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Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: hugg on August 12, 2005, 10:35:35 AM
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hello.
there's the sus4 right?
what about the sus2, where do you use that chord?
any other more suspened chords?
thanks. :) :lol: :D
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CFG Sus 4
CFGBb sus 7
CDG or C DGC
With the exeption of the first chord I usually group them as quartal harmony.
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Sus 2
Sus 4
Sus 6
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Basically any chord can be suspended. All u have to do is hold down a note from the previous chord while playing the other notes regular. Then a split second later, move that note to the correct note. Just in case u don't understand that, here is an example:
C-E-G
A-E-F *notice here the E is held over from the first chord
A-D-F *notice here the E goes to D
When u have a suspension, you have all the notes in the chord except for 1. Later, that 1 note that is out of the chord resolves to a note in the chord.
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but this is a minor sus 7 where the sus is a major suspended which resolves to the flat seven
dfac# - dfac
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Ok, this needs a revisit imo..
Guys, no longer have to be scared of being cursed for sharing what you know ;D
Don't just stated it's a sus2 chord..
explain how it's formed so that...*blahblah* ;)
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Ok, this needs a revisit imo..
Guys, no longer have to be scared of being cursed for sharing what you know ;D
Don't just stated it's a sus2 chord..
explain how it's formed so that...*blahblah* ;)
this post was from 2005
i think a lot of us were figuring there was so much other information on this subject in other posts at the time we just gave little answers
back then t-block and I were just little guys
aljiers was contributing big on topics like this
but enough reminiscing
a suspension is where you raise a tone up a half step or a whole step
the usual tones to raise
are the third
the root and the seventh
the root when raised creates a sus 2
you raise the root a whole step
the third when raised creates a sus4
the seventh is raised on a minor chord
to a major seventh
and resolved down to the flat seventh
traditionally the suspensions are resolved
but now days
they are left suspended
final notes
the sus 2 are sus 2 when there is no seventh present in the chord
if there is a seventh then the 2 becomes a 9th
and is no longer considered a suspension
the sus 4 is still a sus if there is a 7th
but if there is a third in the chord then it is an 11th not really a sus4
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Diverse, some areas I disagree with you.
but I'll be back when I'm thinking straight..right now my bed is shouting out my name..
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Diverse, some areas I disagree with you.
but I'll be back when I'm thinking straight..right now my bed is shouting out my name..
well let me know I will point you to all the literature where I got my information
cuz you know I dont play
and I dont write things I cant validate
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a suspension is where you raise a tone up a half step or a whole step
the usual tones to raise
are the third
the root and the seventh
the root when raised creates a sus 2
you raise the root a whole step
the third when raised creates a sus4
the seventh is raised on a minor chord
to a major seventh
and resolved down to the flat seventh
traditionally the suspensions are resolved
but now days
they are left suspended
final notes
the sus 2 are sus 2 when there is no seventh present in the chord
if there is a seventh then the 2 becomes a 9th
and is no longer considered a suspension
the sus 4 is still a sus if there is a 7th
but if there is a third in the chord then it is an 11th not really a sus4
And there you have it. Just for a little more clarity purposes, the suspended chords apply to the RH part of the chord moreso than the LH.
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this post was from 2005
i think a lot of us were figuring there was so much other information on this subject in other posts at the time we just gave little answers
back then t-block and I were just little guys
aljiers was contributing big on topics like this
but enough reminiscing
a suspension is where you raise a tone up a half step or a whole step
the usual tones to raise
are the third
the root and the seventh
the root when raised creates a sus 2
you raise the root a whole step
the third when raised creates a sus4
the seventh is raised on a minor chord
to a major seventh
and resolved down to the flat seventh
traditionally the suspensions are resolved
but now days
they are left suspended
final notes
the sus 2 are sus 2 when there is no seventh present in the chord
if there is a seventh then the 2 becomes a 9th
and is no longer considered a suspension
the sus 4 is still a sus if there is a 7th
but if there is a third in the chord then it is an 11th not really a sus4
The boldened part highlights my area of query:
Are you saying the 3rd will still be present there?
I believe it was Hammondman! who taught that that's the sus2..I also saw this in 1 of his short vids where he explains them..I also saw that this is the same way Geres explains the sus2..
All along, I've been told that you lower the 3rd a whole step to form the sus2..meaning that the root can still be present...
Just in case I'm incorrect, I've double checked with a couple of chord finders:
here is one:
http://www.hearandplay.com/pianochords.html
so the formula I use is 1-2-5..
Do you use 2-3-5?
