LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Drummers => Topic started by: fenderjazz on September 29, 2005, 03:25:00 PM
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Time and again I've observed topics like "Should church musicians be paid?" and "Is it wrong to play secular music?" pop up here at LGM and they always become the most interesting and heated discussions. God's people have a wide range of talents in the creative arts and beyond. Many of us even pursue careers that relate to our talents. However, why does it seem like music is the only form of talent that we question as a legitimate profession for a Christian?
It's like if we see a child who can draw or write stories we say " You should go to school for that. You can make some money when you grow up." but if a child can play an instrument it's like "Only play at church and your reward shall be in Heaven." I'm just wondering why it's so common for music to be looked at so differently from everything else among believer's of the Christian faith. :D
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Wow that's a good question I want to see an answer also.
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That's a question that I've pondered over for a while. I feel the same way about music careers. Music is not the only gift that God has given His children so why is it deemed that way. There are people that God blessed to be great speakers and they may become a great Orator (and get paid for it). Do you think God is upset with them because they didn't become a preacher? God has blessed some with great leadership ability and he/she may become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Do you think God is mad at them for not becoming a pastor of a MegaChurch? Honestly, I don't think so. I think it's unfair to limit God to just a church setting, we've been preaching to the choir for years. There's a harvest of souls that we haven't touched yet and if God chooses to bless you with a gift that can be used outside of the four walls of the church then so be it. If the added blessing and the result of obedience is a paycheck then why turn that away? I thank God and I admire people who take their gifts outside the church, hadn't it been that way we wouldn't have great movies like "The Gospel" or "Woman Thou Art Loosed", etc. Throughout scripture, God showed himself in many forms-- a pillar of fire, a glory cloud, a burning bush, a still small voice, the only begotten Son, so why make Him one dimensional when it comes to ministry?
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I definitely agree with everything you said sugabear. People do not understand what God says about this in the Bible. I know some are thinkin now like, "God said you should pay the musicians?". He did not say it like that directly in His word, but he addressed a similar issue. There are actually 13 tribes of Israel. The reason why people do not realize this is because they always include the Levites, but in actuality, the Levites did not have their own land. The Levites were the high priests, musicians, and just the overall caretakers of the Tabernacle. When it was time to move, they were the ones who were to move it, and not anyone else. Their inheritance came from a tenth of each of the other tribes' belongings and things of that sort. When God said to bring the tithes so that there may be meat in his house, he did not mean that he wanted to eat it. This was for the tribe of Levi. So, in turn, when dealing with our situation, it is a Biblical principal to get paid for our services of bringing music to the people of God. He did not say to the tribe of Levi, "Just do it and maybe I'll bless you here and there for your faithfulness." What he did was have the tithes and offerings to the tabernacle be for the taking care of the people who did the work in his Tabernacle. If there are anymore questions about this, just let me know and I'll be sure to post more.
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I asked myself that same question, should christians get paid to do ministry. Jesus got paid as well, when he ministered the people that he ministered to provided food, shelter and whatever else it was that he needed. Besides, it's not like christians get paid to live off of it alone. Most of the time the money that we are blessed with doesn't even cover most of what we need. When a singer minister's in song, does a concert or whatever, yes they get paid, offering, love token or whatever. But guess what, most of the time that helps them to get to their next location that they need to minister at. We can't be too quick to ask questions sometimes we just need to sit back and think about it. When people minister they need a place to eat, sleep and focus on God so that they may minister to us. I am so greatful for a lot of artist, because they don't always go perform and get what they expected, but they still make it to their next destination to make sure that we get ministered to so that we can grow. I hope I helped you out in some way. I wondered the same thing though, just think about it.
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well to tell u the truth i think gettin paid might build up the flesh even more so instead of playin for god u might start playin for the money 8O :cry:
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well to tell u the truth i think gettin paid might build up the flesh even more so instead of playin for god u might start playin for the money 8O :cry:
so tru, i totaly agree...
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But the bible says your gift will make room for u and the Lord has done that from me. when I get a gig, I don't tel people I demand this certain amount. They tell me they are going to pay me, because they respect my craft. And if someone is "fleshy" about gettin money, the Lord will deal with them on that.
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I know I said I would stay away from topics like this on another post but you guys have made some very good points and they shouldn't be overlooked. As some of you guys know, I do not get paid at my church but I do get some sort of an offering. It is ungrateful not to accept it and also, whoever said that the offerings or money that you get sometimes isn't enough, is right but at the same time you can use it for your ministry. If they gave me a $50 offering after a Conference that I've played at, I'll accept it and run to the nearest GC and buy a video, sticks or new set of heads. God will bless you financially and spiritually because let's be real about something, if you were offered $50 right on the spot; would you take it or leave it? :roll: I hope that we can go over this in a mature way so that it doesn't get out of hand and gets locked. 8)
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Jfunky, I feel you. I try to stay away from these types of discussion as well but as Micheal Corleone said "They keep pulling me back in!!" :) Additionally, I just had a recent conversation with a musician on this very topic and it's something I've been struggling with personally. Anyways, this is for those that will accept it.
Plain and simple. Yes, musicians should be paid for their ministry. (I won't quote the plethora of scriptures to back up this statement at this time) Unfortunately and realistically, most churches have not reached the financial level where they can pay musicians adequately or even full-time. While other churches take advantage of musicians b/c they believe that music is just an "incidental" and do not understand the power a strong music ministry would have on the overall ministry of the church.
However, let's be real here for a minute. If I'm a great writer and recognize that God has given me the talent but I decide to write erotic poetry or erotic books as a career, is that pleasing to God? If I'm a creative person and I have a talent to be behind the camera and recognize that God has given me the talent to create films but all of my films are for adult entertainment purposes, is that pleasing to God? If I'm a great orator and I go around the country and teach my audience to embrace and live by the principles of secular humanism[but I'm a Christian 8O], is that pleasing to God? If I'm a creative person and work in the advertising business, and I create commercials or print ads for tobacco use or alcoholic beverages, is that pleasing to God? Most of us would state that the above situations are not pleasing to God
Nevertheless, if I play secular music, 95% of which is about SEX and others things directly contrary to the Word [again recognizing that God has given me the talent], somehow that's alright :? :? I constantly hear the statement "it's just a job" from all my friends in the secular music industry. But it's also a choice. Simply b/c that person does not lose the ability to play the instrument in a dynamic way has no bearing on whether God is pleased. Just b/c God tolerates it does not necessarily mean that it is pleasing to him i.e., look at the discussion that Jesus had with the Pharisees regarding divorce. Matt 19:1-8.
