Being able to use your $$$$ bass rig in church Yes or No?

[ThumpinShelton]

So, we had a meeting after church yesterday and got some bad news.....by the end of October the house engineer wants all amps to go away. Headphones for monitors and everything DI. Now I know that this has happened at a LOT of churches, and I have played in many churches where this is the case. The problem is that at least most of the churches that I have seen this have a somewhat adequate house systme that is tuned properly with enough sub to handle the low end. I know from a guitarist standpoint a DI sound with a POD or somthing doesnt have the feel or the sound of the true guitar sound, and to be honest I have NEVER liked the way my bass has sounded through an Aviom or similar.

Now to our system: NO SUBS AT ALL!!!!!!!!! We are a smaller church (holds about 150) and there are only 2 JBL speakers flown in a center cluster above the stage.....and unfortunantly our soundman has NO experience running sound at all and he is just going off what he has read in magazines and on the internet. When I brought all of my concerns up we were told "That's the way it is going to happen"...... very frustrating day. And not to mention I had just recently purchased a new rig (Eden WT800 and 2 - 410 cabs. One for my other bands  practice space and one for church)

Has anyone here experienced this also????????

[Mysteryman]

Maybe you will have to find something virtual or like a small mixer or something and use your own headphones to here the sound you want.

[ThumpinShelton]

Mysteryman: I already have that taken care of. I have a really good set of headphones and a Eden WTDI premap, but my point is the A) I have only been in a couple of churches where the bass actually sounds like a bass through the house. B) We do not even have the subs to accomodate the low end of the bass or even keys.

[SavnBass]

Not even monitors on the stage? I hate Avioms myself.. My church has run the full gamut and now we are in between.. I use my 212 and I run my 900 through to the board pre EQ that way the sound man can color it how he needs to but I have the sound I want coming off the stage and he can just augment that .. When we played through the Avioms without any kind of stage monitoring whatsoever it was awful.. I could never really hear myself and every Sunday I would have people coming up to me saying that they cannot hear the bass.. but the singers and keyboards were overpowering in the mix.. For the Avioms to really work well with bass you either need good headphones (none of those 10 for $300 joints..) or something that you can hear in addition to the headphones.. or both.
I hope it all works out for you.

[Mysteryman]

Not even monitors on the stage? I hate Avioms myself.. My church has run the full gamut and now we are in between.. I use my 212 and I run my 900 through to the board pre EQ that way the sound man can color it how he needs to but I have the sound I want coming off the stage and he can just augment that .. When we played through the Avioms without any kind of stage monitoring whatsoever it was awful.. I could never really hear myself and every Sunday I would have people coming up to me saying that they cannot hear the bass.. but the singers and keyboards were overpowering in the mix.. For the Avioms to really work well with bass you either need good headphones (none of those 10 for $300 joints..) or something that you can hear in addition to the headphones.. or both.
I hope it all works out for you.

$30 headphones should be pretty good for home listening.

[phbrown]

$30 headphones should be pretty good for home listening.

I like you style sir LOL!


but back on topic ... is it possible to recommend some Subs to add to the system? Say hey if we are going to carry bass we need x,y,z? And Avoims can not reproduce my bass notes can we use these headphones instead?

[berbie]

Thumping said that he was told by the sound man that there was no choice but to use the house.  I am not nearly as knowledgable about bass as you guys, but I know that I would not like running through the house in a small church. I have never played in a really large church, so I don't know about that.  But my question is about the avioms. What are they? 

Apparently the sound man wants complete control over the ultimate sound.  That could be frustrating in some cases.  All a person could do is have good earphones to assure that his input is proper.  The sound would be left to the house tech.  If that is what they want to do, and are determined to do it,  it doesn't leave many choices.

I can easily understand how a person would feel somewhat put out over the fact of having purchased a new rig that could now not be used.  Especially if they couldn't get their money back.

I say again though, I am not really very  experienced in advanced bass systems.  I am learning a lot through these posts.

[waveofthinking]

Now to our system: NO SUBS AT ALL!!!!!!!!! We are a smaller church (holds about 150) and there are only 2 JBL speakers flown in a center cluster above the stage.....and unfortunantly our soundman has NO experience running sound at all and he is just going off what he has read in magazines and on the internet. When I brought all of my concerns up we were told "That's the way it is going to happen"...... very frustrating day. And not to mention I had just recently purchased a new rig (Eden WT800 and 2 - 410 cabs. One for my other bands  practice space and one for church)

Has anyone here experienced this also????????

Its happened to me a couple times.

