions in various organizations having people critically questioning your choices is tiresome. What eventually happens is panel discussions fall back to voting to come to a consensus on how to proceed. Just for the record there are some instances where voting makes sense. But people will soon be critically questioning why the church pews are orange instead of red.

3. Okay ... so what are you going to preach next sunday? Or the sunday after that? Or you going to preach about Jesus dying on the cross every sunday? The reason we are here today is because in the past that is what happened. Some preachers would only preach about Hell and damnation and how smoking will send you to hell. Thus the next generation responded by preaching hey you can make it. Don't give up your breakthrough is coming. We just need to unite all these small churches and have a kingdom mindset to work on tackling these problems.

Churchy I agree with you, but don't throw out those empowerment sermons they have a place and they are needed.
 At one point in time, people believed you can work your way into heaven or even buy your way in. But the work aspect comes as a result of your faith. A true christian will have a desire to work already. You won't have to tell them that they need to work. Just say hey this is what we are going to do please come out. Just don't be surprise when less then 10% of the people show up.
 4. Never study the book of acts. It continues to be referenced in this thread by a few people. Could someone list some of the differences? Maybe in a separate thread.
 Does that mean you are going to give the title "The determiner of when to remove someone elses title" to someone? ... 

5. Matt. 28:19-20?

6.yes it matters that we were blue, why? cause it looks better.
Yes it matters that we have praise & worship or devotional service. Why cause that was why were made to worship God.

7. This is affecting the churches in America due to our culture.

Ok....whew! Let me try to respond:

1. I see your point. Let me explain: in far too many churches, the pastor is the make-or-break point of the church. Once a certain pastor leaves, resigns, etc., the church falls because many only came to the church because of the pastor. What should draw people to a church should not be solely the pastor but the entire aspect of the church. Again, the pastor should not be worshipped but respected. Plus, does God view certain church positions as more important than others? That's a question I'm throwing out.

2. I'm not necessarily talking about voting. I'm talking about pastors and laity having honest discussions on these issues and ending the panel discussions with action points (the "what are we going to do moving forward" points).

3. I'm not anti-empowerment/encouragement preaching. I'm pro-balance. I'm not arguing that we get rid of empowerment/encouragement preaching. I'm saying we need a balance. Some days we need to hear sermons on gossiping, love, forgiveness, patience, compassion, etc and some days we do need a message that empowers us to go on. I'm just arguing for balance.

4. I say read the first 5 (correct me if I'm wrong) chapters of Acts that shows the Acts church and critical principles, but especially Acts 2:42-27.

5. I think Matthew 28:19-20 is a huge part of the purpose of the church but I would also point again to Acts 2:42-47 and also Ephesians 4:11-12.

6. Do you think God has a preference (let's just look at this issue) whether He desires praise & worship or devotional service? I will give you this, I do think an argument can be made for praise & worship being more of a authentic representation of worship HOWEVER some things are based on tradition, church culture, etc. Also I do NOT believe God will send us to hell because we chose to wear green or red at a choir anniversary. To me, it's petty, irrelevant and doesn't matter in the big picture.

7. I agree with you.

[phbrown]

Okay, I have a radical solution (which I haven't fully thought through)

What if churches gave up money?


Cons:
Churches will have to give up property and paying musicans


Pros:
No one wants to be at a broke church thus you get rid of celebrities.

[blyempowered]

Okay, I have a radical solution (which I haven't fully thought through)

What if churches gave up money?


Cons:
Churches will have to give up property and paying musicans


Pros:
No one wants to be at a broke church thus you get rid of celebrities.

Hmmm.

On a random note (kind of related to this post phbrown) I listened to this program called church folk revolution radio (Praize knows about this) and some of it is radical but they talk about the state of the church. If anyone is interested in link to radio program, let me know. But the host was arguing that musicians and pastors should NOT get paid and that what they do on Sunday should be service to the Lord. I found that very interesting and yes I know we've had this debate on LGM for years if musicians should get paid....LOL!