We make choices everyday whether to please God or ignore him. Some choices are more poignant than others. The gifts of God are w/o repentance and it's up to us how we use the gift He has given us. God will not violate or override the human will, he asks us to submit to Him.
The Bible declares that before Jesus returns again that there will be a "great falling away". II Thess. 2:3. This passage is referring to us, Christians, saved, sanctified folk. Let's not rationalize and justify our decisions but make sure that all we do is in accordance with the Word. I hope that I have not been too preachy (which can be a turn-off to some) but just made you think clearly on the subject. God Bless.
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When it comes to myself, I have boundaries when it comes to using my gift outside of the church. Honestly, I can't fully submit my gift to secular music because my heart is with the church and God's people, so I'd rather submit it fully there. However, if I do decide to use my gift outside of the church, you better believe I'm, and I think everyone else, will/should choose gigs very carefully. With me, it comes down to the message that I'm promoting. Will I get behind a message of sex, drugs, crime, and self indulgence? No, that's where I draw the line. But if the music is sending a positive message or just expressing the joy of playing pure unadulterated music, then I'm there. I think it safe to say that every secular song shouldn't be supported by a Christian musicians. No your limit. It's like God blessing someone with entrepreneurship ability and theydecide to market and franchise illegal drugs. You're abusing your gift to glorify evil and promote self destruction, but what if you use it to build your own clothing business. Is it wrong then? Undeniably, no. It's up to individuals to know your boundaries.
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I appreciate everyone's responses but I think I was a little unclear about the question that I wanted to raise in my original post. I wasn't really trying to get at weather musicians should be paid or not. I'm mainly try to figure out why music as a profession is looked upon with a lot more scrutiny than any other profession that Christians may choose to pursue. It's like music is the only talent that people feel should be used exclusively to glorify God while other talents can be used to glorify God and make a living in the world also.
Of course I don't think we should go to the extreme of playing for an artist like Lil Jon and the East Side Boys. However, there are many other avenues that are considered secular but are not necessarily unwholesome. For example, film scoring, theater music, classical, jazz, jingles, etc. Why is music the only form of talent that is often expected to be exclusively reserved for church or the gospel genre? :D
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Such topics are very hard to answer. I know of many people/ personal friends who once where playing in church, who now play secular.
So far I as am concerned it is a matter of the person's faith and how far the person believes God can carry him through.
The parable of the sower describes what the situation is all about.
Mark 4: 10 -20. Prov 3 : 5,6
I really judge no one though because faced with a situation like this I do not know how I would. This is a tough decision to call.
Another thing which I have realised is those who are in the gospel music industry or play in church are unfairly targeted/ mistreated, underpaid (intentionally/unintentionally) by our own - so they run to where they seem to be "appreciated".
Most us of have a secular jobs working for the "World System" we hate or profess to hate. Don't you think we should be removing the log from our eyes? I am have friends who are computer programmers - churning out code for defence companies, who in turn are selling trigger systems for arms. I have friends who are stacking shelves for multi -billion companies; who are exploiting poor African farmers and consumers alike.
So where were does it end. For me it's a tough call.
The best Job is working for God. Full time ministry
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I also would like to ask why is it that we only think in the smaller terms of gigging for other people? There's a whole world outside of just playing other people's gigs and there's a whole world outside of R&B artists that only sing about sex and lust. We could be the one's writing and performing film scores. It could be us writing and playing that music you hear when you turn to your favorite sitcom. It could be us playing in the pit at those big time plays on Broadway. Sex filled R&B is just one type of music and smoke filled clubs are just one place where music is performed. Someone here might have the potential to be the greatest classical composer since Mozart and never realize it because their talent doesn't fit the gospel genre and they get the impression that there's no other avenues for them.:D
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I'm mainly try to figure out why music as a profession is looked upon with a lot more scrutiny than any other profession that Christians may choose to pursue.
I bet if we took a poll, the vast majority of Christians would not see a problem with a gospel musician taking a secular gig playing with somebody like Herbie Hancock, Kenny G or Maceo Parker. Unfortunately, writers are not clearly defining their issue at the beginning of their thread.
When I say “secular music”, I’m not even thinking about 50 Cent or Lil Jon. I’m thinking about Herbie Hancock. On the other hand, 50 Cent is exactly what comes to mind for some people when the word “secular” comes up. These threads have been all about people taking a faulty assumption and using perfectly sound logic to arrive at a completely irrelevant response.
In short, we just all need to be talking about the same thing!
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So far, so good. I like the way everyone is responding to this man. See, this is how we can communicate with each other. All you cats are real mature, I can tell. Very good. Keep 'em coming and keep it clean. 8)
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I'm mainly try to figure out why music as a profession is looked upon with a lot more scrutiny than any other profession that Christians may choose to pursue.
To answer that specific question, musicians receive more scrutiny because it's such a fulfilling profession compared to others. Many musicians here are all but pissed off at the thought of taking money for playing for the church.
For example, playing for the church is much more fulfilling then doing tax returns. God may have called George to do tax returns. God may have called Stan to be a gospel musician. Do we ever question George’s right to demand hefty compensation for his tax filings? No, because his job is not as fulfilling as Stan’s profession as a musician. Stan would probably work for free if he had to do so, as proven by many posts on this site. George most likely would not.
A gospel musician may feel as though his payment is watching people receive God’s presence. People working secular jobs seldom receive such payment.