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you came correct you brought all your sources
I serioulsy respect that
My understanding is that the in a sus 2 chord the
1 is actually the note that is suspended
so you have a 2.3 5 in the chord
and the 2 will then resolve down to the 1
it is a familiar sound
DEG
CEG
you asked another question
can the C be present along with the D
Usually when you have both the root and the 2 in the same chord
this is called an add 9 chord
I never heard of this device that you say hammondman and aljiers taught
with the D going up to the E as being called suspended in formal theory circles
but
I have seen jazz musicians use it but they usually
are referring to is as a tension resolving upward
not a lowered suspension
because to suspend means to hang above just by definition
in any case
the sound that they create sounds wonderful
and there is nothing wrong with it
the problem comes into play with what do you call it
you really can call it whatever you like
but to avoid miscommunication
I tend to be a little exact
so that is why
I will maintain that
a 2 added to a triad is an Add9
and if the Tonic is missing it is an sus2
if the 3 is missing then it is a chord fragment
and sometimes labeled Cadd9 no3
but that is cumbersome
but that is how it is usually spelled in chord charts
I like the fact that there are others on this site who are concerned with the correct ways to call chords and principles ''
because this is how we can really help develop each other
if we all speak the same language
we can transmit tons of information
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My understanding is that the in a sus 2 chord the
1 is actually the note that is suspended
so you have a 2.3 5 in the chord
and the 2 will then resolve down to the 1
it is a familiar sound
DEG
CEG
Ok, so that's the formula you use as I had understood.
I never heard of this device that you say hammondman and aljiers taught
with the D going up to the E as being called suspended in formal theory circles
but
I have seen jazz musicians use it but they usually
are referring to is as a tension resolving upward
not a lowered suspension
because to suspend means to hang above just by definition
in any case
the sound that they create sounds wonderful
and there is nothing wrong with it
the problem comes into play with what do you call it
you really can call it whatever you like
but to avoid miscommunication
I tend to be a little exact
so that is why
I will maintain that
a 2 added to a triad is an Add9
and if the Tonic is missing it is an sus2
if the 3 is missing then it is a chord fragment
and sometimes labeled Cadd9 no3
but that is cumbersome
but that is how it is usually spelled in chord charts
I like the fact that there are others on this site who are concerned with the correct ways to call chords and principles ''
because this is how we can really help develop each other
if we all speak the same language
we can transmit tons of information
Twas good that you misquoted me there because you ended up explaining the underlying concept of sus chords 8)
I think this should be locked now so that the fundamental principle of sus chords which has been explained is not missed ..
Nice 1 Diverse :)
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isn't 11th's suspended chords? it's like the sus4 but the 4 is an octave up.
i like to use minor and major 11th's when a song slows down and the MOM tells me to carry the progression on my guitar.
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isn't 11th's suspended chords? it's like the sus4 but the 4 is an octave up.
i like to use minor and major 11th's when a song slows down and the MOM tells me to carry the progression on my guitar.
yes and no
techncally it would be up an octave but it doesent have to voiced up an octave what makes it 11th is that the 7th iis in the chord so now the 11th also appears usually we sharp the 11th if the third is present
just like a 2 becomes a 9th if the 7th is in the chord
and a 6 becomes 13 if there is a 7th in the chord
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I'll give this a shot. I can take correction if needed and some of this might be repeating what has already been said:
- 1-2-5 = _________________sus2
- 1-4-5 = _________________sus4
- 1-4-5-7 = _______________7sus4
- 1-2(9)-3-5 = ____________ Major add 9 (when the 3 is present, the 2 becomes a 9)
so a better way to say it is:
1-3-5-9
- 1-b3-5-7 = ______________ m/Maj7
- 1-b3-4(11)-5-b7,9 = ______ minor7,9,11 (when the 3 is present, the 4 becomes an 11)
so a better way to say it is:
1-b3-5-b7-9-11
8)
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Musallio, there you go, dusting off them old threads again! :D :D :D
I'm just now noticing this was originally from 2005! looool
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We need to sort a few things out here.
First, we are dealing with a confusion of classical theory usage and the naming conventions of chord symbols (which were originally developed by guitarist and ukulelelelelists).
For the chord symbols, the "sus 4" and "sus 2" (which is sometimes written as "add 2") are naming conventions to describe a certain combination of notes and are only tentatively related to the classical theory usage. In a triad, both instances represent a replacement of the chord third by either the 4th or 2nd scale-step above the root. A C major triad is [C E G]. If the E is replaced with F [C F G], it becomes a C sus4; if replaced by D [C D G] it becomes a C sus2. In the case of 7th chords, you would rarely encounter a "7 sus2" since the 2 is equivalent to the 9 (although the 2 does imply replacing the third while the 9 implies the presence of the third.) As far as the "7 sus4", that occurs frequently, particularly in lead sheets that do not indicate anything beyond a 7th chord. It is functionally practically identical to "x11". Although, the "11" implies the presence of the both the 9th and the 3rd and the "4" says little about the 9th and implies a replacement of the 3rd by the 4th, in general usage, the 3rd is frequently omitted in voicings since it creates the very dissonant m 9th interval.
Though I have seen it, a "min sus4" or "min sus2" (whether triad or 7th) does not really exist since the characteristic note (the minor 3rd) is missing. Its only possible practical purpose is that it warns one that the following "chord of resolution" is going to be built on a minor triad as opposed to a major triad. If the 3rd were added in, then these would be functionally identical to the "min 11" and a "min 9". In the case of a "min 11" it is generally voiced with the 3rd since there is no major problem with the interval between the 3rd and the 11th and without it, it is functionally identical to a dominant 11.
When working with these chords in the context of chord symbol, it is best to just consider them as an indication of how the notes are combined to form them, since as often as not they do not follow the classical context of "suspension."
