Pastors Rift Over TD Jakes Invitation.

[SirTJ]

I came across this article, and it kind of left me tense. Basically, James MacDonald, a prominent pastor in the 'white' community who I'm sure some of you have heard of, hosts an event called "The Elephant Room". It's where Pastors get together and have what's supposed to be a no-holds-barred discussion on Christendom. This year, he invited Bishop T.D. Jakes, which caused a great deal of controversy. Most in his circle label Jakes a 'heretic'. MacDonald even said he lost friends over the ordeal. This article details one of the pastors, Voddie Baucham, who turned down his invitation because of Jakes' presence.

Here are some things said in the article that threw me:

"...his main issue was with being a part of a conference that welcomed Jakes as a "brother."

The Southern Baptist minister also claimed that Jakes' influence in the Dallas Metroplex has been "negative, at best" and that The Potter's House bishop is an example of "the worst the black church has to offer."

"He has brought a charismatic, theatrical, excessive, 'Word of Faith' flavor to the city that permeates many churches (especially black churches)," Baucham elaborated, saying that he has seen firsthand the influence Jakes has had on Texas communities.

"Even if Jakes had come out with a statement on the doctrine of the Trinity, it would not have done anything to change the fact that he preaches 'another gospel.' (Gal 1:8–9) Having studied the 'Word of Faith' movement, and seen the devastation it leaves in its wake, I was disinclined to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the man who has been this country's most popular purveyor of this heresy in the past two decades," the pastor continued.

It should also be noted that this guy, Bauchum, is pastor of a church in Texas. I hinted a bit of envy in some of his quotes, especially the one about seeing first hand the influence Jakes has had on Texas communities. And Bishop Jakes is the "worst the black church has to offer?" Seriously? (to clarify, Voddie is not white, he's black).

I don't know. It just kind of left me peeved. Bishop Jakes responded to the critics that call him a 'heresy', however. Here's a link to both articles:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/voddie-baucham-reveals-rift-with-james-macdonald-due-to-td-jakes-heresy-68276/

http://www.christianpost.com/news/td-jakes-breaks-down-the-trinity-addresses-being-called-a-heretic-67972/

[LaylaMonroe]

Bishop Jakes, Noel Jones, and others who believe in Oneness doctrine, have been called heretics for as long as I can remember.

I was told recently (and I posted a status inspired by it) by a Pastor who was a FBF that I was not his sister and that he would never consider me a Christian as long as I call myself Apostolic. They definitely don't consider Bishop Jakes or Jones to be "brothers." Many trinitarian scholars or wannabe scholars believe that the oneness theology is heretical. This "news" doesn't surprise me even a little bit. That same FBF, btw, was saying some really mean and offensive things about this non-denominational guy and I interjected with the proverb "a brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city." He, cosigned by all his friends, said that scripture doesn't apply because this guy isn't any brother of his and certainly isn't a Christian... all of this was because of a non-essential doctrinal disagreement.

I said all that to say this: there are a lot of delusional people out here walking around thinking they represent Christ. I have very little confidence in the WORDS of any human being these days. I'm looking at fruit.

[SirTJ]

Bishop Jakes, Noel Jones, and others who believe in Oneness doctrine, have been called heretics for as long as I can remember.

I was told recently (and I posted a status inspired by it) by a Pastor who was a FBF that I was not his sister and that he would never consider me a Christian as long as I call myself Apostolic. They definitely don't consider Bishop Jakes or Jones to be "brothers." Many trinitarian scholars or wannabe scholars believe that the oneness theology is heretical. This "news" doesn't surprise me even a little bit. That same FBF, btw, was saying some really mean and offensive things about this non-denominational guy and I interjected with the proverb "a brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city." He, cosigned by all his friends, said that scripture doesn't apply because this guy isn't any brother of his and certainly isn't a Christian... all of this was because of a non-essential doctrinal disagreement.

I said all that to say this: there are a lot of delusional people out here walking around thinking they represent Christ. I have very little confidence in the WORDS of any human being these days. I'm looking at fruit.

If the oneness doctrine you're referring to is the same as the 'modalism' doctrine described in these articles, Bishop Jakes doesn't believe in it anymore. From his own mouth:

"How they describe and explain the Godhead in a traditional Oneness sense is very different than how traditional Trinitarians describe the Gospel. I was in that church for a number of years and raised in that church for a number of years," Jakes said.

"As I began to progress, I began to understand that some of the dogma that I was taught in the Oneness movement was very dogmatic, very narrow and not the very best description of how I now understand the Godhead," he continued.

[..]

"I believe that neither one of them totally get it for me," Jakes revealed, yet expressing his agreement with the description of "one God, three persons."

