Key vs. Major scale

[T-Block]

I just wanted to start a discussion I think may be helpful to beginners as well as seasoned musicians here on LGM. When we use the phrase "key of ____", most of us have been conditioned to refer to the major scale when naming sharps and flats that are expected to be encountered. Maybe its just me, but I think this is a little misleading. When I'm in a certain "key", I'm liable to play any note or chord, whether it lies in the major scale or not.

Using the key of C for example, we all know that the major scale is just all the white notes. However, during a song that's in the key of C, you will hear piano players using Bbs, D#s, G#s, etc. none of which are in the C major scale, but somehow they stay perfectly in "key".


So, my question(s) for the fam are:

1) Is there a difference between "key of ____" and the major scale?

2) If so, should musicians know about it?

3) How should it be taught so that confusion is minimized?


There are no right or wrong answers. Any input is welcomed and encouraged!!! 

[T-Block]

I'll get the ball rolling with my answers:

1) Is there a difference between "key of ____" and the major scale?

Yes, there is a difference. The major scale is made up of notes using a certain formula. However, the key refers to the organization of the chords.

For example, you may look at a piece of sheet music and see 0 sharps or flats as the key signature and automatically think its the key of C. However, you could be wrong because it could be A minor, D dorian, E phygian, or even a completely different key like G with accidentals written everywhere.

2) If so, should musicians know about it?

Yes musicians should know about it. I think if more musicians knew about this, they wouldn't be in such a despair when their playing sounds bland. I hear this question get asked a lot:

"I've practiced the major scale, I've practiced basic chords, and I've practiced progressions in every key, and my playing still sucks. Why?"

There's more to a key than the major scale. The major scale in my opinion is just the starting point, and I don't think this principle is being stressed enough.

3) How should it be taught so that confusion is minimized?

That's a good question that even I don't have a full-proof answer for. However, I have made posts dealing with this, but maybe some videos along with those posts might help.

[sjonathan02]

I'll get the ball rolling with my answers:

Yes, there is a difference. The major scale is made up of notes using a certain formula. However, the key refers to the organization of the chords.

For example, you may look at a piece of sheet music and see 0 sharps or flats as the key signature and automatically think its the key of C. However, you could be wrong because it could be A minor, D dorian, E phygian, or even a completely different key like G with accidentals written everywhere.


Yes musicians should know about it. I think if more musicians knew about this, they wouldn't be in such a despair when their playing sounds bland. I hear this question get asked a lot:

"I've practiced the major scale, I've practiced basic chords, and I've practiced progressions in every key, and my playing still sucks. Why?"

There's more to a key than the major scale. The major scale in my opinion is just the starting point, and I don't think this principle is being stressed enough.


That's a good question that even I don't have a full-proof answer for. However, I have made posts dealing with this, but maybe some videos along with those posts might help.

Do you have an example of a song in the key of D dorian or E phrygian?

I concede the possibility of a song being in a major or minor key but the others you suggest, I've not come across.


This is good stuff, T.

[gtrdave]

Do you have an example of a song in the key of D dorian or E phrygian?

Key signatures are not stated in modes...D dorian is not a key, it's a scale.
What T-block is saying is that just because a song is in the "key of C" does not mean that the song is restricted to ONLY the notes in the C major scale. It could use all 12 notes in the chromatic scale, but the key center may still be C.
The theme song to the tv show "The Simpsons" is in the "key of C", but the main melody (before it modulates) is C lydian based. Still a "major" scale (based on the root to major third interval), but not C natural or diatonic major scale.
The "key of..." notification of any song gives a frame of reference for the song, but not a strict rule that says 'you can only use these notes and chords, etc...'

I concede the possibility of a song being in a major or minor key but the others you suggest, I've not come across.

I've never seen a chart or lead sheet in anything other than a major or minor key.

[T-Block]

Do you have an example of a song in the key of D dorian or E phrygian?

Not off the top of my head, but I've recorded some modal music using Db lydian. It may exist somewhere, we just haven't heard it mainstream yet.

Key signatures are not stated in modes...D dorian is not a key, it's a scale.
What T-block is saying is that just because a song is in the "key of C" does not mean that the song is restricted to ONLY the notes in the C major scale. It could use all 12 notes in the chromatic scale, but the key center may still be C.

