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Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: 4hisglory on February 22, 2006, 12:40:01 PM

Title: I to IV Progression
Post by: 4hisglory on February 22, 2006, 12:40:01 PM

This week, I just realized why the I to IV progression work.

Regular
I.....C.....C / C E G
IV....F.....F / F A C


I.....C.....C / C E G
pc....C7....C / C E G Bb
IV....F.....F / F A C

I just realized why that passing chord works.  Because its the 5th of F (the C7 is)  duuhhhh... :)

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: playhear on February 22, 2006, 01:32:30 PM

Yeah, theory's cool.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: CESharp on February 22, 2006, 01:45:14 PM

are you saying that you can use the fifth of any key to get a passing chord?
example

          D / D F# A
         D7.........D F# A C
          G / G B D

Is that right?

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: 4hisglory on February 22, 2006, 02:43:12 PM

Yep, that is correct.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on February 23, 2006, 10:06:07 AM

Only use that when it fits, i.e. when you're next chord is a 4 of the chord.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on February 23, 2006, 10:12:53 AM

Another way to do it is like this:

C / C-E-G
Bb / C-E-G
F / C-F-A

You see?  You just play the minor 7th note with your LH and keep the rest of the chord in your RH.  For a more dramatic affect, you can do it this way:

C / C-E-G
Bb / C-E-G
A / C-F-A
G / Bb-D-G *don't really need the RH chord, just throw in for kicks (LOL)
F / A-C-F

This is more likely how you would hear it being played in gospel music today.  Instead of playing the root of the last chord with your LH, play the 3rd then walk down to the root.  I

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: 4hisglory on February 23, 2006, 12:45:10 PM

The Ledgend has Spoken. :)

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: CESharp on February 23, 2006, 01:44:19 PM

is it because: F is the 4th of C, and C is the 5th of F?

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: CESharp on February 23, 2006, 01:46:05 PM

Okay T-Block, you lost me
I need to study that to find out how you went there  I understand the C to the Bb but not the A.......

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: 4hisglory on February 23, 2006, 04:30:38 PM

C / C-E-G...........C
Bb / C-E-G........C7......Bb is just in the bass
F / C-F-A.........F

or this:

C / C-E-G...........C
E / Bb C-E-G........C7
F / C-F-A.........F

Its really the same thing, just a different bass note.  Its all about getting to that 4 chord

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on February 25, 2006, 02:16:04 PM

CESharp wrote:

Quote

is it because: F is the 4th of C,

Yes.

Quote

and C is the 5th of F?

This is correct, but is not relevent in the progression.

Quote

Okay T-Block, you lost me
I need to study that to find out how you went there  I understand the C to the Bb but not the A.......

The A is a member of the 4 chord, F-A-C.  I was trying to explain that instead of just playing the root of the chord with your LH, you can play the 3rd of the 4 chord then walk down to the root:

C / C-E-G (1)
Bb / C-E-G (b7) *really a I7 with Bb in the bass
*A / C-F-A (6)  *really a 4 chord, F-A-C, 3rd in the bass
*G / Bb-D-G (5) *filler LH note walking down to the root of the 4 chord, RH chord added in for kicks
F / A-C-F (4)

Do you understand a little better CESharp?

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on February 25, 2006, 02:21:47 PM

Quote

Quote

and C is the 5th of F?

This is correct, but is not relevent in the progression.

I take that back.  It is relevant cuz if you were in the key of F, then yes C is the 5th and if you play a C7 chord, C-E-G-Bb, it would naturally resolve to a 1 chord in F, which is an F major chord, F-A-C. 

This is why I tell people that when u are analyzing the resolution of the dominant 7th chord, say that it resolves to 4 of the chord, and not just 4.  The resolution chord may not be 4 in the key you are in, it may be a 1 or 6 or whatever.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: rjthakid on March 07, 2006, 09:30:47 AM

Which explains why G7 resolves so nicely to the C.  Not because G is the fifth of C, but because C is the fourth of G.

