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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: churchyreal on December 28, 2005, 11:46:43 AM
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Do you all feel that preachers today are getting too caught up in titles? The reason why I am bringing this up is because more african-american preachers now, especially in the baptist tradition, are going to the office of Bishop. What y'all think? (not trying to say that the baptist tradition is right or wrong)
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Actually, I thought that the title thing had settled down some. A few years ago, I remember when everyone was becoming Bishops.....then it was Apostles. I guess its heating up again. :)
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Oh yeah, before you give your response I want to know if this has been discussed in a previous post. If so direct me to that post please.
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Y'all are something else. I just said to a friend when I was at lunch that I'm going to be the first "Bishop" of Music instead of Minister of Music.....joking of course! :?
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Don't the laws of the church conttrol titles? You can't just give yourself a title can you? It doesn't seem right if you can. I guess it depends on the church as to how overseers are titled. I know in my church titles have control, meaning one is either voted or appointed.
I do know a pastor who all of a sudden his title became Bishop and his church name changed. I found that odd and wondered what process he went through to get that title or if he did go through a process.
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Y'all are something else. I just said to a friend when I was at lunch that I'm going to be the first "Bishop" of Music instead of Minister of Music.....joking of course! :?
Sorry Herman, you will not be the first. The Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship really has a "Bishop of Music".
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It seems like most of these titles are self-appointed. Recently I ran into an old friend of mine who has been known as Reverend for years. So when I addressed him as reverend, he was visibly angry and said "That's Bishop" in a real irritated tone. People want whatever will prove status. I don't care what title I have, just call me saved.
Question: Can someone really call themselves an Apostle? I thought there were only 12?
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Do you all feel that preachers today are getting too caught up in titles? The reason why I am bringing this up is because more african-american preachers now, especially in the baptist tradition, are going to the office of Bishop. What y'all think? (not trying to say that the baptist tradition is right or wrong)
This whole issue has confused me as well. In the Baptist church, we now have Bishops, Apostles, Overseers, Prophets (and Prophetesses) and so on.
Is there anyone out there with any real knowledge about what's going on here? :?
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Some of these ministries are getting into the 5-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11-13). They are basically if they are truly Apostles, prophets, and so on. They calling them as God sees them in the body. The whole purpose of the 5 fold (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers) is to perfect the saints into spiritual maturity. Too many times people would take titles because they sound good and yet don't have the anointing behind it. Being both in music and one of the house prophetesses at my church, my job is basically checking out every visiting speaker by the anointing and also by their fruits. Some people can be greatly anointed but have rotten character. There are some who abuse the sheep and when people take titles not aware of the spiritual responisblities/anointing/as well as the attacks leaders go through. For some of the bad apples in the bunch causes a lot of the saints to distrust true 5 fold ministry. True 5 fold ministry serves to mature the saints to their next level, not going on a Hollywood self-serving status and the job like the rich fool is to build bigger barns. Basically ministry in all capacities whether in title/office/anointing is for one purpose, to serve.
So to answer your question, the anointings are still there for all as God gives. Only God can call and make an minister regardless of function of office in the 5-fold or various gifts. Man can't just slap on a title unless of course God revealed that to them or usually through other ministers over the fruit of the call on their lives.
Ok here's my 2 dollars and change on this subject. I hope I shed some light on the issue.
God bless,
Shan
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Well I'll be the first Apostle of Music in the Missionary Baptist Church! :lol: PSYCHO BABBLE!
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I believe that many people are taking on a title and not truly called. A true Apostle will do the work (carry the gifts and anointing) of an Apostle, A true Prophet will do the work of a Prophet...ect. If God has called and chosen you to be a Evangelist, He also equipts you with what you need to be an Evangelist. Yes, too many people are just tagging a title to their name and don't have that anointing. Clouds with no rain.
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Question: Can someone really call themselves an Apostle? I thought there were only 12?
Like another poster said, the rules for determining a title are different accross the denominations. Some denominations allow "Apostles", some don't. Growing up "Apostolic", I believe that someone can be called an Apostle, but I don't agree with some of this willy-nilly title-giving going on.