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rtight!
be specific, don't make generalities
and as for the ones who say if you get paid it could build the flesh and you could start to play for the money- the pay is not the problem it is the symptom
the problem is deeper and the devil will find a way to exploit it, if that person would get affected by the money that way, they'd be affected by other things in that way too. if they're not playing for the money they will be playing for the attentionor the glory or compliments or girls, you know, all the other stuff that can be a temptation to musicians
so really the pay is not the problem, it is the character.
so there really isn't a problem with paying musicians if you make sure theyre heart is right, because it is not like the other motives aren't as bad as playing for the money, actually the others can be more dangerous because they go unnoticed more easily and can affect ministry longer.
if you make sure that person is right then you know you won't have to worry about ANY of the mess (from money to taking glory)or their mess messing with the ministry
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and for the record, i have been playing for my church a looooong time-(se 4 yrs old), and i have never been paid, even when other musicians were. but i've never thought twice about it becuase i have always felt fortunate to be able to enter God's prescence in a manner that is #1 on my "things i love" list. and i always knew that i was blessing HIM and his people.
i really thank God for keeping me from the nasty attitudes and mindsets- because i definately could have fallen into the trap easily, but he kept me in his grace.
PRAISE HIM :D
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A gospel musician may feel as though his payment is watching people receive God’s presence. People working secular jobs seldom receive such payment.
.....and what a payment and feeling. It feels soooooo gooooood when the Holy Spirit takes over the service and people just get blessed from their head to the toes. It's worth more than anything in this world to be a part of that. I love to see the Ministers of Music get swallowed by the Power of God and then transfer that to the congregation through their instruments. Wow! Thank you Jesus. I worship you Father!!!!
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A gospel musician may feel as though his payment is watching people receive God’s presence. People working secular jobs seldom receive such payment.
.....and what a payment and feeling. It feels soooooo gooooood when the Holy Spirit takes over the service and people just get blessed from their head to the toes. It's worth more than anything in this world to be a part of that. I love to see the Ministers of Music get swallowed by the Power of God and then transfer that to the congregation through their instruments. Wow! Thank you Jesus. I worship you Father!!!!
See? I think that's the root of the reason right there for the scrutiny. How many times does that happen in a secular job? No amount of money could buy that feeling.
(I still think church musicians should be paid nicely though.)
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When I say “secular music”, I’m not even thinking about 50 Cent or Lil Jon. I’m thinking about Herbie Hancock. On the other hand, 50 Cent is exactly what comes to mind for some people when the word “secular” comes up. These threads have been all about people taking a faulty assumption and using perfectly sound logic to arrive at a completely irrelevant response.
I think that playhear brings up a very good point here. When I think say secular music, I am not thinking of those type guys either.
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To answer that specific question, musicians receive more scrutiny because it's such a fulfilling profession compared to others. Many musicians here are all but pissed off at the thought of taking money for playing for the church.
:D I totally agree with you Playhear but would you agree that anyone who has a career based on their own particular talent feels just as fulfilled as we do with music? If so, why do we musicians get the brunt of the scrutiny? For instance, I'm an artist as well as a musician and I make my living in both fields. Doing art is just as fulfilling for me as music. However, I've never heard anyone say I should only draw and paint to the glory of God but I've heard these kind of statements about music as far back as I can remember. What's really going on :?: :D
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:D is ANYONE feeling me on my post on the first page about if musicians should get paid - it is not if you pay it is the character.
anyone??????
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I totally agree with you Playhear but would you agree that anyone who has a career based on their own particular talent feels just as fulfilled as we do with music?
Naw, it's just not the same bro. I'm an attorney because I feel like this is where God has called me. This legal industry is just nothing like being a creative artist or musician, man. The legal industry is filled with snakes and gators all over the place. I try to stay true to the reason I got into this field in the first place. I seldom experience the types of things that musicians talk about. I'm also a part-time musician. So, I get a glimpse of how fulfilling being a musician is. I thank God for the talent and blessings he’s given me. However, the industries are just not comparable.
If so, why do we musicians get the brunt of the scrutiny? For instance, I'm an artist as well as a musician and I make my living in both fields. Doing art is just as fulfilling for me as music. However, I've never heard anyone say I should only draw and paint to the glory of God but I've heard these kind of statements about music as far back as I can remember. What's really going on :?: :D
The art analogy throws in a good point. My guess is that if you were up in the middle of service painting this wonderful masterpiece of the congregation, Christians would be scrutinizing your art career as well. However, your artwork is not in the front and center and moving people like your fills on the drums (or other instrument).
I'm not an artist. However, I imagine that making art for a living has a lot to do with creating things from the heart. In law and other similar professions, the heart has nothing to do with what you’re doing most of the time. A lawyer has to deal with many uncontrollable evil forces, such as nasty opposing counsel, racist judges and gold digging divorcees. Hey, somebody has to do it. Many clients that I take on a pro bono basis don’t even appreciate the free services I’m giving them. So, again, with painting, you’re talking about a different beast.
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The fundamental answer to your question is that music is arguably the most powerful force on Earth. Music goes directly to your soul and can change your emotions, i.e. we're all familiar with the story of David playing his harp for Saul who had a vexing spirit within. For us athletes on this board, don't you use music to get you pumped up to play. Don't people play music to get in the "mood" with their significant others (who should be their WIVES :lol: :lol: ) Rarely is there a movie or commercial devoid of music.
As Christians we understand that music sets the atmosphere for worship and can literally usher in God's presence and get the audience ready to hear and accept the Word. That is why Christian musicians are under such heavy scrutiny b/c we are deemed to have this understanding of the importance of music yet how can we not realize why Satan would have us use this very talent to propogate an anti-Christian message.
Here's where people will part company with me and I'll probably be accused of being "too deep." However, this was a process and I still struggle with it.
Some would argue that any form of music that does not have as its emphasis the spreading of the good news of Jesus Christ (gospel) or magnifying God and His Spirit is unacceptable. I will say that music even w/o words carries spirits and those of us that recognize this realize that we have to be careful what we lend our musical talents to. Satan attacks in degrees and realizes that we all see 50 cents and Usher as potraying a downright "evil" message [far end of the spectrum] but that some will see Kenny G and Herbie Hancock [mostly instrumentalists] as innocuous or harmless.