Now, the name "suspension" and its derivatives comes from classical usage meaning "suspended resolution". A classical suspension is a three step process -- preparation, suspension, resolution. First the note to be suspended is introduced as an essential member of the harmony -- chord tones [1 3 5] and in the case of the dominant 7 [1 3 5 7] (Note, some books will say "consonant" to the harmony, but this is not necessarily true in the case of a dominant chord since the 7th is dissonant. But the 7th has been considered an essential part of the dominant 7th for centuries). Then when the chord changes to the next harmony, a note (or notes) that is (are) dissonant -- not an essential member of the harmony -- is maintained over the other notes of the new harmony. Finally, the suspended note is resolved to a note that is consonant and an essential chord tone. The resolution is by step usually descending. Also, in all instances except when the suspended interval is a 2nd, the upper note is the note of resolution. If the interval is a 2nd, then the lower note descends.
Rhythmically, a suspension "crosses the bar". Though the bar line may not actually be present, the preparation and resolution falls on a rhythmically weaker beat or portion of a beat than the actual suspension. In its most basic form you would have P |S R || (P = preparation, S = suspension, R = resolution.
Let's try first a progression IV - I with a suspension. In C major:
IV F / C F A
Isus C / C F G
I C / C E G
The suspension is "prepared" by the R.H. "F",an essential tone, and in this case consonant, of the F major triad. The "F" over the "C" in the second chord is the suspension. It creates two dissonant intervals -- P4 above "C" (which is considered harmonically dissonant when the lower member is the bass) and a maj 2nd between F and G.
Finally, the suspension is resolved when the "F" descends a half step to "E", an essential consonant interval.
Classical suspensions are classed by the intervals of the suspension and resolution above the bass. Thus, the above is a "4 - 3" suspension. Others are the "7 - 8", "9 - 8" and the "6 - 5". You may say that in the "6 - 5" that the "6" is consonant with the bass. In this case, the 6th is less stable than the 5th and is not an essential part of the final harmony.
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That's what I'm talking about right there. Good explanation!!! :D
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Good explanation,
In a sus chord the third is replaced with the 2nd or 4th for sus2 or sus4. If you add the 2nd but the 3rd is still present it would be an add9.
I usually use sus2 for the chord IV and sus4 for the chord V.
For example, in the key of C, instead of using a classic progresion like "C Am F G" I use "C Am7 Fsus2 Gsus4". Using that chords the 1st and 5th are always present and it sounds very well.
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Ok now,
all the guys have said what I've been saying along except for Diverse:
Dirvese, for the sus2 , you use this formula : 2-3-5....& your explanation was that a suspension is when you take something up, hence the 1 is suspended, hence it's not there in a sus2....
I know that this is how aljeres & Hammondman! also understand & teach the sus2..
But then other teachers & software that's out there uses this formula:
1-2-5..
So please,can someone explain these clashes ?/? ?/?
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Ok now,
all the guys have said what I've been saying along except for Diverse:
Dirvese, for the sus2 , you use this formula : 2-3-5....& your explanation was that a suspension is when you take something up, hence the 1 is suspended, hence it's not there in a sus2....
I know that this is how aljeres & Hammondman! also understand & teach the sus2..
But then other teachers & software that's out there uses this formula:
1-2-5..
So please,can someone explain these clashes ?/? ?/?
O.K. mus, I'm going to assume that the 2-3-5 voicing Diverse is using is for the RH. THe root of the chord will mostly likely be played in the LH.
Now, the 1-2-5 voicing is mostly what guitar players do to make a sus2 chord. So, basically u got the piano players version and the guitar players version. Hope that helps.
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O.K. mus, I'm going to assume that the 2-3-5 voicing Diverse is using is for the RH. THe root of the chord will mostly likely be played in the LH.
Now, the 1-2-5 voicing is mostly what guitar players do to make a sus2 chord. So, basically u got the piano players version and the guitar players version. Hope that helps.
Thanks for trying to clear things up T..if that was the case, then I would be happy..
but I think Diverse would disagree with you.. :-\
Also the reason I say they think the root is not there at all (even in the LH) is because I saw in this vid by Hammondman!) he didn'd have the root at all & he called the chord a Csus2, that made me go ?/? ::) :-\
But I understand what you just said ;)
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Ok now,
all the guys have said what I've been saying along except for Diverse:
Dirvese, for the sus2 , you use this formula : 2-3-5....& your explanation was that a suspension is when you take something up, hence the 1 is suspended, hence it's not there in a sus2....
I know that this is how aljeres & Hammondman! also understand & teach the sus2..
But then other teachers & software that's out there uses this formula:
1-2-5..
So please,can someone explain these clashes ?/? ?/?
The confusion again lies with trying to compare the chord symbols to traditional theory. The 2-3-5 voicing can work as a 2 - 1 suspension. If you think about it, 2-3-5 is the third inversion 7th chord (without its 5th) built on the 3rd of the intended root. If C maj were our intended chord, E min7 is the 7th built on the third of C major. The effect would be similar if you did the 3rd inversion E min7 (with the 5th) resolving the D to the C of a C maj7.