Music moves in fourths.  the 7-3-6-2-5-1 is basically just movements in fourths.  That's why it's so important to learn the Circle of Fifths.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: ai3winner on March 07, 2006, 11:25:22 AM

Okay,

Im totally lost!!!!!!!!!!!! Please explain what u guys are trying to say as basic as possible  :)  What would these chords be used for? When would you play these chords?
Also, this went in the following order: I, I7, 6, 5, 4 , when I played that, it didnt sound good at all. Now, it must be me since Im not grasping the concept, please break it down.

What do you mean by passing chord?
Help me !!!!!  :)

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: bongcai on March 07, 2006, 01:21:32 PM

Hi, it's my first time post here  :D
For progression I to IV, try these:

1 3 5 7/1 -> 5#724/1 -> 3613/4 > 5#234/7b

Or

7235/1 -> 47b2/5 > 47b2.1 > 361/4

I'm not in front of my keyboard, but I think that will work =]

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: bongcai on March 07, 2006, 01:26:05 PM

I think this is nice to:

7235/1 > 45#2/5>  451/4 and then immediately change to 361/4   ;D

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on March 08, 2006, 11:08:08 AM

ai3winner wrote:

Quote

Okay,

Im totally lost!!!!!!!!!!!! Please explain what u guys are trying to say as basic as possible    What would these chords be used for? When would you play these chords?
Also, this went in the following order: I, I7, 6, 5, 4 , when I played that, it didnt sound good at all. Now, it must be me since Im not grasping the concept, please break it down.

What do you mean by passing chord?
Help me !!!!! 

I HOPE YOU READY FOR THIS!!!

First of all, you lost cuz you wrote it down wrong.  It is not a I, I7, 6, 5, 4, it is I, b7, 6, 5, 4.  Those numbers correspond to scale degrees and not acutal chords.  I'll explain each one individually:

I = C / C-E-G (1)

Here, you have a I / 1.  The reason why it is a 1 is because you are in the key of C and C is the 1st scale degree. That only explains the note in your LH, but has nothing to do with the chord.  To identify what kind of chord you have, you gather up every note that is present and stack it into 3rds.  The chord we have here is C-E-G, which is a C major chord.  Now, in the key of C, a C major chord is a 1 chord.  So, all together, we have a 1.  If we break it down by each hand, we have a 1 in the LH and a 1 chord in the RH.  You wit me so far?


b7 = Bb / C-E-G (b7) *really a I7 with Bb in the bass

Here, you have a b7.  The reason why it is a b7 is because you are in the key of C and B is the 7th scale degree.  But, we don't have a B, we have a Bb.  So, thus we have a b7, which means a lowered 7.  Again, that only explains the note in your LH, but has nothing to do with the chord.  To identify the chord let's take all the notes and stack them in 3rds.  The chord we have is C-E-G-Bb, which is a C dominat seventh chord.  Now, it is true that you have a I7, but it is played with the Bb in your LH and the C-E-G in your RH.  Are you still wit me? Chord names come from looking at all notes being played, but progression numbers are strictly related to the LH notes.  Now, theory teaches us that a dominant 7th chord resolves to 4 of the chord, so we have to look at the next chord to see what happens:

6 = *A / C-F-A (6)  *really a 4 chord, F-A-C, 3rd in the bass

Here, you have a 6.  The reason why it is a 6 is because you are in the key of C and A is the 6th scale degree.  That explains your LH note, but doesn't tell you anything about the chord.  Let's stack all the notes in 3rds and see what chord we have.  The chord we have is F-A-C, which is an F major chord.  In the key of C, an F major chord is a 4 chord.  Stop right there!  Didn't we say above that the dominant 7th chord resolves to 4 of the chord?  Well, lookey what we got here, a 4 chord.  The only difference here is we are not playing the root F in the bass, we are playing an A, which is the 3rd of the F major chord and the 6th scale degree in the key of C.  The 6 wins out, so althoghther we have a 6.  If we break it down by each hand we have a 6 in the LH and a 4 chord in the RH.  You wit me now?  Let's move on:

5 = *G / Bb-D-G (5) *filler LH note walking down to the root of the 4 chord, RH chord added in for kicks

First of all, this chord is really not needed, it is what we call a filler / passing chord.  These type chords are just thrown in here and there to fill the spaces between the important chords, or the chords that have to be played.  Anyways, here you have a 5.  The reason why it is a 5 is because you are in the key of C and g is the 5th scale degree.  That explains your LH note, but not the chord itself.  Let's stack the notes in 3rds and see what chord we have.  The chord we hve is G-Bb-D, which is a G minor chord. 