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Question: Does the five-fold ministry really have five gifts? I was taught it was five gifts but if you read carefully you will notice that every separate gift has "and some...." but the Pastor-Teacher does not. Is Pastor and Teacher two separate gifts or one gift? I do understand that some are called to just being a teacher. What y'all think?
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HAve to agree mizzshan...
The church is SUPPOSED to make it's rules and such by the bible, and I know I'm going to start something here, but ok here we go, this is why a woman canNOT be a bishop. And I'm still studying about women in Apostleship, but Jesus did not appoint a woman as an apostle. To be a bishop you HAVE TO fall into the criteria, (1Tim 3) same thing with a deacon. If you don't agree with me on that I think ya'll will about this... Most of these "Self proclaimed spirits" just don't want to be accountable to anyone, I don't like my choir director, so I say God told me to start a choir, NO God told you to stay there and submit until he gets that thing in you out that doesn't like submitting... YOu know what that "THING" is huh? (Won't go there)
The proof is in the pudding, your calling WILL speak for it's self, I never had to tell folks I was a minister, and I didn't carry a bible and wear a collar all day, (Still don't have a collar, ha ha)
If you are a prophet, you better give the word and it better come to pass, If you are an evangelist, you should be able to revive the church... ok last thing I HAD to put in, and it should not matter what color the people are, that you're ministering to... Black folks like excitment, but minister to other races of people that you can't scream and holler to and kick over a chair, your gift should still work, because God knows what his people need.. It will speak for you...
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Question: Can someone really call themselves an Apostle? I thought there were only 12?
Like another poster said, the rules for determining a title are different accross the denominations. Some denominations allow "Apostles", some don't. Growing up "Apostolic", I believe that someone can be called an Apostle, but I don't agree with some of this willy-nilly title-giving going on.
An Apostle by definition is one the have seen the works of the Lord. They are they that have laid the foundation. Paul, in my opinion and probably the opinion of many bible scholars, was the LAST Apostle. Once the foundation was laid there was no more need for Apostles.
The title of Apostle cannot be given of Man. The office of Bishop can. By Bible definition a Bishop is similar in many ways to that of Deacon. A Bishop has a few more responsibilities of course. The church has really fouled up the hierachy.
Titles are not as important as works.
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Question: Does the five-fold ministry really have five gifts? I was taught it was five gifts but if you read carefully you will notice that every separate gift has "and some...." but the Pastor-Teacher does not. Is Pastor and Teacher two separate gifts or one gift? I do understand that some are called to just being a teacher. What y'all think?
Pastor and teacher are truly two seperate gifts. There are many teachers in the body of Christ. Many can take scripture and break it down so that you can understand it. Those are teachers. But then there are Pastors that can show you how to take what you have learned and apply it to every day life. Pastors that can deal with souls and the different personalities and issues that come along with those souls. Pastors pray for you and are there for you when you need them...I am talking about REAL Pastors...not some of these watered down showboats. Pastors that live what they preach at home and not just in the pulpit.
Pastors are held to a totally different light that teachers. Teachers are liken to the donkey from Numbers 22...God can use any of us to speak or teach His word. Pastors are liken to Paul...the real ones are very few and far between and their impact is immeasurable.
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An Apostle by definition is one the have seen the works of the Lord. They are they that have laid the foundation. Paul, in my opinion and probably the opinion of many bible scholars, was the LAST Apostle. Once the foundation was laid there was no more need for Apostles.
The title of Apostle cannot be given of Man. The office of Bishop can. By Bible definition a Bishop is similar in many ways to that of Deacon. A Bishop has a few more responsibilities of course. The church has really fouled up the hierachy.
Titles are not as important as works.
I've heard one definition as "one who builds/organizes churches". I agree with that definition.
...or...
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
I'm of the belief that if God is really calling you, he can place you into any one of these positions, but for someone to just take the title because they like it or people are calling them that is wrong. The bible doesn't say that there's a limit to how many of each 5 there are. The scriptures that refer to the "12 apostles" are talking about the 12 that Jesus assigned, which doesn't include Paul.
...but I'm not tryin to convince you.
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If I wanna call you Apostle B3Wannabe, then that's my business and you can't do nothing about it mister!!!! And when we get to church Sunday, you better put on an Apostle's robe and sit in the pulpit and call yourself Apsotle B3 when you get up before the people! If you don't grandma and auntie are gonna send you to hell....because even if God didn't call you to be that, the family call you from your mother's womb!