[blyempowered]

Naw, Big Organizations can switch gears as fast as a small church. Remember that church you ask prayer for. The one in atlanta which was going to start working on Child Sex Traffickiting. They still had to post it on their website and do a lot of work just to change directions. A small church of only 10-20 members  is just a simple text message or talking after church. Everyone is on one accord. Plus you get way more one on one instruction. There are pros and cons of both large and small churches. Lets not lose our small churches. They have their place.

Absolutely BUT I am concerned about the motives for many churches starting. You're right, small churches still have their place, but are people starting churches to fulfill a need in the community or for institutional gratification?

[LaylaMonroe]

1. I see your point. Let me explain: in far too many churches, the pastor is the make-or-break point of the church. Once a certain pastor leaves, resigns, etc., the church falls because many only came to the church because of the pastor. What should draw people to a church should not be solely the pastor but the entire aspect of the church. Again, the pastor should not be worshipped but respected. Plus, does God view certain church positions as more important than others? That's a question I'm throwing out.

I just wrote the draft for a blog on that very subject... working on editing it now to make it shorter. Me and my 2000 word articles. 

OAN: I went to a non-denom church a few weeks ago (and I happen to LOVE this church's worship service and I love the pastor, who is an acquaintance of mine). So when the lady gets up to exhort and expedite, she gave honor to the pastor and everyone stood and cheered and clapped... I mean, I grew up in the Black, Apostolic church, so I'm quite accustomed to that, but I had never seen that much enthusiasm before. They cheered like Barack Obama or the late Michael Jackson had just come on stage... it was wild. I smiled, though. It was fine by me.

Then, the PT got up to sing a song (I think their choir was either sat down or maybe the director wasn't there or something... I dunno, but he called the PT to come sing). So the entire church (save 5 or 6 people) laid back and chilled as though they were being entertained... the P&W leader then starts exhorting and practically begging them to stand up and get into the song and "come on and worship Him" and all the other common phrases... you couldn't pay those people to stand up for Jesus. But they didn't hesitate to stand up for Apostle So-and-So.

You think that's uncommon? No way. Happens allllllllll the time. We got it mad twisted.

Personally, as much as I love my pastor and first lady, I really don't agree with honoring them during the service anyway. The worship service is about Jesus, not about people. Why would they get special recognition for showing up to service? If we're honoring them for their selfless leadership and sacrifices, we don't need to do that in the middle of a worship service called for the express purpose of worshiping Jesus. I say just announce/introduce him and let the people clap or whatever as he's taking the mic... if that's not enough, put a seed in his hand or write a note or whatever. And when you have their "appreciation service" you can holler and scream and clap and run and all that stuff... thank God for our pastors. I truly do thank God for them. The Bible implies we can't even hear without our pastors. But we need to re-shift the focus back from them to God.

Yeah, I know that's a little church extremist for some, but that's my opinion. It always starts with a little seed that grows wildly over time... you don't even see it growing, you just look back one day and realize you have a tree in the middle of your living room.

[blyempowered]

I just wrote the draft for a blog on that very subject... working on editing it now to make it shorter. Me and my 2000 word articles. 

OAN: I went to a non-denom church a few weeks ago (and I happen to LOVE this church's worship service and I love the pastor, who is an acquaintance of mine). So when the lady gets up to exhort and expedite, she gave honor to the pastor and everyone stood and cheered and clapped... I mean, I grew up in the Black, Apostolic church, so I'm quite accustomed to that, but I had never seen that much enthusiasm before. They cheered like Barack Obama or the late Michael Jackson had just come on stage... it was wild. I smiled, though. It was fine by me.