Now pay close attention to what I'm about to say. In the key of C, the G chord is a major chord, G-B-D, but here we have a minor chord.  The reason why we are playing a G minor chord is because when we played that C dominant 7th chord earlier, and it resolved to 4 of that chord, which was the F major chord with the 3rd in the bass, there was a temporary modulation to the key of F.  So, now we are not only thinking in the key of C, but also in the key of F.  And in the key of F, the G minor chord is a 2 chord.  So now I bet u probably wondering why I didn't call the chord a 2 instead of a 5?  Well, the answer is because this is a temporary modulation, meaning that it shifts back to C.  So, instead of using theory for the key of C and F, we use theory for the key that is present the longest. 

Now, back to the chord, altogether we have a 5.  If we break it down by hands, we have a 5 in the LH and a minor 5 chord (key of C) or a minor 2 chord (key of F) in the RH.  I know you probably not wit me now, but let's move on:

4 = F / A-C-F (4)

Last, we have a 4, which is where we waned to end up in the first place.  The reason why we have a 4 is because in the key of C, F is the 4th scale degree.  That explains your LH note, but not the chord.  Let's stack the chord in 3rds to name it.  The chord we have is F-A-C, which is an F major chord.  Now, in the key of C, an F major chord is a 4 chord.  So, altoghether we have a 4.  If we break it down by each hand, we have a 4 in the LH and a 4 chord in the RH.

Let me guess, i bet you wasn't expecting all that info were you?  I know it's gonna take a while to process all this information, but this is the process that my mind goes through when I am analyzing chords and stuff.  Yall lucky yall don't have to do this for a grade, cuz I had to do this for a grade in high school and college.  If I didn't get it right, I just got an F on my test, so I had to study hard and fast.  If you still having trouble, I can try to break it down some more, but I don't know if i can.

ISN'T MUSIC THEORY FUN?

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: bishopcole on March 08, 2006, 12:45:56 PM

T-block,I applaud you for that. Simplicity sell!!! Please all new and beginning musicians remember this!! Bishop Cole

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: CESharp on March 08, 2006, 01:42:15 PM

T-Block................yes, I get it now.  I just had to take time and imagine what you were posting.  N.w, I just have to keep it in my brain
Thanks.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: ai3winner on March 09, 2006, 01:48:20 AM

Quote from: T-Block on March 08, 2006, 11:08:08 AM

ai3winner wrote:

Quote

Okay,

Im totally lost!!!!!!!!!!!! Please explain what u guys are trying to say as basic as possible    What would these chords be used for? When would you play these chords?
Also, this went in the following order: I, I7, 6, 5, 4 , when I played that, it didnt sound good at all. Now, it must be me since Im not grasping the concept, please break it down.

What do you mean by passing chord?
Help me !!!!! 

I HOPE YOU READY FOR THIS!!!

First of all, you lost cuz you wrote it down wrong.  It is not a I, I7, 6, 5, 4, it is I, b7, 6, 5, 4.  Those numbers correspond to scale degrees and not acutal chords.  I'll explain each one individually:

I = C / C-E-G (1)

Here, you have a I / 1.  The reason why it is a 1 is because you are in the key of C and C is the 1st scale degree. That only explains the note in your LH, but has nothing to do with the chord.  To identify what kind of chord you have, you gather up every note that is present and stack it into 3rds.  The chord we have here is C-E-G, which is a C major chord.  Now, in the key of C, a C major chord is a 1 chord.  So, all together, we have a 1.  If we break it down by each hand, we have a 1 in the LH and a 1 chord in the RH.  You wit me so far?