I believe in "Gospel" or spiritual jazz, meaning a bunch of saved musicians putting out what would be categorized as a jazz project b/c the music fits that genre or form. But playing jazz for the sake of jazz behind an artist such as a Miles Davis (who was often high or drunk in writing his music) What spirit was leading him to create his music? The spirit of the author follows the music. [we are wrestling against spirits and principalities] Do I recognize that it would it be an honor to be called by Miles, of course? He was a MUSICAL GENIUS. And I would talk to him and try to convert him in a godly and loving fashion during the interview and audition. I just would not lend my musical talent to his music if chosen.
BTW, I am not imposing this view on anyone or criticizing anyone so don't get me wrong. Again, I'm just trying to bring a higher level of thought and discussion to the topic.
God Bless.
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DESQ,
I'm not sure if I agree, but I get your point. I have a question for you. Do you think a blind listener would be able to identify the evil "spirit" in Miles Davis's music without knowledge of Miles’ background?
I think the evil spirit you’re suggesting is an afterthought based on your knowledge of Miles’ background. However, note that you started your post by talking about the fundamentals and the basics of music. In my opinion, the fundamental music coming out of Miles’ trumpet is pure and straight from God. Miles Davis is a shining example of how God can use ungodly people as a vessel for sending His music. God does things that our most brilliant minds can’t even imagine.
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But playing jazz for the sake of jazz behind an artist such as a Miles Davis (who was often high or drunk in writing his music) What spirit was leading him to create his music? The spirit of the author follows the music. [we are wrestling against spirits and principalities]
You made a very insightful post with many valid points, but for the sake of a good discussion let me throw this in the pot:
Throughout the years some of the best gospel music has been written by drug users and homosexuals. 8O (It hurts me to say it) Many times we sing these same songs in our churches and the annointing is high and people get blessed through these songs. We run, shout, dance and all that good stuff. So how much does the spirit of the author actually follow the music? What's the difference in playing a jazz tune written by a drug addict and hymn written by a homosexual? (I'm not trying to throw off on anyone):D
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Throughout the years some of the best gospel music has been written by drug users and homosexuals. 8O (It hurts me to say it) Many times we sing these same songs in our churches and the annointing is high and people get blessed through these songs. We run, shout, dance and all that good stuff. So how much does the spirit of the author actually follow the music? What's the difference in playing a jazz tune written by a drug addict and hymn written by a homosexual? (I'm not trying to throw off on anyone):D
Yeah, God has a cruel sense of humor. We think we have Him figured out. We don't know anything.
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playhear wrote the following:
DESQ,
I'm not sure if I agree, but I get your point. I have a question for you. Do you think a blind listener would be able to identify the evil "spirit" in Miles Davis's music without knowledge of Miles’ background?
I think the evil spirit you’re suggesting is an afterthought based on your knowledge of Miles’ background. However, note that you started your post by talking about the fundamentals and the basics of music. In my opinion, the fundamental music coming out of Miles’ trumpet is pure and straight from God. Miles Davis is a shining example of how God can use ungodly people as a vessel for sending His music. God does things that our most brilliant minds can’t even imagine.
My response:
I will never put God in a box b/c he is WAY beyond my intellectual abilities and can do whatever, whenever being the Sovereign One. Nevertheless, with that being said, God will not violate his own Word.
I believe the answer to your question is yes. Miles truly had GOD-given talent. That's evident and beyond dispute. We all recognize that it is God that gives talent, not Satan. Whatever talent we have is from GOD. But are we using the talent to bring glory to God?
I will try to give a parallel and hope it fits. God created the heavens and the earth, etc. etc. At the end of the creation God saw that everything he had created was good. Satan came along and through tempation brought corruption to what God had created to magnify God alone. Satan is anti-God and did not want God to receive his proper glory. The same with Miles' talent. He was born with a God-given talent that was meant to magnify and lift up the Most High only. However, because of Satan, Miles' talent became corrupted and the spirit of corruption infiltrated Mile's music, which while good and pleasing to the natural ear, is unpleasing to the spirit man and God. Thus, if the spirit is wrong or "evil" can what proceedeth from that spirit be righteous.
Yes, the bible states in Psalms "let everything that hath breath praise the Lord" and sets forth the various instruments that we can use to praise God. But Jesus augmented this statement in the New Testament (John 4:23) that true worshippers must worship God in spirit and in truth.
Remember, Jesus rebuked Peter who had a right reason to protect Jesus at all costs from his suffering and death but a wrong spirit b/c it was in opposition to God's plan. (Matt 16: 21-23). Also, recall the Spirit had just recently came over Peter and he proclaimed Jesus the Christ (Matt 16:13-20). So the spirit controlling Peter had changed.
So I believe that the spirit of the vessel creating the music follows the music which is evident and obvious when words accompany the music, but may not be evident when it is just an instrumental. Hope this makes sense.
BTW, I thank playhear for allowing me to share my opinion without ridiculing me and resorting to name calling. I wish all discussions on this board would be this way. God Bless you playhear.
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fenderjazz,
I agree with your thought. Let me add, hopefully without wavering, that Paul stated that there are those who preach the Gospel for spite, in other words for the wrong reasons, but God will still get the glory. There is a difference between a fallen person creating music to glorify God and one creating music to just glorify the flesh even though both musical talents come from God. A person can receive deliverance through a crackhead or homosexual preacher b/c the Word will not fail b/c of the vessel. God will not allow this to happen. There are some scriptures I vaguely recall but I do not have time to list them now.
Anyways, this is just my humble opinion (with some scriptural backing next time) and I pray that God gets the glory in this discussion. No one truly knows the mind of the Lord, "are ways are not his ways." But I believe what I just stated has a grain of truth and is correct (at least I hope :wink: )
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DESQ,
I have thoroughly read you post, which is duly supported by scripture. I think the basic point you’re trying to make is that instrumentals, such as a Miles masterpiece, is perhaps the most deceptive way for Satan to influence us. That’s a novel point. However, I still have to respectfully disagree with your point in regards to Miles Davis and similar artists.
I can’t honestly say that a blind listener would be able to listen to a Miles masterpiece and identify an evil spirit. I really would like to agree with you because it would clear up a lot of issues in my head. However, I just can’t after listening to some of Miles’ masterpieces.