[phbrown]

Thumping said that he was told by the sound man that there was no choice but to use the house.  I am not nearly as knowledgable about bass as you guys, but I know that I would not like running through the house in a small church. I have never played in a really large church, so I don't know about that.  But my question is about the avioms. What are they? 

my limited understanding is it allows for say a drummer to say I want to only hear the click track, the bass guitar, and the lead guitar in my monitor or speaker or in ear headphone

while at the same time the lead singer can be like i want to hear the keys and the other singers and the drummer

The keyboard player may just want to hear the drummer and the singers and the guitar


so everyone can mix there own personal mix. Can be helpful if you have a few strong singers you want everyone to hear while singing



I think sometimes people call the in ear headphones avioms also so you are trying to use these headphones to hear what your bass guitar sounds like but many times they are more suited to a singers vocal range and not the range of a bass guitar.

[6stringapprentice]

My policy is, I will surrender my rig if and only if I feel that the monitoring being provided is adequate. Adequate for me means the signal is reasonably clean and clear, I can get enough volume and bottom end from the monitor, and I am getting a "more me" mix without effecting the house and everyone else's mix. If this isn't the case I am bringing my rig or I am not playing. I've had to suffer through enough horrible monitoring situations that I don't want to deal with it anymore.

I understand the plight of the sound man and I am not there to give them a hard time, but I have to be able to hear myself. If a problem arises, I just simply calmly explain that I more than capable of keeping my stage volume under control. I keep my amp facing me. If stage rumble is a problem I will raise my HPF and or put my cab on a chair.

Usually if you remain respectful nice and you know what you are talking about you can get your way with most sound men. When you get rude, which is the path many musicians take is when the sound man digs in his heels.

Funny enough I recently had a taping where I had this exact problem. The sound tech was determined for no amps on stage. Problem was the church does not have a bass player and no bass monitor. So I was supposed to be monitoring our of the house which doesn't work because in order to have a "more me" mix I have to be louder than everything coming out of the house; vocals, keys, drums, etc. This is exactly what causes volume wars, I turn up to hear myself better now someone else can't hear so they turn up and it continues and the vocalist are the ones who suffer because humans don't come equip with volume knobs. Anyway this was the end result.

[Mysteryman]

My policy is, I will surrender my rig if and only if I feel that the monitoring being provided is adequate. Adequate for me means the signal is reasonably clean and clear, I can get enough volume and bottom end from the monitor, and I am getting a "more me" mix without effecting the house and everyone else's mix. If this isn't the case I am bringing my rig or I am not playing. I've had to suffer through enough horrible monitoring situations that I don't want to deal with it anymore.

I understand the plight of the sound man and I am not there to give them a hard time, but I have to be able to hear myself. If a problem arises, I just simply calmly explain that I more than capable of keeping my stage volume under control. I keep my amp facing me. If stage rumble is a problem I will raise my HPF and or put my cab on a chair.

Usually if you remain respectful nice and you know what you are talking about you can get your way with most sound men. When you get rude, which is the path many musicians take is when the sound man digs in his heels.

Funny enough I recently had a taping where I had this exact problem. The sound tech was determined for no amps on stage. Problem was the church does not have a bass player and no bass monitor. So I was supposed to be monitoring our of the house which doesn't work because in order to have a "more me" mix I have to be louder than everything coming out of the house; vocals, keys, drums, etc. This is exactly what causes volume wars, I turn up to hear myself better now someone else can't hear so they turn up and it continues and the vocalist are the ones who suffer because humans don't come equip with volume knobs. Anyway this was the end result.

How's that new speaker you made sound?

[Docdb04]

I am going through this now, not as extreme though.  Our sound man has no experience and it is killing it.  There is no balance in mics, you can't hear the organ or keyboard through the monitors (It only comes through the man speakers hanging from the ceiling) and he goes by what he hears in the sanctuary.  We had a bass player that wanted to come through the top, but because of the sound man lack of knowledge, he wouldn't touch it. 

I am not experienced in sound (I am just starting to pick my bass up again), but as Mysterman stated, be respectful and tell them what you need in order to produce a quality sound. 

I find it amazing those who have no clue about music and sound want to tell the musicians when the sound is right.  Maybe it is bad experiences that drive them to govern themselves this way. 

 

[Mysteryman]

I am going through this now, not as extreme though.  Our sound man has no experience and it is killing it.  There is no balance in mics, you can't hear the organ or keyboard through the monitors (It only comes through the man speakers hanging from the ceiling) and he goes by what he hears in the sanctuary.  We had a bass player that wanted to come through the top, but because of the sound man lack of knowledge, he wouldn't touch it. 