To go along with that, the key center could be D as well, with the key signature of C.

[sjonathan02]

Key signatures are not stated in modes...D dorian is not a key, it's a scale.
What T-block is saying is that just because a song is in the "key of C" does not mean that the song is restricted to ONLY the notes in the C major scale. It could use all 12 notes in the chromatic scale, but the key center may still be C.
The theme song to the tv show "The Simpsons" is in the "key of C", but the main melody (before it modulates) is C lydian based. Still a "major" scale (based on the root to major third interval), but not C natural or diatonic major scale.
The "key of..." notification of any song gives a frame of reference for the song, but not a strict rule that says 'you can only use these notes and chords, etc...'

I've never seen a chart or lead sheet in anything other than a major or minor key.

Yea, that's what I thought.

[sjonathan02]

To go along with that, the key center could be D as well, with the key signature of C.

*puppy head tilt*

[T-Block]

*puppy head tilt*

Did I say something wrong?

[sjonathan02]

Did I say something wrong?

Wrong? I don't know. Confusing? Without a doubt.

[berbie]

Sometimes it is hard not to just play the standard chords for the key that you are in and, of course, your music lacks adventure.  Experimenting with other chords adds spice.  They can sound bad, but after a period of time,  which chord works where can be internalized.  It is good to be reminded that you don't have to be locked into diatonics when you are playing.

I consider minor and major key signatures to be the same.  If the music looks funny(strange) the first thing that I consider Is the relative minor.  I see them simply as dual key signatures.( which they are).

The modes are different.  It is notable how different the key of C sounds compared to  D Dorian.  As far as I know, you have to go for yourself when playing modes.  I don't know of an established "diatonic" rule for the modes.  They make for nice runs.  You could say that the minor keys are modes.  Other than that, I just consider them as scales that can be used in certain applications.  I truly stand to be corrected if I am in error.

When a person says, key of C, the first thing I think of is the C major scale, so my knee jerk reaction is to consider them the same.  I have to make a special effort to think out of the box.

[T-Block]

Wrong? I don't know. Confusing? Without a doubt.

What's confusing about it?

[sjonathan02]

What's confusing about it?

I don't understand how the key center could be 'D' when the key signature is 'C' (or 'A minor').

[berbie]

I understood him to be saying, D Dorian or E phrygian(C major scale starting on D and E).  The scale  thus starts on those notes(key center?) but you are playing the C scale.

[T-Block]

Key center comes from the organization of the chords, not necessarily the key signature.

[musicmandan]

Do you have an example of a song in the key of D dorian or E phrygian?

"So What" from Miles Davis' album Kind of Blue is one of the best known examples of modal jazz, set in the Dorian mode and consisting of 16 bars of D Dorian, followed by eight bars of E♭ Dorian and another eight of D Dorian.

[sjonathan02]

"So What" from Miles Davis' album Kind of Blue is one of the best known examples of modal jazz, set in the Dorian mode and consisting of 16 bars of D Dorian, followed by eight bars of E♭ Dorian and another eight of D Dorian.

Thanks for that. BTW, how did you get your flat sign to look like an actual flat sign?

[musicmandan]

I cut and pasted that off wiki and it transfered perfectly. The reason I remember that song is my instructor gave an assignment to create a walking bass line over those changes, keep it interesting and not get lost in the form while staying true to the mode(s). Only 2 chords but not so easy. If you take the last 8 bars and add them to the first 16 in the song, that’s 24 bars of Dm7. That was 2 years ago and it’s still a work in progress!

[sjonathan02]

I cut and pasted that off wiki and it transfered perfectly. The reason I remember that song is my instructor gave an assignment to create a walking bass line over those changes, keep it interesting and not get lost in the form while staying true to the mode(s). Only 2 chords but not so easy. If you take the last 8 bars and add them to the first 16 in the song, that’s 24 bars of Dm7. That was 2 years ago and it’s still a work in progress!

Thanks.

[T-Block]

Now, back to the discussion....

[sjonathan02]

Now, back to the discussion....

It would appear to be exhausted, actually.