This case is treating the harmony as a true suspension requiring a resolution. If it were not to resolve then we would never have a C anything. In contemporary harmony these so called "suspended" chords are not required to resolve, thus, if a C root is indicated then it will be present otherwise it is not a C chord and would probably more clearly written as "Em/D (no 5)".
The sus2 naming didn't really get a lot of use until the advent of 60's Brit Rock rock and roll. It is also sometimes referred to as an "add 2". The names for the "guitar" chord symbols at times seem to have been pulled out of a hat. This r and r usage is possibly the most common meaning of the "sus2"
One thing to consider also is that a I sus2 (using 1 - 2- 5) is an inversion of a V sus4. C sus2 = [C D G] G sus4 = [G C D]. Thus the chord is a bit of a hybrid acting both as I and V.
The most common suspensions do resolve DOWN (making the suspended note higher than the resolution) with the 7-8 suspension being the most common exception. Sometimes, this upwardly resolving suspension was called a "retardation" to distinguish the two types of resolution. But this just created two terms for a process that was functionally identical. You will never see a "ret 2" (retarded 2) chord. If not just for the fact that it would seem un-PC.
You will find in the case of chord symbols that there are some points of disagreement as to the exact meaning. These symbols were created as needed and different people sometimes came up with different names and symbols for the same thing as well as used the same symbols to mean different things.
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The confusion again lies with trying to compare the chord symbols to traditional theory. The 2-3-5 voicing can work as a 2 - 1 suspension. If you think about it, 2-3-5 is the third inversion 7th chord (without its 5th) built on the 3rd of the intended root. If C maj were our intended chord, E min7 is the 7th built on the third of C major. The effect would be similar if you did the 3rd inversion E min7 (with the 5th) resolving the D to the C of a C maj7.
This case is treating the harmony as a true suspension requiring a resolution. If it were not to resolve then we would never have a C anything. In contemporary harmony these so called "suspended" chords are not required to resolve, thus, if a C root is indicated then it will be present otherwise it is not a C chord and would probably more clearly written as "Em/D (no 5)".
The sus2 naming didn't really get a lot of use until the advent of 60's Brit Rock rock and roll. It is also sometimes referred to as an "add 2". The names for the "guitar" chord symbols at times seem to have been pulled out of a hat. This r and r usage is possibly the most common meaning of the "sus2"
One thing to consider also is that a I sus2 (using 1 - 2- 5) is an inversion of a V sus4. C sus2 = [C D G] G sus4 = [G C D]. Thus the chord is a bit of a hybrid acting both as I and V.
The most common suspensions do resolve DOWN (making the suspended note higher than the resolution) with the 7-8 suspension being the most common exception. Sometimes, this upwardly resolving suspension was called a "retardation" to distinguish the two types of resolution. But this just created two terms for a process that was functionally identical. You will never see a "ret 2" (retarded 2) chord. If not just for the fact that it would seem un-PC.
You will find in the case of chord symbols that there are some points of disagreement as to the exact meaning. These symbols were created as needed and different people sometimes came up with different names and symbols for the same thing as well as used the same symbols to mean different things.
Wow...History is very important...Now I understand the better why there is all this confusion 8) 8)
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Wow...History is very important...Now I understand the better why there is all this confusion 8) 8)
lol i hope i didn't confuse you! :o
8)
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I'll give this a shot. I can take correction if needed and some of this might be repeating what has already been said:
- 1-2-5 = _________________sus2
- 1-4-5 = _________________sus4
- 1-4-5-7 = _______________7sus4
- 1-2(9)-3-5 = ____________ Major add 9 (when the 3 is present, the 2 becomes a 9)
so a better way to say it is:
1-3-5-9
- 1-b3-5-7 = ______________ m/Maj7
- 1-b3-4(11)-5-b7,9 = ______ minor7,9,11 (when the 3 is present, the 4 becomes an 11)
so a better way to say it is:
1-b3-5-b7-9-11
8)
I got this perfectly CMoony :) ;)
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I got this perfectly CMoony :) ;)
Now, that's what i'm talkin' bout! 8)
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wow this post really took some deep turns
I apologize for not getting back to yall on this post
T-block is right I would probably use this chord
the 235
in my right hand against a root 1 in the bass
but the truth is that the 2 is actually a suspended one
that resolves or doesent back to the one
I got my information
from the mark harrison book pop piano
and from an old jazz teacher named jaki byard
an old school head well versed and had quite a few recordings
the problem with listening too deeply to the ideas from the younger cats
although extremely talented
unless they are trained (not self taught)
a lot of times you will get some different terminologies and concepts
not to say they are completely wrong
theories are just that theories
conjectures
and attempts to explain phenomena
in our case music phenomenon
so I dont know why aljiers or hammond man illustrated the sus2 the way they do
but I am willing to bet if we all got into a room together
we would walk out agreeing
because truth is truth and sometimes the way you see something is that way because of a particular perspective
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This is an excellent post.
Diverse, if I understand correctly, you have the 1 in the LH and 235 in the the RH. Wouldn't that be a add9 since the root and the 3rd are present. If you could, what would be your entire voicing for a chord like this because it seems that the chord has already resolved.