I’m not talking only about Miles’ god-given talent. I’m talking about what Miles is actually playing as well. Miles is nothing more than a vessel for God’s music. That’s it. It’s an uncomfortable concept for me to grasp because I ask myself why doesn’t God talk only through his followers. I have accepted the idea that God can use ungodly people to talk directly to us. That’s where we differ I guess.
This discussion is so interesting that perhaps it’s worthy of careful treatment in a published book. Do you think many people would buy it?
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Whooooaaaa!!! This is a deep thought provoking post. Let me try and add my thoughts to this post. I think the reason the musical profession is so scrutinized when it comes to Christians being a part of it is because today's culture is heavily influenced by music, to be more specific Hiphop and R&B, and when it comes to those particular genres 95% of the message is corrupt. I wouldn't say that this type of music is anymore corrupt than any other profession, but it's what dominates our media, be it television, radio, movies, and things of that sort. So, when it comes to musicians playing secular music, forget about all the diverse paths that you can take in secular music, what comes to the majority's mind is what's dominant in our culture, R&B and Hiphop, as well as other genres I can't think of. I agree somewhat with what DESQ is saying, but do you think that just as Miles Davis' music, intentionally or unintentionally, could dispatch spirits to his listeners, that hypocritical gospel artist who don't live the life could dispatch the same demonic forces regardless of what's being sung (a particular phrase comes to mind-- Strange Fire)?
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Let's get something straight here. When God gives a person a gift, being a talent of some sort, he does not take it back. It's a promise. A preacher who is in sin and has a special gift from God of healing, can heal another person through His mercy unless that person knows that the preacher is in sin and he knows he is wrong. You guys are talking about evil spirits moving even through instrumental music; It doesn't matter if a person is blind or not, if that person is connected to God, He will let you know what is behind the music. If the person is not connected to God and what I mean is living in the spirit and looking at things through the spirit, they are blind and just see it as instrumental music. The flesh does not get along with things of the spirit and the spirit does not get along with things of the flesh. Here's a simple example: does your body like to pray and read the Bible? No. When you start praying you tend to get tired and sleepy, right? What I'm trying to say is that the flesh cannot see or hear the things of the spirit. If you're in tune with the Holy Spirit, he will let you know what is behind a musician even if the person is blind in the sense that he didn't know who Miles Davis was. I'm not going to go on and say that Miles is the Devil but everyone knows that he struggled with demons and possesions of demonic force. I'm not going to lie to you, it's true.
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I agree somewhat with what DESQ is saying, but do you think that just as Miles Davis' music, intentionally or unintentionally, could dispatch spirits to his listeners, that hypocritical gospel artist who don't live the life could dispatch the same demonic forces regardless of what's being sung (a particular phrase comes to mind-- Strange Fire)?
Sugarbear, absolutley. I have seen many Praise & Worship singers and musicians that sing and play wonderful but there is NO annointing and NO POWER whatsoever in the music they are playing or singing. The reason may be that they are either in adultery, fornication, or just have an evil root of anger towards a person and what they are doing is transferring all of that to the congregation. It becomes a struggle to get the congregation to a worship mode because what's being transferred is not what they are singing or playing. This is the catch, they think no one knows but God has special people in the church that know. They know because God either has revealed it to them on the spot or he has given them a dream or something but they know. There are people in churches that are quiet and say nothing but you know that they are truly filled with the Holy Spirit and are in tune with God and are seeing and hearing everything with their spiritual eyes and ears. You know what those people do? Pray. They pray for God to have mercy upon those who are not right before the Lord. Kirk Franklin once said on an interview that he struggled with porn. No one knew. He had a lot of Gospel Hits. Here's the difference; God was working with him and cleaning him up because no one is perfect. He says no one knew. I say that the right people knew but instead of telling the church, they prayed and God did a miracle in His life. His annointing is greater now. If you don't believe me, watch the Rebirth of Kirk Franklin DVD.
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I don't mean to get off the main topic but I do want to answer what some of you guys are asking. Read this and apply it to your life as a Christian and as a Gospel Minister.
Romans Chapter 8 verses 5 - 10
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.
Be encouraged and I pray that our music is transferring life, peace, love, joy and happiness to others through the Spirit that dwells in us :!: :D
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I'm not as well-versed in scripture as some of you probably are so maybe someone can help me understand this. I know that music can change the way people feel and I know the story about David playing for Saul. Do good or evil spirits literally travel through music? Is there a scriptoral reference for this? I kinda think that the benefit or harm of different types of music is not that a spirit is literally riding the sound waves but that the music causes our minds to focus and entertain certain thoughts good or bad.
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Do good or evil spirits literally travel through music?
I would say no.
I'm thinking about posting some instrumentals and asking people if they can identify which tracks allegedly have the evil spirits. Do you think that's a good idea?
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I don't see an issue with musicians' getting paid to play in church. If you went to school and practiced for 1000's of hours why wouldn't you be paid? Do you go to work and work for free?
If you want to play for a church for free (and that's whats in your heart) then do it! Follow you heart.
I don't understand why people label Christians to be free hearted weak people who give all they got and leave with nothing. If you call a contractor to put an addition on the church will he put it up for free?
The bibles says, "The man who doesn't work, doesn't eat."
Joy
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I'm not as well-versed in scripture as some of you probably are so maybe someone can help me understand this. I know that music can change the way people feel and I know the story about David playing for Saul. Do good or evil spirits literally travel through music? Is there a scriptoral reference for this? I kinda think that the benefit or harm of different types of music is not that a spirit is literally riding the sound waves but that the music causes our minds to focus and entertain certain thoughts good or bad.
