So during dinner on Thanksgiving, this Jehovah's Witness............

[LaylaMonroe]

You will always see more unity behind a false doctrine than you will the truth.  I believe it's because the enemy is not really expending a lot of energy fighting anything that isn't going to lead to life anyway.

So does that mean that you think the reason the Christian church is so disjointed is that the devil is fighting us?

[nessalynn77]

So does that mean that you think the reason the Christian church is so disjointed is that the devil is fighting us?

Well, I'd say that a lot of the division is due to the deception that has crept into the church of the living God, causing many to be deceived and fragment the body of Christ. 

However, I also think that there's no need to fight with someone who is preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ even if they are not "with" you in the sense that you may disagree on the finer points of christianity.  Jesus addressed that once with his disciples. It's not necessarily a bad thing.  If the gospel is being preached, then leave them alone.  The church has an obsession with wanting everyone to be in the same place.  We don't have to be the same denomination or affiliation, as long as we follow after Christ.  He'll set the rest in order when he comes back for us.

For all I know the storefront has ministered to and planted or watered just as many folks as the televangelist, and God is pleased with them where they are, while we are looking at them saying they need to join the megachurch up the street and stop dividing the church.  Unity is not location, and it doesn't oppose diversity, though it may seem to on the surface.

[LaylaMonroe]

Well, I'd say that a lot of the division is due to the deception that has crept into the church of the living God, causing many to be deceived and fragment the body of Christ. 

However, I also think that there's no need to fight with someone who is preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ even if they are not "with" you in the sense that you may disagree on the finer points of christianity.  Jesus addressed that once with his disciples, it's not necessarily a bad thing, if the gospel is being preached, then leave them alone.  The church has an obsession with wanting everyone to be in the same place.  We don't have to be the same denomination or affiliation, as long as we follow after Christ.  He'll set the rest in order when he comes back for us.

For all I know the storefront has ministered to and planted or watered just as many folks as the televangelist, and God is pleased with them where they are, while we are looking at them saying they need to join the megachurch up the street and stop dividing the church.  Unity is not location, and it doesn't oppose diversity, though it may seem to on the surface.

Yeah, I agree that we don't all have to be in the same "location," and I don't think there's anything wrong with storefront churches - in principle.

I do, however, think there's something to be said about a body of believers who purport to have the truth, yet that "truth" contains so many opposing "truths."

That's all I'm saying...

Line by line, I agree completely with you.  I just don't think the reason we're so divided as a body is because the devil is after us because we have the truth.  And I don't believe it's "ok" that we're so divided as a body.

As I often say, at the end of the day, somebody is gonna be right and somebody is gonna be wrong.  Hopefully, it'll be on one of the less important debates.

[nessalynn77]

Yeah, I agree that we don't all have to be in the same "location," and I don't think there's anything wrong with storefront churches - in principle.

I do, however, think there's something to be said about a body of believers who purport to have the truth, yet that "truth" contains so many opposing "truths."

That's all I'm saying...

Line by line, I agree completely with you.  I just don't think the reason we're so divided as a body is because the devil is after us because we have the truth.  And I don't believe it's "ok" that we're so divided as a body.

As I often say, at the end of the day, somebody is gonna be right and somebody is gonna be wrong.  Hopefully, it'll be on one of the less important debates.

  I get what you're saying, but IMO, it has to be okay, because otherwise the result is a bunch of bickering.  The only one who's mind I can change is my own, so I can only diligently seek God and have peace about what I believe.  To argue and try to externally turn someone else around to my way of thinking is futile.  So you have every side thinking they're right and the other is wrong, to me that's not time well spent, rather each should focus on searching out what the will of God is for them, and doing that.  That should keep everyone occupied until Jesus comes, lol!