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Very Well said Diverse...great stuff 8)
This is an excellent post.
Diverse, if I understand correctly, you have the 1 in the LH and 235 in the the RH. Wouldn't that be a add9 since the root and the 3rd are present. If you could, what would be your entire voicing for a chord like this because it seems that the chord has already resolved.
I would also call it an add9 .
But I guess it depends on the sound 1 hears, & sometimes it doesn't sound right to end with a 1/2-3-5, in which case you want to resove that, say, to 1/1-3-5...
So in effect, it should really be the sound that dictates the name...If that is not the case, then 1 of these 2 proposed theories would have to give way for the other.
But like Diverse said, if we were all to be in 1 room & go through the stuff, we'd probably come out in agreement :)
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This is an excellent post.
Diverse, if I understand correctly, you have the 1 in the LH and 235 in the the RH. Wouldn't that be a add9 since the root and the 3rd are present. If you could, what would be your entire voicing for a chord like this because it seems that the chord has already resolved.
the sus2 and the add 9 are the same chord the difference is the sus 2 resolves to a regular major chord
the add 9 by function of its name just adds the 9
to the major chord and leaves it there
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I think it just comes down to whether or not the 3 is present.
No 3, you have sus2
With 3, you have add9
But i think yall know that. Yall just playin around. lol 8)
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I think it just comes down to whether or not the 3 is present.
No 3, you have sus2
With 3, you have add9
But i think yall know that. Yall just playin around. lol 8)
oh yeah that too
I slipped that one
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
like we used to say
ah doy!
(in my most mentally challenged voice)
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Whether it is a sus2, add2, or add9 also depends on who is writing the chord symbols in the music. Chord symbols are among the least standardized or consistent of any music term. If it is a guitarist writing them, then you may even see some stranger combinations.
The chord symbols tell little more than the group of notes that can be played. It tells nothing about voicing and do not always indicate the tensions (9, 11, 13) that can be used.
In general, use the chord symbols as a basic guide. From there you can work with different possibilities.
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Whether it is a sus2, add2, or add9 also depends on who is writing the chord symbols in the music. Chord symbols are among the least standardized or consistent of any music term. If it is a guitarist writing them, then you may even see some stranger combinations.
The chord symbols tell little more than the group of notes that can be played. It tells nothing about voicing and do not always indicate the tensions (9, 11, 13) that can be used.
In general, use the chord symbols as a basic guide. From there you can work with different possibilities.
i agree and disagree
yes it does seem to be open to interpretation
and yes if you see a seventh chord symbol
often you can add a ninth or an 11th even a 13th
however
today chart writers are often highly trained and learned musicians
many times they are graduates in music and hold masters degrees sometimes phd,s
they are employed by the record labels to put together the symbols and write out the lead sheets for the hit records
when this is the case the symbols tell you quite a bit
such as which tension should appear first in the chord based on how the chord is spelled
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i agree and disagree
yes it does seem to be open to interpretation
and yes if you see a seventh chord symbol
often you can add a ninth or an 11th even a 13th
however
today chart writers are often highly trained and learned musicians
many times they are graduates in music and hold masters degrees sometimes phd,s
they are employed by the record labels to put together the symbols and write out the lead sheets for the hit records
when this is the case the symbols tell you quite a bit
such as which tension should appear first in the chord based on how the chord is spelled
I do not dispute the fact that today's chart writers are often highly trained & learned musicians.
But still, I have to agree with everything Rspindy said...In my short time playing, I have experienced it..
for instance, if one gives you a chord, say like this:
Em7 (no 5)/CM7 (no3, no5)
this chord does not tell me the exact voicing of the chord that will make it sound as nice as the writer intended.
This is just the way I've expressed this particular voicing:
C-B/E-G-D
Now what is the possibility that you will ever find this chord named the way I've just named it (I did so so that the proper voicing would be played..Yet still, someone can twist it around to suit their positioning & it may lose the flavor I wanted to express.
We all know that what I've named above would be simply labelled as a "CM9 chord"..
Now how can we ever know the voicing the writer wanted us to play? where should the melody note be?
Ok, I'm sure the point is heard now.. :)
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I do not dispute the fact that today's chart writers are often highly trained & learned musicians.
But still, I have to agree with everything Rspindy said...In my short time playing, I have experienced it..
for instance, if one gives you a chord, say like this:
Em7 (no 5)/CM7 (no3, no5)
this chord does not tell me the exact voicing of the chord that will make it sound as nice as the writer intended.
This is just the way I've expressed this particular voicing:
C-B/E-G-D
Now what is the possibility that you will ever find this chord named the way I've just named it (I did so so that the proper voicing would be played..Yet still, someone can twist it around to suit their positioning & it may lose the flavor I wanted to express.
We all know that what I've named above would be simply labelled as a "CM9 chord"..
Now how can we ever know the voicing the writer wanted us to play? where should the melody note be?