b7 = Bb / C-E-G (b7) *really a I7 with Bb in the bass

Here, you have a b7.  The reason why it is a b7 is because you are in the key of C and B is the 7th scale degree.  But, we don't have a B, we have a Bb.  So, thus we have a b7, which means a lowered 7.  Again, that only explains the note in your LH, but has nothing to do with the chord.  To identify the chord let's take all the notes and stack them in 3rds.  The chord we have is C-E-G-Bb, which is a C dominat seventh chord.  Now, it is true that you have a I7, but it is played with the Bb in your LH and the C-E-G in your RH.  Are you still wit me? Chord names come from looking at all notes being played, but progression numbers are strictly related to the LH notes.  Now, theory teaches us that a dominant 7th chord resolves to 4 of the chord, so we have to look at the next chord to see what happens:

6 = *A / C-F-A (6)  *really a 4 chord, F-A-C, 3rd in the bass

Here, you have a 6.  The reason why it is a 6 is because you are in the key of C and A is the 6th scale degree.  That explains your LH note, but doesn't tell you anything about the chord.  Let's stack all the notes in 3rds and see what chord we have.  The chord we have is F-A-C, which is an F major chord.  In the key of C, an F major chord is a 4 chord.  Stop right there!  Didn't we say above that the dominant 7th chord resolves to 4 of the chord?  Well, lookey what we got here, a 4 chord.  The only difference here is we are not playing the root F in the bass, we are playing an A, which is the 3rd of the F major chord and the 6th scale degree in the key of C.  The 6 wins out, so althoghther we have a 6.  If we break it down by each hand we have a 6 in the LH and a 4 chord in the RH.  You wit me now?  Let's move on:

5 = *G / Bb-D-G (5) *filler LH note walking down to the root of the 4 chord, RH chord added in for kicks

First of all, this chord is really not needed, it is what we call a filler / passing chord.  These type chords are just thrown in here and there to fill the spaces between the important chords, or the chords that have to be played.  Anyways, here you have a 5.  The reason why it is a 5 is because you are in the key of C and g is the 5th scale degree.  That explains your LH note, but not the chord itself.  Let's stack the notes in 3rds and see what chord we have.  The chord we hve is G-Bb-D, which is a G minor chord. 

Now pay close attention to what I'm about to say. In the key of C, the G chord is a major chord, G-B-D, but here we have a minor chord.  The reason why we are playing a G minor chord is because when we played that C dominant 7th chord earlier, and it resolved to 4 of that chord, which was the F major chord with the 3rd in the bass, there was a temporary modulation to the key of F.  So, now we are not only thinking in the key of C, but also in the key of F.  And in the key of F, the G minor chord is a 2 chord.  So now I bet u probably wondering why I didn't call the chord a 2 instead of a 5?  Well, the answer is because this is a temporary modulation, meaning that it shifts back to C.  So, instead of using theory for the key of C and F, we use theory for the key that is present the longest. 

Now, back to the chord, altogether we have a 5.  If we break it down by hands, we have a 5 in the LH and a minor 5 chord (key of C) or a minor 2 chord (key of F) in the RH.  I know you probably not wit me now, but let's move on:

4 = F / A-C-F (4)

Last, we have a 4, which is where we waned to end up in the first place.  The reason why we have a 4 is because in the key of C, F is the 4th scale degree.  That explains your LH note, but not the chord.  Let's stack the chord in 3rds to name it.  The chord we have is F-A-C, which is an F major chord.  Now, in the key of C, an F major chord is a 4 chord.  So, altoghether we have a 4.  If we break it down by each hand, we have a 4 in the LH and a 4 chord in the RH.

Let me guess, i bet you wasn't expecting all that info were you?  I know it's gonna take a while to process all this information, but this is the process that my mind goes through when I am analyzing chords and stuff.  Yall lucky yall don't have to do this for a grade, cuz I had to do this for a grade in high school and college.  If I didn't get it right, I just got an F on my test, so I had to study hard and fast.  If you still having trouble, I can try to break it down some more, but I don't know if i can.

ISN'T MUSIC THEORY FUN?

