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Author Topic: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!  (Read 7390 times)

Offline CDUBWORLD

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NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« on: February 24, 2014, 06:01:49 PM »
WATCH this video and It'll explain the whole thing!

AGREE OR DISAGREE??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngTiYBBVRk0&feature=c4-overview&list=UUnqocbDPLtkaEn9xj8QD9ig

Offline SavnBass

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 06:41:25 AM »
It is informative... but you should consider writing a basic script to what it is you want to teach.. and rehearsing it as you would if you were playing so that the delivery is less.....  disjointed. Give it some thought and take your time.. It seems as if you got this idea and tossed some ideas around as to what you wanted to do and then you turned on the camera and did it.. Take a more... planned approach.. Good effort though and there is some meat in there.. and the playing is good too...  ;) I will be watching your channel..
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.

Offline PianoClubhouse

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 07:12:40 AM »
CDUB: "There's No Such Thing As Playing By Ear"

Offline gtrdave

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 07:59:23 AM »
Did you make this video for April Fool's Day?  ;D
Was this supposed to be a joke, 'cause I'm finding a lot of it funny.
If you're trying to be serious...sorry, but the title and the premise behind it is false and the reasons given are weak, narrow minded and unsubstantiated. To say that I disagree with much of what is in the video is an understatement. Plus, you contradict yourself by claiming that "there is no such thing as playing by ear" and then go and tell people "if you have a good ear...learn it note-for-note".  ?/?
Wait, I thought you said...  ::)

Let me address the three "reasons" you've given:
1. perfect pitch people can't play music - this is a false generalization with no evidence offered. First, playing music requires MUCH more from a person than knowing what note is being sounded out. It requires timing, it requires coordination, it requires emotion and communication and it requires at least the basic understanding of melody and harmony. It does not require the person to be able to name the 12 notes spot on when they hear them. On the contrary, I could not name you a single note when I picked up the guitar when I was 12 years old, but I could, after a little practice, learn full complete songs, rhythm and solos and including the bass lines, drum fills and all vocal parts and harmonies simply by listening to them. Granted, I don't have perfect pitch, I have near perfect relative pitch. The two are different.
To add an alternate fact, I believe that my friend Vinnie Moore has perfect pitch (I'll talk to him and verify this) and he is undoubtedly one of the best guitarists in the world. (Google him, you'll see) I'm sure there are many other examples of those with perfect pitch who can play an instrument, but that doesn't mean that everyone who does, will.

2. lack playing up-to-date - again, a false generalization with no evidence given. What narrow pool of people did you draw this incorrect conclusion from? Most of the greatest musicians I know...many of them who have always played by ear (but they do know their theory)...stay current and actually draw from styles from generations both past and present. Regardless of the FACT that there are essentially only 12 notes, it doesn't take much time nor effort for a person with a good ear and a desire to learn to listen to any style from any genre (including various types of world music) and pick up on what's being played and then emulate it. People who wish to stay stuck in a particular period or style are doing so NOT because they "play by ear" but because that's what they choose to play and probably listen to.

3. why do you transpose - yet another false generalization with no evidence given, but I now see the target of your frustration and reason for your hypothesis; a few church keyboardists that you've probably come across who always play in the key of C. And by saying what you've said and doing what you've done in this video, you've totally written off all of the other musicians, church keyboardists included, who can easily transpose and play in every key...and who play by ear.  ;)

With all due respect, it sounds like you have a passion to teach others how to improve their playing and that's great, but you need to, as SavnBass said, "give it some thought and take your time" and teach a program that is full of beneficial data, facts and good practical music theory and remove all of what I sense as pride and nonsense opinions which, honestly, will make it very difficult for a lot of people to take you seriously.
If you're going to focus on "muscle memory" then do that, but don't ignore the fact that muscle memory develops first from 1) learning something by ear and/or 2) learning something that is read and then is sustained by the repeated practice of what was learned.
I know what I wrote may have seemed critical, but I get very passionate about people being taught what is honest and true. I've been a guitar and music teacher for 3 decades and I've seen the benefits of teaching via the web, but I've also witnessed so much waste and nonsense come from bad YouTube videos, bad websites, bad tab and via music forums and I've come across a lot of young budding musicians who have been taught a lot of garbage that they believe is true because they don't know any better and they trust those who are seemingly well-intentioned, but have led them astray. So, yeah, I take this stuff serious. We all should if it's what we've been called to do.  :)
Music theory is not always music reality.