Then, the PT got up to sing a song (I think their choir was either sat down or maybe the director wasn't there or something... I dunno, but he called the PT to come sing). So the entire church (save 5 or 6 people) laid back and chilled as though they were being entertained... the P&W leader then starts exhorting and practically begging them to stand up and get into the song and "come on and worship Him" and all the other common phrases... you couldn't pay those people to stand up for Jesus. But they didn't hesitate to stand up for Apostle So-and-So.

You think that's uncommon? No way. Happens allllllllll the time. We got it mad twisted.

Personally, as much as I love my pastor and first lady, I really don't agree with honoring them during the service anyway. The worship service is about Jesus, not about people. Why would they get special recognition for showing up to service? If we're honoring them for their selfless leadership and sacrifices, we don't need to do that in the middle of a worship service called for the express purpose of worshiping Jesus. I say just announce/introduce him and let the people clap or whatever as he's taking the mic... if that's not enough, put a seed in his hand or write a note or whatever. And when you have their "appreciation service" you can holler and scream and clap and run and all that stuff... thank God for our pastors. I truly do thank God for them. The Bible implies we can't even hear without our pastors. But we need to re-shift the focus back from them to God.

Yeah, I know that's a little church extremist for some, but that's my opinion. It always starts with a little seed that grows wildly over time... you don't even see it growing, you just look back one day and realize you have a tree in the middle of your living room.

I'm with you! If I ever become a pastor of any sort, I NEVER want the program to be about me. I want God to receive ALL glory!!!

[LaylaMonroe]

Yeah, Churchy, I don't know a single pastor that wouldn't say the same thing. They all say that. (I'm not saying you're not being truthful. What I'm saying is that nobody will say "I want the service to be about me. I want some of the glory myself." In fact, most pastors will say that they don't care to be acknowledged and don't want the fanfare, etc... Idk. They say they don't want it, but they sure don't stop the saints from giving it to them). And of course there's the "there's nothing wrong with honoring the mand of God. The Bible says... worthy of double honor... etc. etc..." so this will probably never change, either.

[blyempowered]

Yeah, Churchy, I don't know a single pastor that wouldn't say the same thing. They all say that. (I'm not saying you're not being truthful. What I'm saying is that nobody will say "I want the service to be about me. I want some of the glory myself." In fact, most pastors will say that they don't care to be acknowledged and don't want the fanfare, etc... Idk. They say they don't want it, but they sure don't stop the saints from giving it to them). And of course there's the "there's nothing wrong with honoring the mand of God. The Bible says... worthy of double honor... etc. etc..." so this will probably never change, either.

You mean the mand of Gawd??.....LOL!!!

[LaylaMonroe]

Hmmm. (Maybe Malthumb or U13 can answer this? Or Docjohn?? I dunno) I wonder if the Lutheran or Presbyterian (or Episcopal or Catholic) churches do the whole "honoring the mand of Gawd" thing or if it's mostly charismatic churches who do that. If so, why?

On a random note (kind of related to this post phbrown) I listened to this program called church folk revolution radio (Praize knows about this) and some of it is radical but they talk about the state of the church.

Never heard of it. When is it on?

That might be the answer to Nessa's original question. Sounds like somebody is actually trying to do something about it.

[blyempowered]

1. Hmmm. (Maybe Malthumb or U13 can answer this? Or Docjohn?? I dunno) I wonder if the Lutheran or Presbyterian (or Episcopal or Catholic) churches do the whole "honoring the mand of Gawd" thing or if it's mostly charismatic churches who do that. If so, why?

2. Never heard of it. When is it on?

That might be the answer to Nessa's original question. Sounds like somebody is actually trying to do something about it.

1. That would be interesting to find out. The closest thing I would say is maybe the Catholic church and how they see the Pope. Maybe the Episcopal tradition with the Bishops. Idk, but I'm interested to find out too.

2. Not sure but here's the link: http://www.churchfolkradio.com/Past-Radio-Shows.html Listen to the past episodes. I've listened to one on church cliches' and musicians getting paid. There are a LOT of past programs. SN: The episodes are about 2 hours (give or take a few minutes).