[under13]

Sounds a little childish to me.

[Fenix]

Sounds a little childish to me.

Me too.

I just read up on the Oneness doctrine. I grew up in a mainstream church with no real adherence to strict doctrines other than belief in Jesus Christ being necessary for salvation. I don't know what the narrow Oneness is, but from what I have read, it is not inherently heretical IMO. I don't see what is wrong with it.

[THE WOLFMAN]

ok, real talk.


What the heezy is 'oneness'?


I aint NEVER herd of that till I took up residence in the LGM co-op.

[catslock1]

Oneness was always around when I was growing up the the Caribbean.  I've never really seen the big deal or difference between the Trinitarians (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) or the Oneness (Jesus-only) folks. To me it's almost the same rhetoric as the issue of baptism. 

[Arkhams Finest]

ok, real talk.


What the heezy is 'oneness'?


I aint NEVER herd of that till I took up residence in the LGM co-op.

Really?  There are more than a few of us.   

Basically I believe there is one God.  Jesus is God.

[LaylaMonroe]

If the oneness doctrine you're referring to is the same as the 'modalism' doctrine described in these articles, Bishop Jakes doesn't believe in it anymore. From his own mouth:

"How they describe and explain the Godhead in a traditional Oneness sense is very different than how traditional Trinitarians describe the Gospel. I was in that church for a number of years and raised in that church for a number of years," Jakes said.

"As I began to progress, I began to understand that some of the dogma that I was taught in the Oneness movement was very dogmatic, very narrow and not the very best description of how I now understand the Godhead," he continued.

[..]

"I believe that neither one of them totally get it for me," Jakes revealed, yet expressing his agreement with the description of "one God, three persons."

What Bishop Jakes is saying is the same thing I've been saying forever. Honestly, it's the Trinitarians that forced this modalism stuff on Oneness folks anyway. We simply believe, as RJ stated above, that there is one God and Jesus is His name. Jakes took a lot of heat for not denouncing oneness doctrine as it was taught years ago, but so have I. I refuse to engage in a semantics battle about "modes" and "personalities" and "characters" and "personas" just to convince someone that I am saved. If you don't believe I am, then go in peace and I will too. I'm not stressing all that folly. The fathers of old didn't dig deeply into what oneness meant, they just knew that there is ONE God. The opposers pressed for clarity and basically backed them into a corner for the sole purpose (I believe) of being divisive and then labeled it a cult. Many Trinitarians (and I mean MANY) consider Apostolics to be cult members.

This is pretty accurate for those who don't understand what Oneness is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

[SirTJ]

What I don't understand is how he can say that he didn't want them considering Jakes a "brother", but yet go on to say that MacDonald is still his "brother" even though they disagree, and that brothers should be able to disagree and what not. Ummm...isn't a disagreement essentially what you're having with Bishop? So how can a disagreement with Bishop disqualify him from being a "brother", but a disagreement with MacDonald is fine. This dude just threw me all the way off.

[LaylaMonroe]

And as I always say... this is not a salvation issue. If you believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin the son of God, lived on this earth in flesh, died and rose with all power in His hands, then it doesn't matter whether you believe the 3 are 3 distinct persons wrapped up in 1 being or 3 representatives of 1 being or 3 modes or 3 personas or 3 functions or whatever. It just doesn't matter. I know some say it does matter, but I disagree. I believe that belief in Jesus Christ as LORD OF ALL suffices (and I know that even some Apostolics disagree with that. I'm cool with that).

[LaylaMonroe]

What I don't understand is how he can say that he didn't want them considering Jakes a "brother", but yet go on to say that MacDonald is still his "brother" even though they disagree, and that brothers should be able to disagree and what not. Ummm...isn't a disagreement essentially what you're having with Bishop? So how can a disagreement with Bishop disqualify him from being a "brother", but a disagreement with MacDonald is fine. This dude just threw me all the way off.

Same thing the other guy told me on FB when he said that I'm not his sister. They (his friends) disagree on stuff all the time, but the issue of modalism is a salvation issue as they see it. And if you're not saved, you're not a sibling. They don't consider Jakes saved, they consider(ed) him a heretic and a cultist... like the rest of us Apostolics.

[sjonathan02]

What I don't understand is how he can say that he didn't want them considering Jakes a "brother", but yet go on to say that MacDonald is still his "brother" even though they disagree, and that brothers should be able to disagree and what not. Ummm...isn't a disagreement essentially what you're having with Bishop? So how can a disagreement with Bishop disqualify him from being a "brother", but a disagreement with MacDonald is fine. This dude just threw me all the way off.