Offline berbie

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2014, 08:47:22 AM »
One thing that he said I agreed with very much.  For the ear player to listen to music of his type and try to play it, learning everything about the song and getting it cold.  At least one a month I think he said, but that would be up to the individual.  It might take more or less time.  These patterns/grooves/progressions are often repeated song to song.  And one would learn licks/riffs.  I really didn't know about the other part.  I surmised that he was giving chords and order of playings that would apply to many songs, and in all keys.  He would have to explain how this would work and why a person would want to spend time doing it. I took the title as hyperbole.   

Offline CDUBWORLD

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2014, 11:27:32 AM »
Thanks for all the responses. I understand where all of you are coming from. I know this topic may not set right with some and thats cool. Everything i said, i meant to say on purpose. Don't let the title of the video make you miss my point. I don't expect for everyone to agree, especially music teachers. If your mind is not open to just watch, listen, and learn then you will automatically find fault in everything I say. You're actually doing it right now lol. But thats cool, this video was purely intended to open your mind, and help you get better. If your mind is closed, or if you've reached the level you want to reach musically, then this video will make no sense to you. I planned this video out from every point even to the quality and lighting on the video. What you see is no mistake, and what i said was on purpose. But please, if you're going to criticize what i said in the video, at least don't accuse me of saying things that i didn't say. Make sure you double check before you "quote" me. Otherwise, there's no point in me trying to make a valid argument. As far as the muscle memory exercise. There is a reason i created that exercise too. Its not just a bunch of random chords i put together. I chose to start out with the key of C,Db,D,Eb, and F for a reason. Im not crazy yall....well maybe a little lol. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video! Oh and by the way, feel free to check out one of my tunes on Itunes at the link below!!

Blessings
CDUB

Straight Jacket- https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/straight-jacket-crazy-praise/id784579956

Offline lordluvr

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2014, 01:54:59 PM »
I guess I have a different take on what I just heard.  I thought it was well thought-out and I fully understood and agree with (conceptually) everything that he said.  Furthermore, I appreciate the fact that he desires to help many at no cost. 

Offline berbie

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2014, 03:43:59 PM »
Lordluvr,  If I knew exactly why and how the study suggested would help me(a person), I(he/she) would be inclined to work harder at it.  That is, if I could see for sure that the prize is at the top of the mountain(time and study)that I would be climbing.  I think I see, but I am not sure.  I'm thinking that he is saying that if you learn the chords in all the keys as he is saying, then you can use the chords and extra notes to play many songs and you would be able to readily play them in any key.   He's saying, "Trust me, I know it works". Maybe he's tried it.  Maybe it does.  I don't think I'm going there, but I'm going to write down the chords(key of C) and try them to see what I think.  Some will be surprised how much study is really involved altogether.

Actually,  my procedure is like he stated as the first method of learning, along with what I consider to be playing by ear.  Actually I have learned some theory,  some reading and a lot of chords, and some say that in that case, you are not playing by ear.

More advanced and knowledgeable musicians can better report on the advantages/disadvantages of study as was proposed.  I would have to say to Cdub,  thank you for posting. 

Offline gtrdave

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 04:38:27 PM »
The secret to what he's suggesting is really no secret at all; take the time to learn and practice those things that you don't know until you know them and can play them as if you've always known them.

That's it. No secret, just time and dedication and sacrifice and study. It's the same thing I tell everyone who has ever asked me "how do I get better?"
It takes time and dedication and sacrifice and study.
Music theory is not always music reality.

Offline SketchMan3

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2014, 05:00:48 PM »
gtrdave you really did kinda misquote the dude a lot, haha. "Why can't some people who have perfect pitch play an instrument" is what he said, among other things. I read your responses before watching the video.

CDUB, First of all you have to define what "playing by ear" is before you can get into a discussion like this. None of what you are saying has anything to do with "you can't improve because you think you play by ear which isn't actually what you are doing". Muscle memory is not in your muscles. It's in your brain as you say. Your ears are definitely connected to your brain (I hope). Just because your ears are not a "muscle" does not mean there is no memory involved in it. Your muscles, ears, and brain all work together.

I can't even... If you want to "open our minds" don't start off with an assertion based on fallacy.

I agree with what SavnBass said. Think a bit more into what you are saying. You may be doing everything intentionally, planned everything out like Lex Luthor or Batman, whatever, but that doesn't make it infallible :-\

As a person who plays by ear and everything, you haven't told me anything I do not already know. You should have just left out the "there is no such thing as playing by ear" altogether. :(

:-\

Like... reading between the lines, I think I see where you are coming from. Basically this whole video could have been summed up in two sentences: If you get up every weekend and just *wing your way through the songs "by ear" then you'll find your playing does not evolve much. You need to spend more time learning and practicing NEW things throughout the week.
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Offline gtrdave

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 08:03:28 PM »
gtrdave you really did kinda misquote the dude a lot, haha.