Ok, I'm sure the point is heard now.. :)
If you ever saw a chord like that in a book you should make sure the chart writer never works again
most chart writers know that there are two goals one to make the chart as easy to read as possible'
and second on the list is to make it possible for the reader to be able to voice as accurately as possible the voicing
which is why we see so many slash chords in todays charts
I have made my living reading charts
literally
I began playing in churches as a full time musician before I knew many songs
so reading charts mainly the song books of richard smallwood
and wow gospel and kirk franklin
enabled me to perform my job well
moreover,
I was able to write chord charts from hymns
which allowed me to play the hymn very close to how it was written
this dual ability to both read and write charts
enabled me to work in big churches where reading was preferred
even though my reading was very poor with preparation I managed to do a good job
so You will never catch me bashing chord charts
My only advice to anyone who has difficulty is
stick with it
it took me over 6 months to learn my first song from a chord chart
I believe it took me nearly 7 months to learn total praise from the chord charts
but it was time well worth investing
now I can write a chord chart simply from hearing a record
I have several ways I can interpret any chart
and I can play a song on the fly from seeing a chord chart for the first time
there were some questions that you raised
where does the melody go?
if you read at all then you should read the melody in the right hand
on the choir voicings which will appear in most lead sheets
when in doubt read the actual chord
also voice your chord from the melody down as opposed to from the bass up
this way your melody will always be on the top and your arrangement will be better accepted
otherwise
just play some standard R&B voicings or jazz voicings
they should do very well
to be honest the R&B voicings seem to work better for most contemporary gospel charts
another big thing is time and groove
it is easy to lose the groove when looking at a chord chart especially when you are new to the game
always keep a groove going
some type of beat and syncopation that you have moving from measure to measure
there are many books that teach accompaniment styles to handle exactly this type of question
I like where this post is going because
the reading of chord charts is a very valuable skill and
I would hate to see anyone short change themselves
due to a few mishaps early on
trust me the charts are getting better and better
companies like verity and zomba
have very very very accurate charts
I have gone through many of them I have all the wow song books
and the majority of the song books written in the last 8 years
in he gospel genre
I can attest that the charts are very true to the original recordings
and the one or two chords that missed the mark is not worth giving up on chart reading
believe me
back in the days charts were hit or miss
which is why many older heads dont like charts
due to bad first impressions
but this is a new day
so pick up a wow book
and just start digging in
use your ears
and your eyes
and your heart
and learn a song better then you ever have before
how do I do it
I have chords that I know work (see many of my posts on left hand chords voicings
and phat voicings instantly
I play the melody at all times possible
unless I am backing up a choir
I always try to play chords or chord shells in my left hand
always groove whenever possible
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^^^
Wow! This post alone is so invaluable!!!I should print it out & show it to friends who will be interested to read it!
Just out of interest Diverse, how would you show this voicing on a chord chart:
C-B/ E-G-D..
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^^^
Wow! This post alone is so invaluable!!!I should print it out & show it to friends who will be interested to read it!
Just out of interest Diverse, how would you show this voicing on a chord chart:
C-B/ E-G-D..
C major 9? :-\
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C major 9? :-\
Yes SJ, it is a CM9, but my question is, how does one show that the voicing should be: C-B-E-G-D, with the C below & D on top like that as oppossed to C-D-E-G-B for instance or any other voicing.
This is an extract from my post prior to the last 1:
for instance, if one gives you a chord, say like this:
Em7 (no 5)/CM7 (no3, no5)
this chord does not tell me the exact voicing of the chord that will make it sound as nice as the writer intended.
This is just the way I've expressed this particular voicing:
C-B/E-G-D
I stated that that was probably the best way to express the voicing of this particular CM9, unless if you just chart it like this: C-B/E-G-D... :-X
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Yes SJ, it is a CM9, but my question is, how does one show that the voicing should be: C-B-E-G-D, with the C below & D on top like that as oppossed to C-D-E-G-B for instance or any other voicing.
This is an extract from my post prior to the last 1:
for instance, if one gives you a chord, say like this:
Em7 (no 5)/CM7 (no3, no5)
this chord does not tell me the exact voicing of the chord that will make it sound as nice as the writer intended.
This is just the way I've expressed this particular voicing:
C-B/E-G-D
Don't you simply get to make that choice as long as the necessary notes are there?
I stated that that was probably the best way to express the voicing of this particular CM9, unless if you just chart it like this: C-B/E-G-D... :-X
Don't you simply get to make that choice as long as the necessary notes are there?
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Don't you simply get to make that choice as long as the necessary notes are there?
No, sometimes a particular voicing is the best & you want that sound to come through.. If we change the bottom note for instance, it might sound very dif..also, sometimes a melody has to be on top..
I'm sure you know what I'm saying..
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No, sometimes a particular voicing is the best & you want that sound to come through.. If we change the bottom note for instance, it might sound very dif..also, sometimes a melody has to be on top..
I'm sure you know what I'm saying..
I do; and unless you're dealing with those two rules of thumb, I don't see where voicing should be an issue.
Now, when you say chord chart, I'm assuming you're not talking about reading musical notation. So, unless, in this case, the D is a part of the melody, you don't have to play it there, right?
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I do; and unless you're dealing with those two rules of thumb, I don't see where voicing should be an issue.