T-Block, T-Block, T-Block,

I loooooooove you! First, thank you for alll your help! Second, b/c you just opened my eyes! I completely understand theory and chord names, so it actually confuses me a little bit when you guys are wrting out notes instead of C7add9 (example). Even though you were simplyfying I was still confused. I know it sounds wierd. But one thing I didnt realize until now, is that you can have a bass note that doesnt always have to be directly related to the chord in your right hand.

You are truly blessed! Never, hide your light under a bushel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you

PS Now Im going to read your post again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: ai3winner on March 09, 2006, 01:51:46 AM

Quote from: ai3winner on March 07, 2006, 11:25:22 AM

Okay,

Im totally lost!!!!!!!!!!!! Please explain what u guys are trying to say as basic as possible  :)  What would these chords be used for? When would you play these chords?
Also, this went in the following order: I, I7, 6, 5, 4 , when I played that, it didnt sound good at all. Now, it must be me since Im not grasping the concept, please break it down.

What do you mean by passing chord?
Help me !!!!!  :)

Please answer those questions. You guys are great!

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on March 09, 2006, 10:11:54 AM

Quote

What would these chords be used for? When would you play these chords?

You can play this where it fits, i.e. anytime you are going from 1 to 4 in a song.

What do you mean by passing chord?

Passing / filler chords are just chords that are thrown in here and there to fill in the spaces between the important chords, or the chords that have to be played.  Usually, the important chords are the chords you play with the words of a song.  The passing / filler chords are the chords in between the words when people are adlibing with stuff like "ohhh, yeaaa, etc." They don't have to always be chords, they can also be runs, which are parts of scales.  Here is an example using the song "Thank You Lord":

C / G-C-E Thank  (important chord)
E / G-B-D You  (important chord)
A / E-G-C Lord  (important chord)
A / E-A-C#  *passing / filler chord
B / F-Ab-B-D  *passing / filler chord
C# / G-Bb-C#-E  *passing / filler chord
D / A-D-F Thank  (important chord)
F# / F#-A-C-E You  (important chord)
G / F-G-C-D Lord  (important chord)
G / F-G-B-D  *passing / filler chord
Run w/both hands:  F, E, D, C  *passing / filler run
B / A-D-F Thank  (important chord)
E / G#-C-D-G You  (important chord)
A / G-B-D Lord  (important chord)
A / E-A-C#  *passing / filler chord
B / F-Ab-B-D  *passing / filler chord
C# / G-Bb-C#-E  *passing / filler chord
D / A-D-F I
E / G-C-E just
F / F-A-D want to
D / F#-A-C-E thank
G / F-G-B-D You
/ C Lord

Turnaround (chords to get back to beginning):

F / E-A-C  *passing / filler chord
E / D-G-C  *passing / filler chord
D / F-A-C  *passing / filler chord
C / E-G-C  *passing / filler chord
E, F, F# /  *passing / filler run
G / F-A-C  ohhh  *passing / filler chord
(repeat)

Now, take a close look at the song.  You see where the important chords are, they are the chords with the words.  Now, do you see how much space is between the words?  Insteading of just sitting there doing nothing, you can play passing / filler chords to occupy those spaces.  Do you understand that?  If not, I'll keep explaining until u get it.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: bishopcole on March 09, 2006, 01:04:10 PM

Again T-block this is perfect. If I was to add anything to this , I would say that ear training is a big part of this, cause with the ear training he or she would also be able to understand filler or passing chords or notes. The Bishop

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: Eggs on March 09, 2006, 04:54:09 PM

Hey TBlock,

I just wanted to say that I applaud you for taking time with your posts.  Not only do you explain things well, but you
make sure you have spelled out the notes correctly, and used correct spelling, punctuation, and all dat dere!.   :D

Seriously,

One mispelled chord can really hurt somebody who thinks they're catching on to the concepts.  I know, I've had it
happen to me.

But I can tell that you take your time, for the benefit of us beginners, and I want you to know that I appreciate it!
So let's all follow in TBlocks shoes, and read what we write, before we post up!

Amen?