***You know that's how it is with some people. My cousin (who is now deceased) called me when I was two. I have YET to hear God say "Go Preach", but cousin Brenda has called me Revvy-Rev since I was young enough to remember. Even when I would go to see her in the hospital, she would ask me to sing something or pray and would always end with "thanks Revvy-Rev". Typing that just made me miss her like crazy - by the way!
But the point is, some people are called by AT&T or the family. Therefore, they could care less about what title they bear because the title gives them position, prominence, and authority with the people....and has nothing to do with an Divine appointment from God! For those who fall guilty of this, I am so afraid....just being honest.
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I've heard one definition as "one who builds/organizes churches". I agree with that definition.
If that is truly the case then why is title Apostle higher than that of Bishop. From the definition of the office of Bishop that I am used to even in that of the Apostolic church is that a Bishop is the overseer of many churches. If an Apostle builds them then the Bishop oversees. How can there be Bishops in organizations where there are no Apostles?
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LOOK! I am already trying to convince myself that today is not Wednesday because we were off Monday. Must I be even more confused about how we can have Bishops with no apostles? You're onto something....but it just made my head hurt! OUCH! :roll:
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I've heard one definition as "one who builds/organizes churches". I agree with that definition.
If that is truly the case then why is title Apostle higher than that of Bishop. From the definition of the office of Bishop that I am used to even in that of the Apostolic church is that a Bishop is the overseer of many churches. If an Apostle builds them then the Bishop oversees. How can there be Bishops in organizations where there are no Apostles?
I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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Question: Does the five-fold ministry really have five gifts? I was taught it was five gifts but if you read carefully you will notice that every separate gift has "and some...." but the Pastor-Teacher does not. Is Pastor and Teacher two separate gifts or one gift? I do understand that some are called to just being a teacher. What y'all think?
I pray these scriptures clear things up for ya.
Eph 4:
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
1 Tim 2:17 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
2 Tim. 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
1 Cor. 12:
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
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keep bringin the word my sista.....
I love hearing from folk that come from Ministries that know and operate in the Gifts.
I thank God every day that he chose to call me to him in an Acts 2:38, Holy Ghost filled, we don't just preach we experience it church. We had Baptism's at least 6 times a year and prayed people through to the Baptism of the Spirit at least every other service. Runaway's were common place and someone was alway gettin slain in the spirit.
I want to be part of a church like that again so much. If any of yall know of a church like that New Jersey let it be known.
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I've heard one definition as "one who builds/organizes churches". I agree with that definition.
If that is truly the case then why is title Apostle higher than that of Bishop. From the definition of the office of Bishop that I am used to even in that of the Apostolic church is that a Bishop is the overseer of many churches. If an Apostle builds them then the Bishop oversees. How can there be Bishops in organizations where there are no Apostles?
I don't understand what you're trying to say.
I am trying to say that the definition that you agree with, in my opinion, cannot be justified if there is an organization that has Bishops and no Apostles. In my previous post the Office of Bishop as it is today is given when one is the Overseer of many churches many of which are birthed from your own ministry. If that is the case how can one be a Bishop before being an Apostle. It should be the other way around. An Apostle before a Bishop.
Nothing really to debate over....I am sure that each organization gives offices according to very different rule sets. Again, in my opinion it should go:
1. Minister
2. Elder
3. Pastor
4. Apostle
5. Bishop
But I have seen it go:
1. Minister
2. Pastor
3. Elder
4. Bishop
5. Apostle
The Bible says that in all thy getting get an understanding...but I don't know if I will understand this stuff........at least according to the definitions that I am given.
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I definately don't believe that Paul was the last Apostle! I believe that God has true Apostles today. None of the 5 ministries has came to an end and God has someone operating in all 5 areas today. Thats the only way that the church will be perfected. Even though it may be hard for some to believe, there are scores of villages, and towns in other parts of the world that has never even heard of Jesus, so there is still alot more to build on. The foundation that was laid did not end the work, we are still building onto that foundation. The foundation is Jesus Christ and that foundation (Jesus) has to be laid in variuos parts of the world.