That's only if he believes it's merely a 'disagreement'. 

[SirTJ]

Same thing the other guy told me on FB when he said that I'm not his sister. They (his friends) disagree on stuff all the time, but the issue of modalism is a salvation issue as they see it. And if you're not saved, you're not a sibling. They don't consider Jakes saved, they consider(ed) him a heretic and a cultist... like the rest of us Apostolics.

That's a lot of people who proclaim Jesus to be going to hell.

[LaylaMonroe]

That's a lot of people who proclaim Jesus to be going to hell.

Yep, and that's exactly what they believe. The poor guy that blasted me believes that we're all deceived in the same manner and to the same extent as the Jim Jones folks and scientologists, JWs, Mormons, and Branch Davidians.

[motifbludd82]

Here is my theory in the end.. ALL THAT WILL STAND IS THE WORD OF GOD!

[nessalynn77]

What Bishop Jakes is saying is the same thing I've been saying forever. Honestly, it's the Trinitarians that forced this modalism stuff on Oneness folks anyway. We simply believe, as RJ stated above, that there is one God and Jesus is His name. Jakes took a lot of heat for not denouncing oneness doctrine as it was taught years ago, but so have I. I refuse to engage in a semantics battle about "modes" and "personalities" and "characters" and "personas" just to convince someone that I am saved. If you don't believe I am, then go in peace and I will too. I'm not stressing all that folly. The fathers of old didn't dig deeply into what oneness meant, they just knew that there is ONE God. The opposers pressed for clarity and basically backed them into a corner for the sole purpose (I believe) of being divisive and then labeled it a cult. Many Trinitarians (and I mean MANY) consider Apostolics to be cult members.

This is pretty accurate for those who don't understand what Oneness is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

Maybe because you're Oneness you haven't experienced it the other way.  I've had a lot of Jesus' Only folks tell me that we're a cult who believes in three Gods, and consequently going to hell.  Some are scared to say "you're going to hell", but that's definitely what they mean to imply since what I believe in is not sufficient or effective for salvation or heaven, lol.

[Arkhams Finest]

Maybe because you're Oneness you haven't experienced it the other way.  I've had a lot of Jesus' Only folks tell me that we're a cult who believes in three Gods, and consequently going to hell.  Some are scared to say "you're going to hell", but that's definitely what they mean to imply since what I believe in is not sufficient or effective for salvation or heaven, lol.

I guess there are religious nuts on both sides of the fence.  *Jordan Shrug*

[LaylaMonroe]

Maybe because you're Oneness you haven't experienced it the other way.  I've had a lot of Jesus' Only folks tell me that we're a cult who believes in three Gods, and consequently going to hell.  Some are scared to say "you're going to hell", but that's definitely what they mean to imply since what I believe in is not sufficient or effective for salvation or heaven, lol.

Oh yes ma'am, I've definitely experienced it the other way. Remember I spent 10 years in COGIC and was frequently told that I was going to hell for that. Most Apostolics I know DO NOT and WILL NOT and HAVE NEVER fellowshipped with trinitarian believers.

I definitely know that it happens from both sides. I was just speaking from "my" side. And my point (in that particular post) was that trinitarian scholars are who forced Apostolics to clarify their stance on the "modes." I honestly don't even know where that word "modalism" came from - I'd have to study it. But our core belief is so much more simple than they made it. We just believe that Jesus is God.

I guess there are religious nuts on both sides of the fence.  *Jordan Shrug*

INDEED. One Apostolic FBF from up north unfriended me because one of her statuses declared boldly that women who wear pants are an abomination to the Lord and will go to hell, along with their painted faces and their big old earrings... she referred to these women as "loose" (direct quote). And she's not even 30 yet! Way too young to be thinking like that.

Yeah, there are nuts on both sides.

[nessalynn77]

I grew up more accepting of both sides.  Dad's COGIC and Mom's Apostolic.  My dad has preached at her home church and other churches, and her cousin who is a pastor has preached at our church.  My dad says he learned early on that if you go into a bible believing church and preach the bible and stay away from your opinion or your doctrine, you will never have a problem.  And he never did.

So if I believe in one God who is triune in nature (like I am btw, body soul and spirit), instead of throwing around words like "Trinity", etc.  I can preach from any scripture in the bible, even if it mentions Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and people who believe the bible will say "Amen", be blessed, maybe even shout.  But if I go in there talking about what my doctrine says about those scriptures or where I perceive their doctrine as flawed, we're going to have some issues. 

Ultimately, God is one and the only thing that unites our crazy differences is that we love him, serve him, and have his spirit on the inside.  Without that, it'll be all out war.