God bless,
Eggs

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: sjonathan02 on March 09, 2006, 06:50:20 PM

Quote from: Eggs on March 09, 2006, 04:54:09 PM

Hey TBlock,

I just wanted to say that I applaud you for taking time with your posts.  Not only do you explain things well, but you
make sure you have spelled out the notes correctly, and used correct spelling, punctuation, and all dat dere!.   :D

Seriously,

One mispelled chord can really hurt somebody who thinks they're catching on to the concepts.  I know, I've had it
happen to me.

But I can tell that you take your time, for the benefit of us beginners, and I want you to know that I appreciate it!
So let's all follow in TBlocks shoes, and read what we write, before we post up!

Amen?

God bless,
Eggs

Yo, that's good and true. One misspelled chord and *sounding like Howard Cosell*  "IT'S OVA, OVA!!".
And yes, when one is trying to read the explanations, it does help to have proper grammar and punctuation.


Thanks, Teach for all that you do.

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: rjthakid on March 10, 2006, 02:30:25 PM

T-Block

I've been studying my theory, so I already knew the things in your post......until you said the C7 resolving to the F put you, temporarily in the key of F!!!!  You more experienced theory heads probably knew that LONG ago, but that's a serious new tidbit for me!  Hmmmm.  So would one way of switching to a different key (permanently) be to just play the V7 to the I of the key you're changing to? (like when someone's singing a song where they take raise the key a semitones every few verses)

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on March 10, 2006, 04:26:11 PM

Quote

So would one way of switching to a different key (permanently) be to just play the V7 to the I of the key you're changing to? (like when someone's singing a song where they take raise the key a semitones every few verses)

If that fits in a song, then yeah you could do it.  But, a better way, or should I say, a more simpler way to modulate like that is to play the 4 chord with the 5th in the bass of the key you are going to.  Examples:

C to Db

C / G-C-E *old key
Ab / Gb-Bb-Db *modulation chord (5th in Db / 4 chord in Db)
Db / F-Ab-Db *new key*

F# to Bb

F# / C#-F#-A# *old key
F / Bb-Eb-G *modulation chord (5th in Bb / 4 chord in Bb)
Bb / Bb-D-F *new key

You get the idea right? 

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: T-Block on March 10, 2006, 04:28:30 PM

Quote

Again T-block this is perfect. If I was to add anything to this , I would say that ear training is a big part of this, cause with the ear training he or she would also be able to understand filler or passing chords or notes. The Bishop

Quote

Hey TBlock,

I just wanted to say that I applaud you for taking time with your posts.  Not only do you explain things well, but you
make sure you have spelled out the notes correctly, and used correct spelling, punctuation, and all dat dere!.   

Seriously,

One mispelled chord can really hurt somebody who thinks they're catching on to the concepts.  I know, I've had it
happen to me.

But I can tell that you take your time, for the benefit of us beginners, and I want you to know that I appreciate it!
So let's all follow in TBlocks shoes, and read what we write, before we post up!

Amen?

God bless,
Eggs

Quote

Yo, that's good and true. One misspelled chord and *sounding like Howard Cosell*  "IT'S OVA, OVA!!".
And yes, when one is trying to read the explanations, it does help to have proper grammar and punctuation.


Thanks, Teach for all that you do.

Everybody, you are all welcome!!!  Thanks for the support!!!

Title: Re: I to IV Progression
Post by: rjthakid on March 13, 2006, 09:50:02 AM

Quote from: T-Block on March 10, 2006, 04:26:11 PM

If that fits in a song, then yeah you could do it.  But, a better way, or should I say, a more simpler way to modulate like that is to play the 4 chord with the 5th in the bass of the key you are going to.  Examples:

C to Db

C / G-C-E *old key
Ab / Gb-Bb-Db *modulation chord (5th in Db / 4 chord in Db)
Db / F-Ab-Db *new key*

F# to Bb

F# / C#-F#-A# *old key
F / Bb-Eb-G *modulation chord (5th in Bb / 4 chord in Bb)
Bb / Bb-D-F *new key

You get the idea right? 

Gotcha.   Thanks Doc