You've asked a very good question. Let's see now...... let's say the song David played was "Total Praise". Let's say that their was another musician there that played that very same song for Saul but he did not have the annointing and was not filled with the power of God. Do you think that Saul would've been at ease after the other musician played? No. See, when you are in tune with God you are in tune with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Spirit takes your talent and uses it to edify and minister to Saul or the people. You fill me. Stay with me on this. It is important for a musician of God to live the life of a true Worshiper because God gives you Heavenly Notes that minister to people through music. Satan has corrupt music. You have to remember that Satan was a Praise & Worship Leader when he was in Heaven. It's true. That's why he uses music to confuse and distract and capture people's mind, body and soul. I said on another post that Satan is not in hell but he was casted into the atmosphere. Does he use soundwaves? Yes. You see it all around you. It is up to us to enter that other dimension of Spirituality to see with the eyes of the Spirit what is behind a musician and his music. Is it pure or is it not? There is also music that is just that. Music. There's music that makes your rejoice and celebrate. Nothing wrong with that. Now, if a musician is making music to let's say, glorify Satan and try to lure you into a trap, that's where the Holy Spirit would let you know for a fact. Yes it's true, Satan also has his praise & worship leaders.
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^
I love it! My sentiments exactly! How are you, by the way?
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My bad, that was for JoyCH! :)
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Do good or evil spirits literally travel through music?
I'm thinking about posting some instrumentals and asking people if they can identify which tracks allegedly have the evil spirits. Do you think that's a good idea?
C'mon man. Be serious about this. That's like saying, God if you're real you would to this..........
There is some music that is just that, music. What I'm talking about is the message behind the music. If a musician wants to play music then he can play music. Not everyone has an evil spirit behind them you know? Now, if a musician is making music to corrupt or that is corrupt with a specific message behind it, God will let you know if you're in tune. Follow me so far? In the case of Miles, cats were using his music to get high and some cats even spoke about seeing music notes flying in the air. How do I know? I worked with a guy that was all into that stuff in the 70's man. Acid, drugs and all of that and they used his stuff. You're open to disagree but that's my 2 cents. :D
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JFunky,
All do respect, but you're not really following the line of the thread. We've shifted to talking about secular music specifically. You've broadened the line of the thread to talk about your own issues you may be having. That's cool, but don't refer to me while talking about something that I'm not talking about.
We're trying to figure out that if a particular secular artist inherently puts evil spirits into his music because of who that artist is. We've brought up Miles Davis as a specific example.
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JFunky,
DESQ and I are discussing whether a particular secular artist inherently puts evil spirits into his instrumental music because of who that artist is. We are using Miles Davis as one specific example. I want you to know exactly what I'm talking about when you quote me.
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Praise the LORD, saints.
Interesting topic.
I do beleive that some spirits can be transferred through the medium of music. In the past, when pagan rituals required some pretty gastly things, they would play certain types of music to brainwash the people so they wouldn't think about what they were doing.
In the Army, we were taught certain cadences as we marched, and I loved some motivational, hard-charging cadences. But as a saint of GOD, I couldn't sing along with every cadence. I felt the carnal, unduly violent spirit behind the cadence. (Now of course as soliders we were fighters, but there is a difference between fighting to defend something that is right and fighting for the sake of fighting.)
So I would change the words of just hum along, since in Basic Training we would get our whole platoon in trouble if we didn't sing, or as they put it . . . "sound off" :D
I think some songs do put people in a romantic mood, some songs put people in a happy mood, some songs make people feel bittersweet, some songs make you travel down memory lane (and make you remember what you night need to forget) etc.
Art is a powerful medium. We see it in the Bible when after one of Cain's sons killed antoher man, he wrote a song to help ease his guilty conscience (Genesis Chapter 4)
So we do have to be careful and prayerful.
Be Blessed
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JFunky,
All do respect, but you're not really following the line of the thread. We've shifted to talking about secular music specifically. You've broadened the line of the thread to talk about your own issues you may be having.
My brother with all do respect that you deserve, I DO NOT have any issues within myself. I'm fine and rejoiceful in the Lord Jesus Christ. At the same time I know where I stand and I was actually answering some of the questions that Sugarbear and you were asking. I did apologize earlier in the threads for going a little off topic because I wanted to clear somethings up. Well, since you did say that this is your topic and that you and DESQ are having a discussion then I will abort your topic and keep my comments to myself. I apologize for any discomfort this might have caused you. Be blessed my brother and just pray and read God's word for any question you might have. I'm out. :D
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JFunky,
Seriously, relax. You quoted me previously and went off on something that's not related to the quote. I would like you and others to address what DESQ and I are talking about, but please make sure you're addressing my issue if you quote me. Otherwise, don't quote me. You're acting like I'm asking for something unreasonable.
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BBoy,
You brought up some good examples with your Army cadences. According to your post, the "evil spirits" were not in the instrumental parts, but in the lyrics only. Think about the following question:
Do you think a certain artist, such as Miles Davis, because their background inherently works evil spirits into their music? Let's assume there's no lyrics. Also, I'm not talking about the general moods of the songs. Would a musician like Miles Davis (drug abuser, womanizer) naturally work evil spirits into his instrumental music?
The reason I'm asking is because some Christians seem to think that it would not be OK for a gospel musician to play Miles Davis' music, or to play with Miles Davis, because of the alleged evil spirits.
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playhear wrote:
DESQ and I are discussing whether a particular secular artist inherently puts evil spirits into his instrumental music because of who that artist is. We are using Miles Davis as one specific example...
Playhear,
I did not mean for you to have a monologue but I had to step away for a few minutes :) Jfunky, please continue to contribute to the discussion. You gave good responses. [just stop quoting us and speak your mind] :P :P
I believe that spirits do travel through instrumental music. If you read I Sam 16: 14-23, the passage indicates that David played on his harp [it said nothing about him singing and playing to fight and overcome the evil spirit that came upon Saul.] In the 18th verse it states"...and the Lord is with him," meaning David. So candidly, I believe this passage illustrates that a spirit, in this case the spirit of God, travels through musical notes or simply stated instrumental music. First, we must look at this with a spiritual eye and from the spiritual realm. Everything we deal with has a spirit i.e., spirit of depression; spirit of lust; spirit of anger; spirit of sickness, and God counter-attacks these spirits with His Spirit.
I believe secular artists unwittingly allow spirits to infiltrate their music. Frankly, some do not even know any better [except maybe a person like Marilyn Manson who wholeheartedly appears to have embraced Satan] or as you stated playhear, it inherently occurs. Remember the devil uses people to get his purposes accomplished, just as God uses people [hopefully us] to get his Divine will accomplished on Earth. See Romans 8:1-14. [shout out to Jfunky for highlighting this scriptural reference earlier] . Sinners are lead by their flesh which is enmity against the Spirit of God.