I am not experienced in sound (I am just starting to pick my bass up again), but as Mysterman stated, be respectful and tell them what you need in order to produce a quality sound. 

I find it amazing those who have no clue about music and sound want to tell the musicians when the sound is right.  Maybe it is bad experiences that drive them to govern themselves this way.

That was 6strings's advice. I just quoted him because I remember he made that speaker.

[DWBass]

Question, why is an inexperienced soundperson dictating how the PA setup should be? And why is he/she being allowed to?

[berbie]

There is no accounting for who turns up as sound man in any given church.  It is usually an internal church thing.  Whoever they deem to be qualified to have the last word is backed in his decisions.  It might even come down to who the pastor wants for whatever reason.  If that person is very hard nosed,  what he finally decides will go.  He may or may not have consulted with the musicians. 

I am not as familiar with large churches except that I know complaints are made about the sound man and his operating policies and skill sometimes.

I imagine that in either it comes to a point sometimes where you have to fish or cut bait when dealing with them so to speak.  Make the best of a bad situation or mark it as untenable.

[thunderkat]

Crank that bass up and crack them house speakers. Then they'll learn.

Just kidding but, it sounds like a very bad situation.

Generally bass sounds like trash coming through house speakers. I play (keys) at a large church. We have house speakers as well as two 18" subs.

My bassist still runs primarily through his SWR rig and we'll put him in the subs a little as well.

I don't know what kind of bass you're playing but if you have an Eden rig, I'm guessing it's a quality guitar.

Whatever it is I hope you get everything resolved unless you want your bass to sound like a Fisher Price.

[ThumpinShelton]

Good morning Everyone!!!!!

Somthing happened to my account and I was unable to log in and respond to the posts. So, I am back and running now.

I will sum up everything and cover all the questions asked really quick.

I brought up the fact that the house system was not capable of producing a quality sound with everything running straight through the PA without any type of sub. Our sound man is the Pastors's son who is not a very pleasent person to hang out with, but because he is the son of the leader.....you get the point. His words to all of us were that "if I can play a CD through our house speakers and it sounds good then we are just complaining". I had mentioned that I will bring a small 2x10 cabinet and face it toward me that way I can have a decent sound at least for myself and was told that that I will be asked to step down if I did not go with the new rules. Now, our keyboard player said he was going to bring a couple of studio style monitors to place on top of the keys for him to use and he was also told the same thing.

Here is the conclusion the keyboard player turned in his resignation last night after our Tuesday meeting session and I plan on doing the same. The situation is really disturbing and to me not what serving the Lord is all about. I value my relationship with God more than causing a scene or more discord in the church. 

[thunderkat]

Good morning Everyone!!!!!

Somthing happened to my account and I was unable to log in and respond to the posts. So, I am back and running now.

I will sum up everything and cover all the questions asked really quick.

I brought up the fact that the house system was not capable of producing a quality sound with everything running straight through the PA without any type of sub. Our sound man is the Pastors's son who is not a very pleasent person to hang out with, but because he is the son of the leader.....you get the point. His words to all of us were that "if I can play a CD through our house speakers and it sounds good then we are just complaining". I had mentioned that I will bring a small 2x10 cabinet and face it toward me that way I can have a decent sound at least for myself and was told that that I will be asked to step down if I did not go with the new rules. Now, our keyboard player said he was going to bring a couple of studio style monitors to place on top of the keys for him to use and he was also told the same thing.

Here is the conclusion the keyboard player turned in his resignation last night after our Tuesday meeting session and I plan on doing the same. The situation is really disturbing and to me not what serving the Lord is all about. I value my relationship with God more than causing a scene or more discord in the church. 

It's a shame it had to go down like that but, it sounds like you and your keyboardist did the right thing.

No since in arguing or being miserable because of someone else who is clearly on a power trip... and I'm guessing they weren't paying you much either. That usually makes the decision a bit easier.

[ThumpinShelton]

It's a shame it had to go down like that but, it sounds like you and your keyboardist did the right thing.

No since in arguing or being miserable because of someone else who is clearly on a power trip... and I'm guessing they weren't paying you much either. That usually makes the decision a bit easier.

Unfortunantly your right. I hated to see this situation unfold like this, but a lot of people have been seeing this coming. The whole dynamic of the church has changed over the past 2 years and a lot of members, Deacons, and Elders have also left. And you are right they werent paying us that well.

[6stringapprentice]

How's that new speaker you made sound?

It's pretty nice. It's fairly transparent, what you put in, it puts out. Very sensitive to eq and pickup blend/switch changes.