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Jmanley...
Praise the Lord bro...I'm of the school that Lady is from...You have to do some research bro. Bishop was adopted by from the Catholic church and a title for overseers. Look up the word bishop in your concordance and you will see in most scriptures in the New Testament...Bishop is simular to Deacon. Bible Deacon and Bishops had the same function. Proper rules of interpretation are the key to quality bible study. If you're really interested you should enroll in some type of Bible college where they teach a good course on Hermeneutics.
One more thing about interpretations...Bishops and Deacons in those had somewhat of a pastoral role because churches as we know it were'nt established. They were more like home bible studies or what some would call cell ministry.
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Jmanley...
Praise the Lord bro...I'm of the school that Lady is from...You have to do some research bro. Bishop was adopted by from the Catholic church and a title for overseers. Look up the word bishop in your concordance and you will see in most scriptures in the New Testament...Bishop is simular to Deacon. Bible Deacon and Bishops had the same function. Proper rules of interpretation are the key to quality bible study. If you're really interested you should enroll in some type of Bible college where they teach a good course on Hermeneutics.
One more thing about interpretations...Bishops and Deacons in those had somewhat of a pastoral role because churches as we know it were'nt established. They were more like home bible studies or what some would call cell ministry.
I fully understand the New Testament definition of Bishop. I refered to it in an earlier post that they are similar. Deacon (Diakonos) and Bishop ( Episkop or Episkopos) are similar as far as qualification as explained in Titus but what they do in the body is actually different. Deacons are appointed. The Apostles were told to pick out men among them that would be able to tend to the everyday church functions (i.e. deal with the people, make sure that they had food...etc.) while the Apostles ministered. The Bishop in the NT is like unto the Pastor of a church. He is in charge of dealing with the church spiritually and overseeing. Apostles like Paul went around setting up churches and then left deacons and Bishops to tend to the church after he was gone.
So, my understanding of this subject is very on point...but thanks for caring.
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I thinkk one can see why there are different titles among the denominations just by the differences in opinion and interpretation in this thread. There are some churchs that use the title apostle while other churchs don't use it as a title. My church doesn't use the title because the Bible gives evidence that the number of apostles (12) was fixed. Matt. 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev. 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles 11 of the Lamb.
This is probably why the title isn't used in some denominations. IMO some churches look at it this way. The Bible has been written, there hasn't been anything added to it. Which makes it the definite word of God. Jesus and the Apostles did their job of spreading the gospel and creating the church. Bishops (elders) and deacons were left behind to do thier respective duties. Thus the titles of bishop and deacon are used today, while the apostle title has been reserved for the 12 that followed Jesus Christ.
Those churchs who are not of the episcopalian structure do sometimes use the apostle title and use it synonomously to the Bishop or Elder title. I would think that the rational behind using the title is from the Greek meaning of the word apostle "to send" or to preach or give the Word of God.
This thread has been very enlightening for me. I have learned a lot from everything that was said.
Remember, dont' get caught up in who's right and who's wrong because we don't know. It's all about interpretations and beliefs on the church government structure. As long as we all know there is only One God who had only One son who gave his life for our sins, and that there are many forms of church government which we should all respect we all we be just fine.
God Bless!
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The scriptures given by ladybass are exactly right. There are others, but I dont have them right now. The bottom line is that the Word of God gives the guidelines for everything that should take place in the church especially the authoritative aspect. If you hold any title you should know the backgroud of what it takes to be placed in that position. If God doesn't move you, then you don't move.
And to try to answer mr layback's question: Yes, there can be apostles in fact there should be apostles. For all of the churches that pop up every year, I hope there are apostles. Afterall, the job of an apostle is to get the church started, make a foundation for the church to start with just like the 12 apostles of Jesus.
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Speaking from a secular and legal point of view, any one who starts (founders) a church can call himself or herself a bishop, as long as it is not part of an existing denomination. For instance, if I start the New Greater Missionary Baptist Church of God and Christ (I didn't say "in")...I can be Bishop Terri Johnson over the church and start my own denomination...legally! In that, I can bring up churches in that MBCOGAC and be recognized as such. This is just an example of how the legal system works.