Now, when you say chord chart, I'm assuming you're not talking about reading musical notation. So, unless, in this case, the D is a part of the melody, you don't have to play it there, right?
yes...Correcto :)
But I was just proving a particular point that sometimes the writer might want to express a more open chord, which could sound sweeter than, say, if the chord was closed & it sounded all muddy.
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^^^
Wow! This post alone is so invaluable!!!I should print it out & show it to friends who will be interested to read it!
Just out of interest Diverse, how would you show this voicing on a chord chart:
C-B/ E-G-D..
cmaj9
this would let a person know that the chord should contain the maj7 and the D as the 9
it is up to them whether they should place each tone
that is the beauty of chord charts it allows room for individual taste and conceptualization
now if you wanted to really illustrate that you wanted a particular arrangement of tones
you would need to use figured bass
which most people dont know how to use these days
it is a classical method of notation
so you may write '
C: I7^
9
the little symbol tells the player that is the tone you want in the soprano
and the C tell you it is in the key of C
there fore the I tells the player it is the one chord in the key of c
and the 7 tells the person it is the 7 that is associated with the one chord which is major 7
in figured bass
everything is spelled out down to the exact inversion of every chord
but to be honest
just keep learning and practicing your voicings
and concentrate on playing the melody when you play chord charts
if you do that I promise you you will be playing beutiful music eventually
here are some other points that may help
when you see a minor 9
you dont always have to play a minor 9 most times you can get away with just the minor 7
or you can upgrade to a minor 11
for an added bite
when you see a dom7 chord you can play a sus7
also on most jazz charts not necessarily gospel charts
when you see extensions they are usually there because of the melody
so you can get away with playing just 9th chords
and still end up with a beautiful progression
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For instance:
Em7 (no 5)/CM7 (no3, no5)
This chord does not tell me the exact voicing of the chord that will make it sound as nice as the writer (The Great Musallio) intended.
This is just the way I've (The Great Musallio) expressed this particular voicing:
C-B/E-G-D
Now what is the possibility that you will ever find this chord named the way I've (The Great Musallio) just named it (I did so so that the proper voicing would be played.
We all know that what I've (The Great Musallio) named above would be simply labelled as a "CM9 chord"..
Now how can we ever know the voicing the writer (The Great Musallio) wanted us to play? where should the melody note be?
Yes SJ, it is a CM9, but my question is, how does one show that the voicing should be: C-B-E-G-D, with the C below & D on top like that as oppossed to C-D-E-G-B for instance or any other voicing.
I (The Great Musallio), stated that, that was probably the best way to express the voicing of this particular CM9, UNLESS IF YOU CHART IT LIKE THIS: C-B/E-G-D... :-X
Mus, to simplify, it seems that:
If you want "chords", you use chord charts (chord symbols)
If you want "voicings", you use notation
UNLESS (as you stated above), you chart it like this: "C-B/E-G-D". (http://easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-indifferent-smileys-746.gif) (http://easyfreesmileys.com/)
(Anything that works. Get in where you fit in) 8)
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Mus, to simplify, it seems that:
If you want "chords", you use chord charts (chord symbols)
If you want "voicings", you use notation
UNLESS (as you stated above), you chart it like this: "C-B/E-G-D". ([url]http://easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-indifferent-smileys-746.gif[/url]) ([url]http://easyfreesmileys.com/[/url])
(Anything that works. Get in where you fit in) 8)
You know, I really like that simplification. Very profound and to the point; well done.
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Mus, to simplify, it seems that:
If you want "chords", you use chord charts (chord symbols)
If you want "voicings", you use notation
UNLESS (as you stated above), you chart it like this: "C-B/E-G-D". ([url]http://easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-indifferent-smileys-746.gif[/url]) ([url]http://easyfreesmileys.com/[/url])
(Anything that works. Get in where you fit in) 8)
Very good.
I also like your use of LGM's text editing options. I find them overwhelming but you make full use of 'em. :)
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Wow Diverse..I'm sure glad I kept my hard head..look how much you've spilled 8)
As 4 U Seemuny:
(http://www.kingswayjm.herts.sch.uk/images/animated_king.gif)
(http://www.geocities.com/arlen_texas/koh2005_v6f_432.jpg)
Next time you want to make a dictator of someone, this is what will happen to you"
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:8Tb66lcFGP5FJM:http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinechild.jpg) (Fenix & crew dance to my word of stealth!)
-
now if you wanted to really illustrate that you wanted a particular arrangement of tones
you would need to use figured bass
which most people dont know how to use these days
it is a classical method of notation
so you may write '
C: I7^
9
the little symbol tells the player that is the tone you want in the soprano
and the C tell you it is in the key of C
there fore the I tells the player it is the one chord in the key of c
and the 7 tells the person it is the 7 that is associated with the one chord which is major 7
in figured bass
everything is spelled out down to the exact inversion of every chord
Man, u really taking me back to theory class now. I think we spent 2 whole semesters perfecting the figured bass system (reading & 4-part writing). That's how I stumbled onto progressions and used them to figure out this gospel stuff.