As I stated earlier, music is the easiest form on Earth to enter the very core of a person. We can not shut it out unless you are truly deaf. Have you ever said, "Man, I have that stupid song [melody] in my head" just from shopping at the local market. Satan knows that using music will allow his spirits to quickly enter and take root within a person. This is his weapon of mass destruction. Some songs have a lustful spirit attached, some a raging/angry spirit attached. [BTW, note that the lyrics just manifest the particular spirit on the song.]
As an example, someone may have unwittingly allowed a lustful demonic spirit to enter them and it will only bolster the lustful spirit that they have been contending with over a period a time. This may answer the question the person has been asking themself repeatedly, "Why can't I seem to overcome a certain situation in my life." Unbeknownedst to them, they actually may be feeding the spirit through the music that they listen to. Thus, in some cases music is not just music. It's not just chords and a beat. This may appear far-fetched to some :roll: :roll: but I believe that it is not.
That's why I continually admonish my friends in the industry that they are lending their talents to music that inherently corrupts people. The Bible states we (Christians) are to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness..." Eph. 5:11. Furthermore, II Cor. 6:14-17 tell us not to be "unequally yoked with unbelievers" which is more than just marriage.
Yes, we can witness to them and talk to them, but are we to lend our musical talent to their work???? Each of us will have to come up with our own answer to this. Obviously, some don't seem to mind.
Again, I am not stating this to be overbearing or holier than thou, but simply to take an arrow out of the enemy's quiver.
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I must agree with DESQ. Music can carry spirits, even instrumental music.
That is why it is so important to flow with the minister when you are playing behind him / her or when you are playing talk music or playing at the altar call. A skillful musician may be able to play, but without that anointing and flow with the Holy Ghost, something is not there that needs to be there.
Even strictly instrumental music can help people become more mellow, or excited, or motivated. Think about the music they play in gyms when people are working out. Yes, the lyrics are important . . . but even without lyrics music can make a person feel hopeful, patriotic, sad, happy, etc. Many composers in the seventeenth century wrote instrumental compositions that made people feel certain ways, even though there were no lyrics to some of those peices of music. The music made them feel certain ways and invoked certain images, and they could make others feel the same way with their music. Keep in mind, these were the masters of music that we study today. Even now we say "That has a classical feel to it," or "That has a Baroque quality to it," or "That makes me feel so wistful, so serene." etc
Now when you compose, you are opening yourself up to whatever inspires you to write or put those progressions together. Many times secualr artists did use drugs to compose or play their instruments under the deception that the drugs helped them "expand their mind" :roll: So, whereas we can't say for certain because we weren't there, it could very well be that some artists were used by the enemy to compose songs that are demonically inspired, and make others think about drugs or perversion . . . yes, even without lyrics.
The Bible says that idols are the work of a man's hands, but evil spirits are behind them. So I wouldn't have an idol in my house, even if I myself could say, "Hey, I'm a Christian . . . that is just a souvenir of when I traveled overseas." That's why I don't read the horoscopes . . . . even though I know it is nonsense, the Bible lets me know that evil spirits are behind things like that.
Now as for the people who feel like they can't play certain types of music, I would tell them to follow their peace about it. If they feel wrong, it may very well be that they should leave it alone and not play it or listen to it.
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My bad, that was for JoyCH! :)
I'm doing fine J-kay. And how about you? :D
Joy
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Now this is what I'm talking about. We're finally addressing the topic of instrumental music. Folks danced around this topic so much I thought I was at Cinderella's Ball.
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I have to say that I do not believe spirits literally travel through music. The main reason is that there isn't a scripture that firmly supports this theory. There is the passage about David and Saul but it's like you have to read it and draw your own conclusion. As I said earlier, I think what makes music potentially harmful is that it can cause us to entertain the wrong thoughts. Some music can make us think about shooting somebody (NWA) and other music just makes us think about being better musicians. (Dave Weckle) Anyway as I read through some of the other posts this question came to mind:
If instrumental music carries a spirit, what spirit are we invoking into our church services when we play that hymn with a blues turnaround or that contemporary tune that has a hip-hop vibe? Or what's really taking place spiritually when the organist plays that phat jazz chord that can also be heard on a Miles Davis record? What spirit are secular musicians transferring when they borrow from gospel music?
I hope this ins't too far off the subject but I think all of this is helping us get to the bottom of the reason for the music profession being so controvesial among Christians.
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If instrumental music carries a spirit, what spirit are we invoking into our church services when we play that hymn with a blues turnaround or that contemporary tune that has a hip-hop vibe? Or what's really taking place spiritually when the organist plays that phat jazz chord that can also be heard on a Miles Davis record? What spirit are secular musicians transferring when they borrow from gospel music?
The problem is not the music itself. The problem is the link that the music may create to the evil vibe you mentioned. For example, if a certain chord progression causes a listener to think of Miles Davis, drugs, womanizing and a certain lifestyle, then that's bad. If another listener makes no such link, then it’s all good. If a musician in church intends to make the link I speak of, then that musician is certainly being disrespectful to God in His house. If a conscientious musician has no intention of drawing the link, then that musician is not at fault.
Take the chord progression to Ordinary People as an example. I’m definitely going to try those chord progressions in church next time I get the chance. That song is certainly secular. However, the chord progressions are happy and refreshing, and they can be useful tools for praising God. I would have no intention of drawing a link to any evil vibes using such chords. So, I think I’m good.
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Music by itself is not evil. I never expressed that thought and I hope (and believe) that was not implied in my statements. 8O In fact, the Bible states in Gen. 1:31, "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good..." Even mankind. However, we all know that mankind became corrupted b/c of Satan's trickery. Humankind is in a fallen state and every imagination of the thoughts of our heart is evil continually. Gen 6:5. [Read the seventh chapter of Romans to see the perpetual conflict between our human spirit and God's spirit]
It's just like an axe. An axe by itself is not inherently evil. I can use it in a positive manner, to cut down trees in order to make a house, or in a negative manner, to murder someone. Same for the internet, I can use it to disseminate meaningful information or to saturate the world with porno. It is the heart of the author or the spirit that is in control that determines the use.