[LaylaMonroe]

  I get what you're saying, but IMO, it has to be okay, because otherwise the result is a bunch of bickering.  The only one who's mind I can change is my own, so I can only diligently seek God and have peace about what I believe.  To argue and try to externally turn someone else around to my way of thinking is futile.  So you have every side thinking they're right and the other is wrong, to me that's not time well spent, rather each should focus on searching out what the will of God is for them, and doing that.  That should keep everyone occupied until Jesus comes, lol!

Gotcha.

And yeah, you already know I totally agree that all that arguing and bickering about doctrine is just a waste of time.

[Fingers!]

I always thought that the 7 church letters from Jesus in Revelation was addressing that issue that the two of you are talking about.  The letters were for the church of that time, yet, a prophecy of the church in the last day.  So, Jesus already described HIS church as NOT being totally on one accord.  Then He tells each group what?s needed on their part to get them straight, or else... 

So, I recognize the denomination differences but I don?t stress over it.  I also realize that most people believe that those letters were for THAT time period, alone, and don?t apply today.  And I don?t stress or loose sleep over that either.

[Fingers!]

Oh, one more thing...  Of those 7 letters, I don't see Jws in there, meaning that I don't see them as a denomination of Jesus' church. 

[nessalynn77]

I always thought that the 7 church letters from Jesus in Revelation was addressing that issue that the two of you are talking about.  The letters were for the church of that time, yet, a prophecy of the church in the last day.  So, Jesus already described HIS church as NOT being totally on one accord.  Then He tells each group what?s needed on their part to get them straight, or else... 

So, I recognize the denomination differences but I don?t stress over it.  I also realize that most people believe that those letters were for THAT time period, alone, and don?t apply today.  And I don?t stress or loose sleep over that either.

Oh, I totally believe they are for today, or they would not have been given to John as part of the end time book.  They are so valuable for the church today, and you can even apply a lot of the wisdom in those letters on an individual level. 

[LaylaMonroe]

Oh, I totally believe they are for today, or they would not have been given to John as part of the end time book.  They are so valuable for the church today, and you can even apply a lot of the wisdom in those letters on an individual level. 

I totally agree with that.

And Fingers, I wouldn't make reference to the fact that the JWs aren't mentioned in Revelations.  Which modern day sect is?

[LaylaMonroe]

I was talking to someone about this one time.  Although I don't believe what JW's and Mormons preach, I give them credit for getting out and witnessing.  I always see two white boys dressed like ushers on their bikes with their bookbags and helmets riding around trying to pass out literature.

When I was younger, we used to go out and pass out tracts every Sabbath afternoon after church. 

This brings me to one of my favorite verses:

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" (1 Pet. 3:15)

Do we know why we believe what we believe?  Can we prove it using sound biblical tests?  Or can we just say "I don't want to talk to you."  "I'm not interested."  "Those Jehovah's Witnesses (Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, etc...) are way off."  Do we know where they miss the mark biblically? 

This is one of my favorite youtube clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_QmNx-Eb4U
This guy knows his bible.  Do we as Christians still take time out to memorize scripture?  Or do we just quote the most common cliches from gospel music? 

Here's another clip.  A black guy was approached by two white mormons on bike at a fast food joint.  And he began to tear them apart.  It was one of the most unchristlike like things I had ever seen.  I did not see the spirit of Christ in his witness.  It seems as if his motives were more so to just prove them wrong and belittle them than to bring them to the light of truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2btjXHRPJg

I'm just getting the opportunity to view this clip.  I only looked at the first one, and I'm really impressed.

To answer one of your questions, yes, some of us do still memorize scripture this way.  My pastor is a walking Bible.  I've never known any one who knows as many scriptures by heart, and can tell you exactly where to find them.  I thought I knew the Bible well until I met him.  He knows scriptures I've never heard of.  So of course, he compels the clergy of our church to do the same.  He considers it a requirement and most of us are very knowledgeable in that area.

One of the ministers at my church is a walking Bible.  I would call her before I'd use Bible Gateway.

[phbrown]

bump for U13