No, actually I didn't.  ;D The only things I quoted from him and Savn were put in quotation marks.
Everything else was a paraphrase.
I watched most of the video he posted, some of it twice to be sure I was hearing clearly what he was saying.

Your last paragraph was perfect, though. All that 15 minutes of stuff could be easily condensed down into two sentences.  :)
Music theory is not always music reality.

Offline berbie

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 09:46:16 PM »
I wrote down the chords for the key of "C" as directed and played them.  Its a nice little (song?).  If I practiced them for an hour a day for a week, I should have some serious muscle memory.  What else  would I have?  (except at my age, arthritis)Comments?  What would an advanced beginner have?  Comments?

Offline SketchMan3

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2014, 01:45:36 AM »
Everything else was a paraphrase.
Oh. Well that explains it. In either case, I thought it was done in an unfair way. I understand though. That passion! ;)
I have to empathize with CDUB on that respect at least.

Welcome to LGM, haha. Thanks for posting this, and don't be a stranger. :)
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Offline gtrdave

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014, 06:21:26 AM »
Oh. Well that explains it. In either case, I thought it was done in an unfair way. I understand though. That passion! ;)
I have to empathize with CDUB on that respect at least.

Yep, we all get passionate about what we love to do musically and I can relate to CDUB on that level.
For me, though, I've seen so many videos of guitarists who (I think) thought they were trying to help and teach others, but instead gave off a bunch of bad information that will ultimately lead the learner astray and confuse them (dwest knows about this as I've shared this with him before on the guitar forum). The internet, YouTube, etc...has opened up doors of information sharing that we never had available in the '70s/'80s/most of the '90s, but not all that information is good and I guess I'm an advocate of making sure that beginner musicians get the best and most correct info as possible so that they can advance forward from being beginner musicians and not perpetuate bad theory.

Did you watch any of CDUB's other videos? Dude can play, for sure.  :)
Music theory is not always music reality.

Offline T-Block

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2014, 08:18:51 AM »
I finally got a chance to view this video. I agree with a lot of what was said. My only gripe (and it has been mentioned) is in how the term "playing by ear" is interpreted. Other than that, Mr. Cdub hit on some very good points like muscle memory (the position of your hands for the chords & runs), getting out of using transpose (and the horror stories), and the story about "cheating" through piano class using your ear instead of learning the concepts (actually reading the music).

As with any video or presentation, there will always be things you can grab hold of and things you can let go. Take what you can use and leave everything else. Besides, he said it's his opinion and you can agree or disagree.

I will definitely be checking out the future progression videos to see how they enhance my playing.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline CDUBWORLD

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2014, 05:54:35 PM »
I appreciate everyone taking out the time to watch it, and thanks for the comments! I'm not trying to make anybody believe what i said, its just my opinion and the great thing about is, what im teaching on my youtube page will help you whether you believe this video or not! How cool! Anyways, I'll to make my next few post a little less irritating lol! Thanks for the warm welcome! :-)

Offline berbie

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2014, 06:24:59 PM »
Hey CDUB, I'm trying it and having fun with it. I enjoy playing the first lesson.  Looking forward to the next.  Thanks for the post.

Offline PianoClubhouse

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2014, 08:46:51 PM »
Hey CDUB, I'm trying it and having fun with it. I enjoy playing the first lesson.  Looking forward to the next.  Thanks for the post.

+1

Offline gtrdave

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2014, 06:23:47 AM »
I appreciate everyone taking out the time to watch it, and thanks for the comments! I'm not trying to make anybody believe what i said, its just my opinion and the great thing about is, what im teaching on my youtube page will help you whether you believe this video or not! How cool! Anyways, I'll to make my next few post a little less irritating lol! Thanks for the warm welcome! :-)

And I'll try to make my replies less offensive and combative.  :)
I should have never done that on your very first post here, so I apologize for that.
Welcome to the forum!  ;D
Music theory is not always music reality.

Offline berbie

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Re: NEWS FLASH: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PLAYING BY EAR!
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2016, 11:49:36 PM »
Thanks for looking this up, CS.  It was a fully discussed matter.  Many of us who are not trained from youth in a structured program are often looking for a "silver bullet" that will somehow in a flash, take us to the next level.  Twelve weeks of one hour a day practice can be considered to be"in a flash".  Would it produce the desired result? It would be a matter of some disapolntment if after finishing, it did not.  I had considered that I might try it, but I don't want to write out all the patterns in keys as required. I'vedetermined that I would write out three and just see where that goes.  Incidently, an hour a day for a week is a loooot of practice on one passage.  More that one might think at first blush.  Could drive one up the wall.  Also,  would an hour a week on something else give a better return?  I wonder.
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