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yeah figured bass is deep
when you really get into it you can come up with some really beautiful reharmonizations for hyms that stay true to the genre of the hymn
in other words not just jazzy or pop reharmonizations
but actual classical authentic four part writing using many of the methods
truth be told the classical left hand voicing series
i am posting in the organ room
is based on the figured bass system
i think a lot of people are sleeping on it
but that is ok i am going to present it and then leave it those who catch it catch it those who miss it miss it
na mean
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yeah figured bass is deep
when you really get into it you can come up with some really beautiful reharmonizations for hyms that stay true to the genre of the hymn
in other words not just jazzy or pop reharmonizations
but actual classical authentic four part writing using many of the methods
truth be told the classical left hand voicing series
i am posting in the organ room
is based on the figured bass system
i think a lot of people are sleeping on it
but that is ok i am going to present it and then leave it those who catch it catch it those who miss it miss it
na mean
Fa sho!!! I didn't even know u had the classical stuff in the organ room, I'm gonna go check that out man.
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You guys are AMAZING!!! :o :o :o :o :o
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You know, I really like that simplification. Very profound and to the point; well done.
'Preciate it brotha. I equate "simplicity" with "blessing". lol
Everytime i see "confusion" i feel cursed. But everytime i see "simplicity" i feel blessed again. lol (http://easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-indifferent-smileys-746.gif) (http://easyfreesmileys.com/)
Even though i don't always personally hit the mark...lol
Very good.
I also like your use of LGM's text editing options. I find them overwhelming but you make full use of 'em. :)
Thank you Brotha (as The Great Musallio would call you "Fenbox") lol
Yeah, i like the options of the text editing that's provided. It allows you to effectively "emphasize & stress" ideas where needed (if you have the energy to use it lol). It's rewarding if it works out right. 8)
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Wow Diverse..I'm sure glad I kept my hard head..look how much you've spilled 8)
As 4 U Seemuny:
([url]http://www.kingswayjm.herts.sch.uk/images/animated_king.gif[/url])
([url]http://www.geocities.com/arlen_texas/koh2005_v6f_432.jpg[/url])
Next time you want to make a dictator of someone, this is what will happen to you"
([url]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:8Tb66lcFGP5FJM:http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinechild.jpg[/url]) (Fenix & crew dance to my word of stealth!)
Ok, "The Great Musallio"....Put Down The Weapon!, i repeat, Put Down The Weapon Immediately!
And put your hat & gloves on! What's the matter with you! :o
8)
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Ok, "The Great Musallio"....Put Down The Weapon!, i repeat, Put Down The Weapon Immediately!
And put your hat & gloves on! What's the matter with you! :o
8)
Ok C$$$, (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:alg3OU6jC18ZnM:http://bp1.blogger.com/_DkDAmCqUUz8/RsghF7Rw32I/AAAAAAAAADU/F3reQYWl4Qo/s400/surrender.jpg) I surrender!
As 4 diverse, sir, U've been a true blessing both here & in the organ room.
I like the fact that you're "not sitting on that stuff"...
I really appreciate your work..
I'd like to learn more about this figured bass stuff & the notation..It's all so facinating 8)
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I'd like to learn more about this figured bass stuff & the notation..It's all so facinating 8)
Here are some links that can help ya mus (and anyone else interested):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass)
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory18.htm (http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory18.htm)
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Here are some links that can help ya mus (and anyone else interested):
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass[/url])
[url]http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory18.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory18.htm[/url])
T, i thought we had an agreement where you would no longer help other people but me. :-\ ?/?
Now here i find you posting remarkably helpful articles that helps other folk. Wassup? ?/? ?/? ?/?
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T, i thought we had an agreement where you would no longer help other people but me. :-\ ?/?
Now here i find you posting remarkably helpful articles that helps other folk. Wassup? ?/? ?/? ?/?
Ummm...I seem to have forgotten any such agreement, LOL.
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Here are some links that can help ya mus (and anyone else interested):
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass[/url])
[url]http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory18.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory18.htm[/url])
Awesome Stuff man!!! pity now I have all this & other stuff to catch up on!! ;D 8)
T, i thought we had an agreement where you would no longer help other people but me. :-\ ?/?
Now here i find you posting remarkably helpful articles that helps other folk. Wassup? ?/? ?/? ?/?
hehehe...A loser yet again(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:mkpk4CornvhLeM:http://www.mushroomvillage.com/sitepics/20077alg.jpg)
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I've been away playing a musical so haven't been able to chime in lately.
I just wanted to add a note about figured bass. Figured bass only indicates the notes to be used above a bass. It does so by indicating the intervals to be used above the bass (all within a 9th). It does not indicate the voicing or doublings involved. That was the reason for such books on thorough bass / figured bass by the likes of C. P. E. Bach (The True Art of Keyboard Playing -- I'll not give the German name. It takes about a half page.)
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I've been away playing a musical so haven't been able to chime in lately.
I just wanted to add a note about figured bass. Figured bass only indicates the notes to be used above a bass. It does so by indicating the intervals to be used above the bass (all within a 9th). It does not indicate the voicing or doublings involved. That was the reason for such books on thorough bass / figured bass by the likes of C. P. E. Bach (The True Art of Keyboard Playing -- I'll not give the German name. It takes about a half page.)
Wow, another insightful idea..
Can't wait for you to come back.
I hope all goes well in the musical.