Playhear and I [as well as others] may be differing on semantics only. If God's spirit travels through the music that we listen to and touches us why do we not believe or dismiss the notion that Satan does not use the same vehicle to propogate his anti-God message. Yes, the music touches an emotion within us, but what about the music has touched this emotion. The music itself??? :? No, b/c music in itself is not evil, but it is the "spirit" of the particular musical piece that speaks to or heightens that ungodly condition that is within us just as God's Holy Spirit touches the spirit man within us to serve him.
This is not about a certain chord or whether the song is considered "bluesy" or "country" or any particular type of progressions. A "C" chord is a "C"chord. A 2/4 beat is a 2/4 beat. However, what "spirit" is controlling me to create that "C" chord and 2/4 music. That's the difference I am trying to point out. I am not claiming that I literally see spirits flying around through the music :wink:, but I do believe that it happens.
Also, let me be clear about what I am referencing. I am not talking about praise and worship leaders whose lifestyles are not in sync with the word singing some Kur Carr piece or Israel medly for the afternoon service. [I might add, if that were the case, God would not get the glory in many of our services, but he still comes in and saves, heals and delivers despite the human vessel.] The discussion is centering strictly on "secular" artists composing music. I believe that there is a slight difference between a secular artist composing music just to compose music [who has given them the inspiration to compose that particular piece and what is the purpose] which sometimes you can tell strictly from the title of the song and a person in an ungodly condition composing an instrumental piece to magnify the Lord? We are not debating about who gave them the talent, only who is inspiring them to use their talent--Satan or God and whether a certain spirit follows the particular piece.
God Bless.
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I don't see an issue with musicians' getting paid to play in church. If you went to school and practiced for 1000's of hours why wouldn't you be paid? Do you go to work and work for free?
If you want to play for a church for free (and that's whats in your heart) then do it! Follow you heart.
I don't understand why people label Christians to be free hearted weak people who give all they got and leave with nothing. If you call a contractor to put an addition on the church will he put it up for free?
The bibles says, "The man who doesn't work, doesn't eat."
Joy
Great point and well said. I agree.
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Well after reading all the responses, I think I've found the answer to my initial question. Music is the only profession largely scrutinized in the Christian faith because it is the only art form that many Christians associate with spirituality. I personally think that all jobs and professions have some sort of association with spirituality or at least support an ungodly world system. So I find it a little bit unfair when a drummer is expected to exclusively play in a gospel setting but a carpenter is not expected to exclusively build churches, but that's just me. Anyway, reading these responses was very educational, especially some of the scriptures that were quoted. :D
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Music is the only profession largely scrutinized in the Christian faith because it is the only art form that many Christians associate with spirituality.
I think that statement is true generally, but not true for me personally. I scrutinize all professions equally. For example, I think God can be found in a heart surgery method just as well as in a method for playing a chord progression.
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Time and again I've observed topics like "Should church musicians be paid?" and "Is it wrong to play secular music?" pop up here at LGM and they always become the most interesting and heated discussions. God's people have a wide range of talents in the creative arts and beyond. Many of us even pursue careers that relate to our talents. However, why does it seem like music is the only form of talent that we question as a legitimate profession for a Christian?
It's like if we see a child who can draw or write stories we say " You should go to school for that. You can make some money when you grow up." but if a child can play an instrument it's like "Only play at church and your reward shall be in Heaven." I'm just wondering why it's so common for music to be looked at so differently from everything else among believer's of the Christian faith. :D
In my own personal opinion, I don't think it's wrong for a church musician to be paid to do what he/she does. I do, however, think it's wrong for that musician to play only for that reason, though. God gave us this gift to upbuild His kingdom. He also wants us to improve and build on this gift. If that means you get so good that you can make a career out of it someday, then do what you do. The key is to never forget where that success came from, where that gift came from. And never, ever cease to praise and thank God for that. As long as we are using what God gives us for good, and thanking Him for it in the process, I believe He will be pleased.
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this is pretty much like a thread a started about a year ago, so tell me what you think.
I play for a medium size church, the attendance being close to 250 each sunday. we have 6 musicians at our church; Our drummer, Pianist, Organist, bass and lead guitar, a percussionist, and myself. I can play just about every instrument i just listed except for the guitars, but im more proficient on the drums. my church pays all of the musicians but me, even though im there every sunday, playing whatever i have to play whenever one of them are late or absent. Dont get me wrong i enjoy what i do, and will continue to do it whether I get payed or not. my question to u is is it right that i get dont get payed and they do, even though im there to do whatever they need me to?
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All or none in my book. Just look at it this way; Who are you playing for and Who is watching your every move. For every mistake man does, God has a way of making it right. Trust me. I know from experience. Just serve God and play for His Kingdom and pray about the situation and you'll see what happens. God uplifts the humble even when things don't seem right. Talk to God first because if you keep thinking about it, it'll start bothering you and it'll affect the way you think and feel about your church which will then affect your playing and attitude. Someone is watching you and someone knows about the situation. Just do what you do and wait on God. He might be testing you, you know?
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this is pretty much like a thread a started about a year ago, so tell me what you think.
I play for a medium size church, the attendance being close to 250 each sunday. we have 6 musicians at our church; Our drummer, Pianist, Organist, bass and lead guitar, a percussionist, and myself. I can play just about every instrument i just listed except for the guitars, but im more proficient on the drums. my church pays all of the musicians but me, even though im there every sunday, playing whatever i have to play whenever one of them are late or absent. Dont get me wrong i enjoy what i do, and will continue to do it whether I get payed or not. my question to u is is it right that i get dont get payed and they do, even though im there to do whatever they need me to?
I think that you should be payed especially because of your versatility and willingness to help where ever neeeded. Unfortunatley it is not my decision.
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lol that sucks.
I think you should continue being faithful. It's funny how you're not getting paid though, but remember, your reward is eternal.
Trust me, it's gonna be PHAT in heaven. God will reveal your reward up there and you'll be like "O MY GOD" :lol: