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Main => Ministry, M.O.M, Praise Teams and Choirs => Topic started by: erictoler on March 07, 2006, 12:41:29 AM
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Homosexuality is a very uncomfortable, touchy, and a seemingly taboo reality within the church. Unfortunately, many pastors tend to shy away from preaching and teaching on this very important issue.
Many people in our churches suffer from this condition and it needs to be addressed more, but it needs to be dealt with through LOVE!!! Please keep in mind that I said "ACTIVE". There is a tremendous difference. Try reading 1 Corinthians 6 with focus on verses 9-20.
Please let me know your comments, thoughts, and beliefs on this topic. It will be much appreciated.
Thank you and God Bless in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
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I think the scriptures are clear on homosexuality, continuing in any sin is not a nice place to be, I pity them but their blood be upon their own shoulders if they are warned and do not repent, it is out of love that we should warn them of the distruction ahead.
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I totally understand what you are saying.
This is what I think:
God doesn't like the sin but loves the sinner!
If we sit homosexuals down, then we all need to sit. Lets pray for that spirit to be cast out (as well as Liars, stealers, cheater, etc.)
In LOVE!!!!!
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We have homosexuals within our church and choir and our pastor will and does preaches on it, and I care for them very much they are very respectable in the way they carry themselves (not dress out) clean cut and well dressed, they know the word and what is exceptable in God's eyes, and that between them and the Lord, but I believe fully that he who is without sin cast the first stone, therfore I will not judge and throw stones either.
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I believe that if you are doing a ministry w/in the church and your lifestyle is a sin, rather it be homosexual, a drug addict, etc, then you should not be allowed to be in that ministy, the reason is because, as being in a ministry or leadership, then it will send the wrong message to people who are new to Christ... This is not judging them at all, judging is condeming, and this is not an act of condeming... When someone is singing or playing music in a church, it is a ministry, such as preaching, now if that was the case, then it would be the equivalent as a homosexual preaching on the pulpit. Now what kind of example will that be. All of us is born into sinful nature, that is why it's important, that we teach the goodness of Christ so he can give us a new heart, and new desires, and not the desires of this world. That's why the bible says transforming of the mind, because your mindset will not be on desires of homesexuality but desires to please Christ.
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Homosexuality is a very uncomfortable, touchy, and a seemingly taboo reality within the church. Unfortunately, many pastors tend to shy away from preaching and teaching on this very important issue.
Many people in our churches suffer from this condition and it needs to be addressed more, but it needs to be dealt with through LOVE!!! Please keep in mind that I said "ACTIVE". There is a tremendous difference. Try reading 1 Corinthians 6 with focus on verses 9-20.
Please let me know your comments, thoughts, and beliefs on this topic. It will be much appreciated.
Thank you and God Bless in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
Sexual sin of any nature is an uncomfortable topic it seems it a lot our churches, as with all sin it must be dealt with. "Many people in our church suffer from this condition..." this condition is called sin, yes it should be dealt with........John 3:16 For God so loved.............He died for all sin, yet the word also tells us that He came not to condem..........
Before we use 1 Cor. 6:9-20, let us first use John 3:16-17 as our basis for ministry. God's Love
my 02.
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Bboy...oh how this topic just repeats itself. :-X
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okay, it is one thing if you have been a homosexual and you are trying to change your ways but if you keep doing it and you know better than I think you should sit down for a minute until you get yourself together. That would be no different I guess if a woman kept getting pregnant and she was in ministry. Maybe she needs to sit down and get hersself together before she steps back into ministry. Think about what kind of message you are sending to people. We want to try to change not continue in our sinful ways. We need the Lord to give us strength to help us through each day!!!
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okay, it is one thing if you have been a homosexual and you are trying to change your ways but if you keep doing it and you know better than I think you should sit down for a minute until you get yourself together. That would be no different I guess if a woman kept getting pregnant and she was in ministry. Maybe she needs to sit down and get hersself together before she steps back into ministry. Think about what kind of message you are sending to people. We want to try to change not continue in our sinful ways. We need the Lord to give us strength to help us through each day!!!
I have to agree and disagree with you on a few points...
1) I agree that if you know what you are doing is unpleasing in the sight of God, than you should be sat down...until God is finished working on you and you have deliverance from that demonic stronghold.
2) In the Bible, childbirth in wedlock was close to the heart of God. I personally know a lady Pastor who during her tenure has had many children, and God has used them in mighty ways. Just because a woman is in ministry does not mean that she is not allowed to bear children. It would be different if the woman was not married, then she would be out of line with the word of God!
Amen!
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okay, what I was trying to say about the women getting pregnant was the one who was not married and just sleeping around. I guess I didn't make that clear. Meaning that she didn't take her ministry seriously!!!
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I believe that if you are doing a ministry w/in the church and your lifestyle is a sin, rather it be homosexual, a drug addict, etc, then you should not be allowed to be in that ministy, the reason is because, as being in a ministry or leadership, then it will send the wrong message to people who are new to Christ... This is not judging them at all, judging is condeming, and this is not an act of condeming... When someone is singing or playing music in a church, it is a ministry, such as preaching, now if that was the case, then it would be the equivalent as a homosexual preaching on the pulpit. Now what kind of example will that be. All of us is born into sinful nature, that is why it's important, that we teach the goodness of Christ so he can give us a new heart, and new desires, and not the desires of this world. That's why the bible says transforming of the mind, because your mindset will not be on desires of homesexuality but desires to please Christ.
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Aaaaaaman
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I have to agree and disagree with you on a few points...
1) I agree that if you know what you are doing is unpleasing in the sight of God, than you should be sat down...until God is finished working on you and you have deliverance from that demonic stronghold.
2) In the Bible, childbirth in wedlock was close to the heart of God. I personally know a lady Pastor who during her tenure has had many children, and God has used them in mighty ways. Just because a woman is in ministry does not mean that she is not allowed to bear children. It would be different if the woman was not married, then she would be out of line with the word of God!
Amen!
Come on man you can tell she was talking about unwed Mothers!!!!! Dang! And I agree with her 100% Also what kind of Pastor would have known Gays in ministry at their Church....Id have to question the walk of the pastor.
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this is what i BELIEVE! i believe that homosexuals coming to church are fine. it just like ill people going to the doctor to get a cure for thier illness. they could be looking to change their life and would be a good time to minister to them. now on the other hand homosexuals that doing what they are doing and know what they are doing but are still preaching, on the praise team, or any thing of that nature should be sat down period point blank. but not only that but counseled by the proper person. as well as heterosexul people having premarital relations.
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Everybody sins, and to tell someone that they cannot participate in prasing the lord because they sin is stupid. Believe it or not I'm sure your pastors have all sined, and will continue to sin until their dying day. The bible does say homosexuality is a sin, and it also says that judging is also a sin, and in the eyes of God all sins are the same.
And so God shall smeareth the feces of the judgmental against their own faces…thus leaving them to smell the disgust of their own Earthly prejudice. ---- Levitucus 3:12
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Paparooski, Paparooskie, Paparooskie,
First, I would like to say thanks for your interest and opinon to the poll. There is much that I would like to share with you. The first is the to opportunity to correct you on the verse that you shared supposedly coming from the WORD of GOD. You misquoted (I hope) Leviticus 3 verse 12. How can you begim to give advice about the character of the Almighty God; One and Only True and Living God, when you cannot quote the scriptures(His Word) correctly? If you cannot quote or attribute the correct information about ANY subject or matter, whether it be paraphrasing, direct quoting, summarizing etc.... then I would heavily consider NOT rendering ANY advise about many subjects, especially those that concern the WORD of GOD!!!!!
The correct verse is as follows: "And if his offering is a goat, then he shall offer it before the Lord." The subject of this chapter is about Peace Offerings.
I hope that you just really badly misquoted the verse, and that YOU are not being fecicious (no pun intended).
Sincerely,
Eric Toler
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appoligies....should have double checked.....but i hope my point is still well taken
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Homosexuality should be able to be active in the Church. It is not right to be a homosexual and the Lord doesn't like it. It doesn't take away that the Lord still Loves that individual regardless. That person should have the desire to change. Under a circustances that a person is not looking to change I don't feel they should be in leadership position. Being active in some ministries will help them to change. Singing in the choir is okay but leading the choir or the ministry can be a problem. How can you lead a ministry when you have a problem that you are no where trying to fix.
Natasha
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The way this topic is handled by the church always reminds me of that tricky question posed by a 4-yr old to a parent: "where do babies come from?" the easiest responses (i.e.-mommy's tummy) provides an answer but not really a complete answer. later in the individual's journey, if elements do not arrive that cause arrested development, the answer will hopefully unfold.
the responses to homosexuality, particularly when handled by the black church (not all but we do stand accused), reeks of arrested development spiritually, morally, theologically, biblically, emotionally, socially and above all--intellectually. my prayer is that we will one day come to appreciate not only the content of the word of God but the context of the word of God. that requires a lifetime of doing justice, loving mercy and walking humbly with God. and as we learn the beauty of God's gifts of grace, salvation and free will extended to the entire tapestry of God's diverse creation the doors of the church will freely and lovingly swing open to "whosoever will."
we tend to "believe what we believe" but be challenged (don't believe every spirit but try the spirit). i challenge you to read the book: "Where the Edge Gathers" by Bishop Yvette Flunder. it is a critical look at such a question as the one posed in this survey....shalom
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My sister was an active homosexual who loved God and shot herself in the head November 3, 2003. Zenovia was a beautiful spirit who was not allowed to come to church and have the same experience as other people caught up in different sins. If we really want to help people, really, we will pray for them period. Obviously, if someone is actively homosexual, they are not ready to give up that lifestyle yet. We need to realize that this situation is most difficult for the homosexual person. The last thing we want is anyone to die in sin. Let us remember that life and death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it shall eat its fruit-Proverbs 18:21. Rest in peace my precious and only sister. The real musician in the family. Please forgive us for we knew not what we were doing. I love you forever.
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My sister was an active homosexual who loved God and shot herself in the head November 3, 2003. Zenovia was a beautiful spirit who was not allowed to come to church and have the same experience as other people caught up in different sins. If we really want to help people, really, we will pray for them period. Obviously, if someone is actively homosexual, they are not ready to give up that lifestyle yet. We need to realize that this situation is most difficult for the homosexual person. The last thing we want is anyone to die in sin. Let us remember that life and death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it shall eat its fruit-Proverbs 18:21. Rest in peace my precious and only sister. The real musician in the family. Please forgive us for we knew not what we were doing. I love you forever.
That was an awesome and brave word you shared sista'. God bless you
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when first talking about homosexuals in church as a young youte i would say bun dem but now im old enough to realize and through scripture i must hate there sin and not them thats why i would reach out to them and help them for if i dont i will be held accountable we must love them for were all sinners to and there is no such sing as a greater or lesser sin (ex: stealing is just as sleeping wit someone of the same gender of you
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My sister was an active homosexual who loved God and shot herself in the head November 3, 2003. Zenovia was a beautiful spirit who was not allowed to come to church and have the same experience as other people caught up in different sins. If we really want to help people, really, we will pray for them period. Obviously, if someone is actively homosexual, they are not ready to give up that lifestyle yet. We need to realize that this situation is most difficult for the homosexual person. The last thing we want is anyone to die in sin. Let us remember that life and death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it shall eat its fruit-Proverbs 18:21. Rest in peace my precious and only sister. The real musician in the family. Please forgive us for we knew not what we were doing. I love you forever.
Thank-you for your post, my sister. I am praying for you. I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to lose your sister in the way that you did. I am a man who is in the same situation. In my case though, I haven't allowed my sexual preference to become public knowledge. As far as most people who know me are concerned, I am straight. One thing that so many people don't understand is that, the vast majority of us, if we could, would be attracted ONLY to the OPPOSITE sex. It is a "tremendous" burden living with these feelings inside of us. So many times during my life, I have prayed and asked God to take these feelings away! I don't want to be like this! Even though I try not to, I still find myself yielding to the desires inside of me that cause me to want to be with another man. Maybe people would understand better if they would look at it this way. Just think about your feelings toward the opposite sex. The same desire that you feel for them is the same desire that we feel. Most of us would change it if we could, but it's so much easier said than done. I don't know why I feel this way. I do however make every effort NOT to yield to these desires. Even though sometimes I fall......I get up and try again! We need to refrain from the hate and alienation that we practice toward our brothers and sisters and realize that EVERYBODY needs and deserves love!
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My sister was an active homosexual who loved God and shot herself in the head November 3, 2003. Zenovia was a beautiful spirit who was not allowed to come to church and have the same experience as other people caught up in different sins. If we really want to help people, really, we will pray for them period. Obviously, if someone is actively homosexual, they are not ready to give up that lifestyle yet. We need to realize that this situation is most difficult for the homosexual person. The last thing we want is anyone to die in sin. Let us remember that life and death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it shall eat its fruit-Proverbs 18:21. Rest in peace my precious and only sister. The real musician in the family. Please forgive us for we knew not what we were doing. I love you forever.
im sorry to hear that my sister god bless you and hold on to the faith
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I agree with so many of you. It is the sin that we should hate and not the sinner. What message do we send out if we sit down our homosexual members... But hot pants Susie been with the entire decon board??? It is uncomfortable, but needs to be addressed. Let he that is without sin cast the first stone... I think that some people get so caught up in being hollier than thou, that the forget that they themselves are sinners saved by grace... With the same drinking problem, still going home to beat their wifes, cheating on their husbands... etc. I am a serial fornicator... now what??? I play the drums for my church... should they sit me down? There is no sin greater than another. Sin is sin. So I guess if we enforced that, we would come to an empty church with no choir, no PASTOR cause they sin too, and nothing but the roaches in the basement.This is a great topic, I'm gonna go ask my mommy what she thinks... I'll be right back.
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I have to say I have a concern of a Pastor who allows anyone living a blatanly sinful life to hold a leadership position in their ministry. My pastor on several occasions have asked folks to step down out of their office because of the situations in their life, i.e. Living with boyfriends. Which was the situation at our church, but I am sure if someone lead a known and active homosexual life he would not allow them to hold a leadership office in our church. We still love this person and pray with them and for them,but they do not hold offices and Leadership positions. Just as a testimony we have a young lady who last spring when she joined our church was Gay and dressed like a dude. God delivered her from that lifestyle,but it took time and growth on her part. She was still an active member of our church and we treated her no different and loved her no less.
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I'm not really looking to perpetuate this subject, because it makes me nauseous to see it continue with little progress.
But to assert that anyone's lifestyle is NOT in sin is contrary to the Bible's teaching and just as Jesus chose even those who would betray him for his ministry, we should not be so self- righteous as to assume that homosexuals are incapable of worship acceptable to God.
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Like the old saying... God Created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.
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or Madam and Eve...
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MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST ;we know this is a real serious subject and it must be dealth with within the church .first of all it's a abomination before God and for us to accept this would be just as bad as partaking in the sins of others according to II john 1:11 . we know that we shouldn't be jugdement al toward others but, jugdement must begin in the house of the LORD God call for sacred santified life in service and ministry unto HIM People we must realize WE CAN'T serve In sin What difference it's making ?What IMPACT on the sinner does it serve , remember GOD Said ;ALL SOULS ARE MINE .....the fathers...the sons... But the soul of the sinner it shall die . Also remember the sons of Eli I Samuel Chapters 3 & 4 servicing God in ministry Died for sinful deeds Romans1 declares reprobation of people mind ,Joshua 7 the sins of Achan remove the accurse this from among your stuff!!!!! Serve God with a clean heart pure mind . And brother with these fleshly carnal desire God can keep you wholly if you surrender all unto HIM. JESUS SAID ;these kind come out but by praying and fasting[/s] pray and fast these are the last days and obvious there is an spirit of error happening in the church . :'( :o
Thank-you for your post, my sister. I am praying for you. I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to lose your sister in the way that you did. I am a man who is in the same situation. In my case though, I haven't allowed my sexual preference to become public knowledge. As far as most people who know me are concerned, I am straight. One thing that so many people don't understand is that, the vast majority of us, if we could, would be attracted ONLY to the OPPOSITE sex. It is a "tremendous" burden living with these feelings inside of us. So many times during my life, I have prayed and asked God to take these feelings away! I don't want to be like this! Even though I try not to, I still find myself yielding to the desires inside of me that cause me to want to be with another man. Maybe people would understand better if they would look at it this way. Just think about your feelings toward the opposite sex. The same desire that you feel for them is the same desire that we feel. Most of us would change it if we could, but it's so much easier said than done. I don't know why I feel this way. I do however make every effort NOT to yield to these desires. Even though sometimes I fall......I get up and try again! We need to refrain from the hate and alienation that we practice toward our brothers and sisters and realize that EVERYBODY needs and deserves love!
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or Madam and Eve...
Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
True..............God created Man
Gen.2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
He made woman......................
Gen.5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
God created man....................made woman......................and called them both Adam (not Adam & Eve)
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Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
True..............God created Man
Gen.2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
He made woman......................
Gen.5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
God created man....................made woman......................and called them both Adam (not Adam & Eve)
Amen to THAT!
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i think homosexuals should not be active in the church until they give up the way they sre living. the only thing we can do about it is pray that God changes their ways. :-\
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Why is there such a focus on the homosexuals though???? What makes their sin stand out so much more than a whoremonger, theif or a liar???? I see the point but then dont see it...
Their sin or lifestyle isnt different from that of a womanizer, drug addict... So what makes us put so much focus on them???? Just a question?
My minister of music is an active gambler.... my friends church, whoa, the pastors wife is the head of the womens ministry, and is an active alcoholic.... But when the gay musician came in, HAULT!!!!! he had to step down.... Where is the consistency in that??? out of God's will is out of His will, no matter how you slice it.
I feel that ALL the lifestyles should be changed, I know the scriptural standpoint, but if we are only focusing on the gays in church and none of US other sinners living a contrary lifestyle, what does that make us???? Its like saying, you can't be a gay misician, but you can be the minister who beats his wife. you cant be the gay teacher, but you can be the fornicating trustee.... I see an obvious inbalance...
if you are an active drunkkard, and you are the head of the deacons, you need to step down. If you are a woman beater and also a sunday school teacher, you need to step down. If you smoke weed and are the youth choir director, you need to step down... AND YES, if you are a GAY musician, YOU NEED TO STEP DOWN.... if we stop putting focus on one area so much and look at the broad picture, makes less confusion, more understanding... JMHO....
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i think homosexuals should not be active in the church until they give up the way they sre living. the only thing we can do about it is pray that God changes their ways. :-\
With this mindset, everyone who sins should be sat down....
....then who would serve¿
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Homosexuality is a very uncomfortable, touchy, and a seemingly taboo reality within the church. Unfortunately, many pastors tend to shy away from preaching and teaching on this very important issue.
Many people in our churches suffer from this condition and it needs to be addressed more, but it needs to be dealt with through LOVE!!! Please keep in mind that I said "ACTIVE". There is a tremendous difference. Try reading 1 Corinthians 6 with focus on verses 9-20.
Please let me know your comments, thoughts, and beliefs on this topic. It will be much appreciated.
Thank you and God Bless in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
Ok and how do you determine who is active and who is not?
Also remember it might be seen as hypocritical to hold those that commit one type of sin to a different standard than others. If you are going to restrict "active homosexuals", then you may need to restrict active liars, gossipers, fornicators, cheaters, etc.
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Ok and how do you determine who is active and who is not?
Also remember it might be seen as hypocritical to hold those that commit one type of sin to a different standard than others. If you are going to restrict "active homosexuals", then you may need to restrict active liars, gossipers, fornicators, cheaters, etc.
Check above post
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With this mindset, everyone who sins should be sat down....
....then who would serve¿
Very Good point. I think we might agree for once..lol
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I live in Atlanta, which is home to one of the largest gay black male communities, even in the church. There are churches where the gay men literally seem to congregate. They seem to all travel in the same circuit, which also happens to be the same circuit that sings with, plays for, or leads the more popular local gospel groups in Atlanta. These are the ones who are at every concert, every midnight musical, every preachin, and in the church everytime the doors swing open. As ridiculous as that all sounds, guess what? The same backbiters, whoremungers, liars, cheaters, smokers, drinkers, etc. are also at many of these same functions (myself included). And I would be willing to bet that there are some heterosexual preachers, deacons, choir/praise team members, church officers, and musicians, who sin more than some of those homosexuals do. So who gets to sit them down? The Pastor? So does that mean that he's without sin? Cause I know mine surely isn't, and most other ones I know to. So then who sits the pastor down? Exactly. Let God do what God does best. Leave the correcting to Him and let us continue to pray for our brothers and sisters, pastors, etc. Who knows, when God delivers them, they might be a testimony to somebody else who is going through the same thing. But because some sinner whose lying wasn't as bad as their homosexuality decided that they needed to be sat down, they got offended, left the church, and is now no longer interested in worshipping with hypocrites. (please understand the sarcasm, but get the point)
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Why is there such a focus on the homosexuals though???? What makes their sin stand out so much more than a whoremonger, theif or a liar???? I see the point but then dont see it...
Their sin or lifestyle isnt different from that of a womanizer, drug addict... So what makes us put so much focus on them???? Just a question?
My minister of music is an active gambler.... my friends church, whoa, the pastors wife is the head of the womens ministry, and is an active alcoholic.... But when the gay musician came in, HAULT!!!!! he had to step down.... Where is the consistency in that??? out of God's will is out of His will, no matter how you slice it.
I feel that ALL the lifestyles should be changed, I know the scriptural standpoint, but if we are only focusing on the gays in church and none of US other sinners living a contrary lifestyle, what does that make us???? Its like saying, you can't be a gay misician, but you can be the minister who beats his wife. you cant be the gay teacher, but you can be the fornicating trustee.... I see an obvious inbalance...
if you are an active drunkkard, and you are the head of the deacons, you need to step down. If you are a woman beater and also a sunday school teacher, you need to step down. If you smoke weed and are the youth choir director, you need to step down... AND YES, if you are a GAY musician, YOU NEED TO STEP DOWN.... if we stop putting focus on one area so much and look at the broad picture, makes less confusion, more understanding... JMHO....
With this mindset, everyone who sins should be sat down....
....then who would serve¿
While a sin is a sin but didnt God Call homosexuality an abombination? he never said that about lying
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While a sin is a sin but didnt God Call homosexuality an abombination? he never said that about lying
Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Psalms 101:7
He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight
Ummm those are just two instances. You should also know the bible mentions lying more than homosexuality.
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Ok and how do you determine who is active and who is not?
Also remember it might be seen as hypocritical to hold those that commit one type of sin to a different standard than others. If you are going to restrict "active homosexuals", then you may need to restrict active liars, gossipers, fornicators, cheaters, etc.
VERY WELL SAID.
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Who is without sin? Let him cast the first stone.
The above portion of scripture tells it all. There are many active sins in the church. This is not a secret and it is not judging or condemning anyone. You know what your sin is, and you need to address it. I heard someone say that it is easier said than done. This is true - no doubt, but each day that you have decided to make Jesus your choice, you begin to sin less and less. The transformation takes a while. It doesn't necessarily happen overnight. Although, I know for a fact that if your mind is made up, and you turn it over to Jesus, you will turn from your wicked ways (whatever that might be).
In answer to the question at hand:
The Bible is clear when it tells us, that if you desire a certain office in the Church such as Bishop, Pastor, Teacher, Deacon, etc., you will need to fulfill certain requirements. The same holds true for Minister's of Music, Praise and Worship Leaders, Devotional Leaders, Sunday School Teachers, etc.
We should be beyond reproach. We're not perfect, but we strive to be. More often than not, we are the only Bible that some people read.
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I have read a lot of the posts and I agree and disagree. First of all, there is no such thing as a big sin or a little sin. A sin is a sin so just as quick as you think of something evil or wrong, you are just as guilty as a homosexual person. Second of all, It would be quite difficult for you to just tell someone to give up a lifestyle and you don't know what they feel. A lot of us don't ask to be this way. I didn't and I don't want to now. It's hard and having to listen to people criticize and not understand sends me through. People always using bible scriptures and stuff.....I hear preachers say all the time, life is pre-destined....God know exactly what a person would be before that person knows. What people are failing to realize is that time is changing and there are a lot of things that will be different.....Homosexuality is a major problem, if you will, in society. If we have to reach out to the people living in sin, how are you going to get them to listen to you if you don't know what they are feeling.... I think a lot of the homosexuals who are in church now in leadership positions are placed there for God to use them to one day get through to others....But I can keep going and going but I think "church folk" should remember.....The bible was written in Hebrew and translated.....Hebrew is an ancient language and just like English, it evolved and words took on different meanings. Just keep in mind ALL sins are the same and we live in sin EVERYDAY....No one is perfect. As people, we take in and use what references we want to use to fit our own beliefs....but it should be looked at from all angles.....and honestly from what I have experienced, I know far more homosexuals who are sincere with the word of God than a lot of the suppose to be christians within the church. Let God Judge and we just show LOVE.
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My sister was an active homosexual who loved God and shot herself in the head November 3, 2003. Zenovia was a beautiful spirit who was not allowed to come to church and have the same experience as other people caught up in different sins. If we really want to help people, really, we will pray for them period. Obviously, if someone is actively homosexual, they are not ready to give up that lifestyle yet. We need to realize that this situation is most difficult for the homosexual person. The last thing we want is anyone to die in sin. Let us remember that life and death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it shall eat its fruit-Proverbs 18:21. Rest in peace my precious and only sister. The real musician in the family. Please forgive us for we knew not what we were doing. I love you forever.
OUCH! YIKES! One post made me laugh at 3am and this one brings me to tears! WOW!
My opinion (better late than never) is simply this.....
Being a victim of that struggle for a hot minute....I can tell you from the inside that there are several inconsistencies in people's thought patterns. I know they will never be cleared up, so I choose to leave them alone most of the time...
1) THEY NEED TO BE SAT DOWN IF THEY ARE ACTIVE.........in order to KNOW that they are active, we have to ask them and find out. To sit someone down based on what we assume or how they look is wrong. My personal claim to fame was the look of bewilderment on people's faces when they came to me and asked if I was and my reply was "I like women TOO"....the word too always left mouths open....tongues tied....and more! I loved it. Now, those same words 80% of the time sound vile and nasty to my own ears, thus indicating the need for a COMPLETE CHANGE.
2) THE DESIRE DOESN'T LEAVE OVERNIGHT, PEOPLE.....and from time to time you see things that appeal to the eye and you fall weak......but do you know the WORST type of conviction you can feel? When someone who knows what you do reminds you that "you are the Minister of Music...a man called to serve to build God's kingdom". The feeling of shame that comes over you when you lift your hands to stand the choir up will sometimes make you want to just run out of church and hide!!!!!!!! That being said, if a person's heart truly belongs to God then his or her conviction will sit them down.....YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
I am glad that this topic keeps coming up on LGM because in the music ministry it really does exist, but there are those who are not as brave or open as I am who really want to be free from this thing and don't know how YET. These posts are gonna help somebody....you just watch.
I praise God in advance for the musicians who will find steps toward their TRUE deliverance right here on LGM. Isn't that what ministry is for?
Sorry I read this so late. Must've been meant to be.
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With this mindset, everyone who sins should be sat down....
....then who would serve¿
Say it again Vt
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OUCH! YIKES! One post made me laugh at 3am and this one brings me to tears! WOW!
My opinion (better late than never) is simply this.....
Being a victim of that struggle for a hot minute....I can tell you from the inside that there are several inconsistencies in people's thought patterns. I know they will never be cleared up, so I choose to leave them alone most of the time...
1) THEY NEED TO BE SAT DOWN IF THEY ARE ACTIVE.........in order to KNOW that they are active, we have to ask them and find out. To sit someone down based on what we assume or how they look is wrong. My personal claim to fame was the look of bewilderment on people's faces when they came to me and asked if I was and my reply was "I like women TOO"....the word too always left mouths open....tongues tied....and more! I loved it. Now, those same words 80% of the time sound vile and nasty to my own ears, thus indicating the need for a COMPLETE CHANGE.
2) THE DESIRE DOESN'T LEAVE OVERNIGHT, PEOPLE.....and from time to time you see things that appeal to the eye and you fall weak......but do you know the WORST type of conviction you can feel? When someone who knows what you do reminds you that "you are the Minister of Music...a man called to serve to build God's kingdom". The feeling of shame that comes over you when you lift your hands to stand the choir up will sometimes make you want to just run out of church and hide!!!!!!!! That being said, if a person's heart truly belongs to God then his or her conviction will sit them down.....YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
I am glad that this topic keeps coming up on LGM because in the music ministry it really does exist, but there are those who are not as brave or open as I am who really want to be free from this thing and don't know how YET. These posts are gonna help somebody....you just watch.
I praise God in advance for the musicians who will find steps toward their TRUE deliverance right here on LGM. Isn't that what ministry is for?
Sorry I read this so late. Must've been meant to be.
Foe those seeking help[ & healing:
http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/
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I live in Atlanta, which is home to one of the largest gay black male communities, even in the church. There are churches where the gay men literally seem to congregate. They seem to all travel in the same circuit, which also happens to be the same circuit that sings with, plays for, or leads the more popular local gospel groups in Atlanta. These are the ones who are at every concert, every midnight musical, every preachin, and in the church everytime the doors swing open. As ridiculous as that all sounds, guess what? The same backbiters, whoremungers, liars, cheaters, smokers, drinkers, etc. are also at many of these same functions (myself included). And I would be willing to bet that there are some heterosexual preachers, deacons, choir/praise team members, church officers, and musicians, who sin more than some of those homosexuals do. So who gets to sit them down? The Pastor? So does that mean that he's without sin? Cause I know mine surely isn't, and most other ones I know to. So then who sits the pastor down? Exactly. Let God do what God does best. Leave the correcting to Him and let us continue to pray for our brothers and sisters, pastors, etc. Who knows, when God delivers them, they might be a testimony to somebody else who is going through the same thing. But because some sinner whose lying wasn't as bad as their homosexuality decided that they needed to be sat down, they got offended, left the church, and is now no longer interested in worshipping with hypocrites. (please understand the sarcasm, but get the point)
AMEN
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My sister was an active homosexual who loved God and shot herself in the head November 3, 2003. Zenovia was a beautiful spirit who was not allowed to come to church and have the same experience as other people caught up in different sins. If we really want to help people, really, we will pray for them period. Obviously, if someone is actively homosexual, they are not ready to give up that lifestyle yet. We need to realize that this situation is most difficult for the homosexual person. The last thing we want is anyone to die in sin. Let us remember that life and death is in the power of the tongue and those who love it shall eat its fruit-Proverbs 18:21. Rest in peace my precious and only sister. The real musician in the family. Please forgive us for we knew not what we were doing. I love you forever.
What an awsome testimony!!! My prayers are with you my sister, continue to be blessed.
If some of us knew just half of the things leadership in the church did and some still do, e would not be able to handle it. People are so focused on Homosexuals in the church that they forget that they to are a sinner. The Bible says, "All have sinned and come short of His Glory".
Remember, we all are striving for perfection which means nobody is perfect!!! What I have learned to do is Pray not only for myself but for all weather they are looking for change or not. Some people just don't know what they want. The only thing we can do is pray that there eyes be open and someday they will want change.
I grew up in the church and what I have noticed is that church folk are somethinelse. They are quick to point out someone else's sins, they forgot that lil lie they just told or how they where just gossiping about Sis. Sue and don't even know Sis. Sue; never even said hi to Sis. Sue and ya'll go to the same church and sit right by each other every Sunday!!! I know because I was one of those people at a young age but I was only doing what I saw the older saints do until someone pulled my card one day and made me see that my life was a mess.
Just because you have good morals and you waited until you where married to have sex and you never did drugs; that don't mean a thing, trust me you are still a mess you just can't see it but someone else can. Then again you know you just don't know how to handle it so you put other people out there to take the attention from yourself. I can go on an on but I'm going to leave at that.
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We have homosexuals within our church and choir and our pastor will and does preaches on it, and I care for them very much they are very respectable in the way they carry themselves (not dress out) clean cut and well dressed, they know the word and what is exceptable in God's eyes, and that between them and the Lord, but I believe fully that he who is without sin cast the first stone, therfore I will not judge and throw stones either.
How is it known they are homosexuals? Did they come out and say it....or is it that obvious? I know sometimes with men it seems to be more obvious than with the sisters.
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Dat Maestro...you are a man of God...remember the Holy Spirit lives within you, He cannot live in a place of sin...and dont get it twisted, it's the same for me.If I choose to lay with a man(I am a woman)out of wedlock, I grieve the Holy Spirit..and likewise I see His favor when I considerthat His Glorious being is inside me, watching over me, keeping me...Yes,I have failed before and I have asked God's forgiveness(Hallelujah to the Lamb of God)...my hope is in Him...but really,listen,the pain of restraint is far better than the pain of regret....I regret(painfully) not honoring my Lord and Savior with the sacrifice of my body, holy and acceptable unto Him...it is a regret that I know I will face when I change and stand before Him to recieve my crown...I can only rest in the knowledge that my name is written in the Book of Life and that it hasn't been blotted out,because I LOVE GOD and I WANT TO PLEASE HIM, so I do my BEST to SUBJUGATE THIS FLESH...and that as I lay my crown at His feet, no longer will it be remembered, my sins, nor will it matter.Ican overcome these things of the world by the grace of God. I just wanna make Him smile while I'm here occupying...I want Him to say well done daughter..is that your creed Maestro?If it's not...make it so darlin...I will pray for you, cuz that is my burden, that everyone of us will get to see one another in Heavenly Places and that we come to know one anothers real names(the ones He gave us) as we sit at God's feet and worship Him...
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This topic is under serious debate in My country as we speak. Its all right to say that all sin is sin but we do err because we know not the scriptures. The bible says in 1 Cor. 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. My study on sexual sin conclude that sexual sins require a special deliverance be cause of the soul ties assoiated with the sex act. Like some one said it take time and patience and forsaking friends and places were that life style is prevelant. There is such a thing as "Transferal of spirits" when any sexual act take place wether it be fornicatin, homosexuality,rape, or incess. Emagine the mess when people have muliple partners straight or Gay. Did not Jesus say if any man come after me let him deny him self and take up his cross and follow him. I'm just scractching the surface on this topic.Its a very deep topic and induvidual experences vary. I was in a Convention in Greensboro in May where a Bishop preached who "used" to be "that way" His entorage was not a pretty sight. One pastor said "you visit Geensboro, I live here." He must have stayed 2min. in the service, that's all he could take. One thing I know any one serious about serving God, will make a serious effort to correct their life style. Even if it mean relocating.Is there no one afraid to die from aids anymore?
signed: My heart is heavy.
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I dont believe "active" homosexuals should be a part of leadership in the church. Yes, we all sinned and have come short of the glory of God. But, that does not make excuse for an open sin to be practiced in leadership. Your leadership is supposed to be an example. That doesnt mean exclude homosexuals from the church, but they need to sit down until that stronghold has been broken off of them and they have been delivered.
I believe not only people who practice homosexuality, but also any other sin--lying, stealing, murder, not tithing, should not have a leadership role in ministry. There has to be a difference between the leadership and the parishoners. Otherwise, its like saying, 'we can accept your sin because blah blah blah', when really we just want to cover our own mess.
Leadership has to lead.
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I might be too be late submitting my opinion on the subject, I am very new to the LGM but nevertheless. I have read all posts, some of the things said where good and can help someone in this particular situation. However I still read some posts that were still trying to condemn, throw rocks and hide their hands saying nice things toward the end of their posts. Someone stated that the bible never did say lying was an abomination but fail to quote what the bible actual states about lying and how sinful lying "just is". We can all take a scripture in the bible and debate over whats right and whats not right. Someone quoted that "we are all born with a sinful nature" NOW JUST LOOK AT THAT! I could run all day with that one statement, meaning I could preach that thang(I am from the country). What I am about to say please don't beat me down, (this is something I found out from watching people, but also just by meeting and making friends. Here Goes, we so often put in people boxes and the began to lable them. When meeting someone new when first take notice of their looks pretty, handsome or ugly then notice their attire, the next thing is that we listen very carfully at the tone of the voice detecting the pitch ( high, low or somewhere in between), we also notice their body movements and jesters. Just from those few things before we actual realize it we have place someone in a box lable homosexual. Someone stated how would you know if someone is active only if they admit it to such acts. What I am trying to say is that we all male and female have what we call masculine and feminine ways, oh yes indeed. I think alot of us rush in to give our opinion and quote scriptures so it want look like hidden agenda in our lives. Thats from the head to the tail... Just let God fix it, again hate the sin and not the sinner...and as far as trying to do the opposite well we would be hating on everybody that lives and breathe air..... God knows the heart and those who really are struggling with this matter...I have found that most homosexuals are more in-tune with God than those who profess being water baptized and holy ghost filled. The reason why I say that is once they are out or outted there is no hidden agenda. So becarful in stating opinions and trying to sum people up... Just keep spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.....I believe we shall all be changed in a twinkling of an eye...that's those who are truly seeking the LORD.....BE BLESSED
I love the Lord because He first Loved me..
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I am disappointed with the way some of us have responded to this thread. Very, very disappointed.
Absolutely NOBODY should have defended ACTIVE homosexuals being active in ministry, because the thread is about "ACTIVE Homosexuality", which means the person has NOT given up their lifestyle, and is continuing to practice homosexuality.
NOBODY whose conduct is perpetually sinful should be allowed to serve in ministry.
And don't hand me that "We all have sinned" garbage, because there's a difference between someone sinning, and repenting, and someone who's living an ACTIVE homosexual lifestyle. ACTIVE means you're still doing it. It means that you're a man who is having sexual relations with other man, or a woman who is having sexual relations with other women. The Lord wiped out an entire city for such behavior. Would the Lord now say that it's ok for these individuals to minister in his presence? To Preach the Gospel? To Lead saints in Praise & Worship? :(
There's a difference between lying and then repenting.....
And being a man who has a BOYFRIEND and has no plan on changing.
There's a difference between "Sinning" and living a "Sinful Lifestyle"
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
There's a difference between sinning and CONTINUING in sin.
Don't tell me that "God loves everybody" nonsense, because while God loves EVERYBODY, we ought not to use the Love of God as occasion to live a sinful lifestyle.
If you're a praise & worship leader who is living a willfully sinful life, whether your a Woman with a girlfriend, or a woman who's a murderer, or a woman who is a prostitute, or a man who has a boyfriend, or a man who is a rapist, or a man who is a theif, etc, etc.......You don't get a free pass to do whatever the heck you want because "God understands".
This nonsense must stop. God's grace is sufficient......But we mustn't continue in sin that grace may abound.
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I am disappointed with the way some of us have responded to this thread. Very, very disappointed.
Absolutely NOBODY should have defended ACTIVE homosexuals being active in ministry, because the thread is about "ACTIVE Homosexuality", which means the person has NOT given up their lifestyle, and is continuing to practice homosexuality.
NOBODY whose conduct is perpetually sinful should be allowed to serve in ministry.
And don't hand me that "We all have sinned" garbage, because there's a difference between someone sinning, and repenting, and someone who's living an ACTIVE homosexual lifestyle. ACTIVE means you're still doing it. It means that you're a man who is having sexual relations with other man, or a woman who is having sexual relations with other women. The Lord wiped out an entire city for such behavior. Would the Lord now say that it's ok for these individuals to minister in his presence? To Preach the Gospel? To Lead saints in Praise & Worship? :(
There's a difference between lying and then repenting.....
And being a man who has a BOYFRIEND and has no plan on changing.
There's a difference between "Sinning" and living a "Sinful Lifestyle"
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
There's a difference between sinning and CONTINUING in sin.
Don't tell me that "God loves everybody" nonsense, because while God loves EVERYBODY, we ought not to use the Love of God as occasion to live a sinful lifestyle.
If you're a praise & worship leader who is living a willfully sinful life, whether your a Woman with a girlfriend, or a woman who's a murderer, or a woman who is a prostitute, or a man who has a boyfriend, or a man who is a rapist, or a man who is a theif, etc, etc.......You don't get a free pass to do whatever the heck you want because "God understands".
This nonsense must stop. God's grace is sufficient......But we mustn't continue in sin that grace may abound.
Amen.
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My question is, which I think some others asked, but I don't remember getting an answer, how is it known that they are "active"? We are not in these peoples homes, so we don't know what they are doing or who they are doing it with.
I agree that sin is sin no matter what the sin is, it's sin. I forget who all said it, but if alleged "active" homosexuals should be sat down becasue of sin, then everybody PASTOR, DEACON, CHOIR MEMBERS, MUSICIANS, and eveybody else should be to, because your sin may not be the same as mine and mine not be the same as yours, sin is sin, so then we all should be sat down.
Why is this the most highlighted sin in the church, we seem to forget about Bishop is and has been for years, messin round with Sis. Smith, Sis. Davis, Miss. White and Lord knows who when he goes to a "state meeting", and Deacon Willie leading devotions on Sunday morning with Jack D on his breath from last night, or Sis. Sampson directing the choir while she is 8 months pregnant for the second time with Bro. Joe's baby and their not married, Pookie playing the drums, but he is messin round with the entire alto and soprano section of the youth & young adult choir, Elder Moe, plays the mess out of dat hammond b3, but before service and after he is cussing and beating his wife. Why aren't these things highlighted? ?/?
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My question is, which I think some others asked, but I don't remember getting an answer, how is it known that they are "active"? We are not in these peoples homes, so we don't know what they are doing or who they are doing it with.
I be outside in da bushes wit a camorder so I can take it to the music minister... LOL... Nah, that was my question too, but you would be surprised the people who break their necks tring to find out. I think that it is obvios when a gay musician shows up for church with their boyfriend, or if you see two dykes.. I mean lesbo's, I mean gay women bumpin and grindin at the club... [size=03pt]But I guess you wouldnt know that they was in the club if you wasnt there right??? SO who's sin is worse now??? LOL! Neither cause sin is sin.[/size]But anyway, I think that aside from actually being there watching someone do that there are other ways to know that. [/i]
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I be outside in da bushes wit a camorder so I can take it to the music minister... LOL... Nah, that was my question too, but you would be surprised the people who break their necks tring to find out. I think that it is obvios when a gay musician shows up for church with their boyfriend, or if you see two dykes.. I mean lesbo's, I mean gay women bumpin and grindin at the club... [size=03pt]But I guess you wouldnt know that they was in the club if you wasnt there right??? SO who's sin is worse now??? LOL! Neither cause sin is sin.[/size]But anyway, I think that aside from actually being there watching someone do that there are other ways to know that. [/i]
:D :D :D LMBO, but see so how you know that's his boyfriend? ;D ?/? We can assume and speculate, but until we had the facts we can't say the Kwane or Dee-Dee are gay or lesbian, and even if they are overly feminine or masculine, that still doesn't give anyone any right to say they are. Oh, and just remember that not all masculine men and Feminine women are straight.
And the other thing is like you said Nakia, how woluld you know that so and so was at the club bumpin & grinding? But you don't want that to be addressed do you? :-X ::) That is the problem that a lot of peoople have with "church folk", so many are quick to point the finger about WHAT THEY THINK THEY KNOW ABOUT SO & SO, or how so and so acts, or dresses, or where they were seen and with who, doing whatever, but WHAT ARE YOU DOING THAT YOUR HOUSE IS SO CLEAN?!?!?!?! Let somebody mention about you have 6 kids by 5 different men, and only 1 of them being by your husband, or you Bro. James being married but got Kee-Kee knocked up not once but twice, while you were married, you don't wanna talk about that do you? ::) ?/? :-X
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:D :D :D LMBO, but see so how you know that's his boyfriend? ;D ?/? We can assume and speculate, but until we had the facts we can't say the Kwane or Dee-Dee are gay or lesbian, and even if they are overly feminine or masculine, that still doesn't give anyone any right to say they are. Oh, and just remember that not all masculine men and Feminine women are straight.
And the other thing is like you said Nakia, how woluld you know that so and so was at the club bumpin & grinding? But you don't want that to be addressed do you? :-X ::) That is the problem that a lot of peoople have with "church folk", so many are quick to point the finger about WHAT THEY THINK THEY KNOW ABOUT SO & SO, or how so and so acts, or dresses, or where they were seen and with who, doing whatever, but WHAT ARE YOU DOING THAT YOUR HOUSE IS SO CLEAN?!?!?!?! Let somebody mention about you have 6 kids by 5 different men, and only 1 of them being by your husband, or you Bro. James being married but got Kee-Kee knocked up not once but twice, while you were married, you don't wanna talk about that do you? ::) ?/? :-X
some are bold enough to let you know they are "active"
Sometimes if they don't say it, their other half is going around talking about it, esp. if the other half is not in the church and not trying to hide it.
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I am disappointed with the way some of us have responded to this thread. Very, very disappointed.
Absolutely NOBODY should have defended ACTIVE homosexuals being active in ministry, because the thread is about "ACTIVE Homosexuality", which means the person has NOT given up their lifestyle, and is continuing to practice homosexuality.
NOBODY whose conduct is perpetually sinful should be allowed to serve in ministry.
And don't hand me that "We all have sinned" garbage, because there's a difference between someone sinning, and repenting, and someone who's living an ACTIVE homosexual lifestyle. ACTIVE means you're still doing it. It means that you're a man who is having sexual relations with other man, or a woman who is having sexual relations with other women. The Lord wiped out an entire city for such behavior. Would the Lord now say that it's ok for these individuals to minister in his presence? To Preach the Gospel? To Lead saints in Praise & Worship? :(
There's a difference between lying and then repenting.....
And being a man who has a BOYFRIEND and has no plan on changing.
There's a difference between "Sinning" and living a "Sinful Lifestyle"
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
There's a difference between sinning and CONTINUING in sin.
Don't tell me that "God loves everybody" nonsense, because while God loves EVERYBODY, we ought not to use the Love of God as occasion to live a sinful lifestyle.
If you're a praise & worship leader who is living a willfully sinful life, whether your a Woman with a girlfriend, or a woman who's a murderer, or a woman who is a prostitute, or a man who has a boyfriend, or a man who is a rapist, or a man who is a theif, etc, etc.......You don't get a free pass to do whatever the heck you want because "God understands".
This nonsense must stop. God's grace is sufficient......But we mustn't continue in sin that grace may abound.
Amen, and thank you for taking a stand.
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:( :( It hurts my heart to read so many fleshy thoughts on this issue,,,yes its just plain fleshie... followers of Christ know to leave all jugument to God... I love the Lord.. He heard my cry.. I have struggled with this lifestyle for years and for years I called myself a homosexual and I was saved... But oppressed and didn't know. However, today I dont consider myself a labled sin,but " a sinner saved by grace" Yes my sin was much more visible then the adulterer or fornicator but it is all a sin and people tend to rebuke the person and not the sin. For years I allowed that hollier then thou attitude from others, to keep me from the church even though I loved the Lord and I too needed to be under the word just like everyone else, I just didn't feel any Godly love from those people in the very places that are to be a sort of refuge from the world. Today because God changed my heart and spirit I dont forsake the fellowship of my brothers and sisters in Christ even though there are a few that will always think of myself and others as the plaque ,Yes I might always keep a pimp to my walk, but does that say that I am ACTIVE gay or that brother my always keep that soft pitch voice does say that he is ACTIVE gay. I understand and know in my heart that everyday is a daily reprieve from something and it doesn't have to be just be a lust issue, but anything like gossip or overeatting. Now I'm not saying that I intend on abusing God's grace either. But there is a process one goes through to take on the new spirit man (The renewing of the mind) To some I might still look like I'm gay, because I'm not married and I dont want to get married some folk just arent to be, that is for me. But those persons only look at the suface because thats all they can tap into.. [But no one should tell another that they cant be of service to the body of Christ because they "look like" they are active in a sin.. thats stimga.. thats just crazy. Who am I to tell someone" Ok it appears to me that you haven't had a lustful thought for about six months so we want to welcome you back in the choir" I dont have that power no one does.We are all broken living in this flesh until we take on our new bodies. Praise the Lord for that day. I sing in the choir today because he gave me that gift for song and he is perfect in all his ways. My ablity to use this gift that he givin me allows me to be of service for him, and this help me While he is still working a renewal in me everyday.Thats my walk with Christ,I know that everyone falls short, we have to pray for each other not to though. Because souls aren't being reached with all that jugdment mess...God's Love was the attraction that bought me out from the world.
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:( :( It hurts my heart to read so many fleshy thoughts on this issue,,,yes its just plain fleshie... followers of Christ know to leave all jugument to God... I love the Lord.. He heard my cry.. I have struggled with this lifestyle for years and for years I called myself a homosexual and I was saved... But oppressed and didn't know. However, today I dont consider myself a labled sin,but " a sinner saved by grace" Yes my sin was much more visible then the adulterer or fornicator but it is all a sin and people tend to rebuke the person and not the sin. For years I allowed that hollier then thou attitude from others, to keep me from the church even though I loved the Lord and I too needed to be under the word just like everyone else, I just didn't feel any Godly love from those people in the very places that are to be a sort of refuge from the world. Today because God changed my heart and spirit I dont forsake the fellowship of my brothers and sisters in Christ even though there are a few that will always think of myself and others as the plaque ,Yes I might always keep a pimp to my walk, but does that say that I am ACTIVE gay or that brother my always keep that soft pitch voice does say that he is ACTIVE gay. I understand and know in my heart that everyday is a daily reprieve from something and it doesn't have to be just be a lust issue, but anything like gossip or overeatting. Now I'm not saying that I intend on abusing God's grace either. But there is a process one goes through to take on the new spirit man (The renewing of the mind) To some I might still look like I'm gay, because I'm not married and I dont want to get married some folk just arent to be, that is for me. But those persons only look at the suface because thats all they can tap into.. [But no one should tell another that they cant be of service to the body of Christ because they "look like" they are active in a sin.. thats stimga.. thats just crazy. Who am I to tell someone" Ok it appears to me that you haven't had a lustful thought for about six months so we want to welcome you back in the choir" I dont have that power no one does.We are all broken living in this flesh until we take on our new bodies. Praise the Lord for that day. I sing in the choir today because he gave me that gift for song and he is perfect in all his ways. My ablity to use this gift that he givin me allows me to be of service for him, and this help me While he is still working a renewal in me everyday.Thats my walk with Christ,I know that everyone falls short, we have to pray for each other not to though. Because souls aren't being reached with all that jugdment mess...God's Love was the attraction that bought me out from the world.
No Judgement.
I was not referring to those who LOOK like they're active. I'm referring to those who ARE active and have confessed to being active.
I commend you on turning your life around. I'm not a pastor yet, but when I am, I would receive you and anyone else into the fellowship with open arms.
As God has forgotten your past, so would I.
BUT
Until I see a certain walk with God, one cannot minister, whether that be singing, playing an instrument, preaching, etc.
That does not ONLY apply to homosexuality.
The only requirement is that you have clean hands and a pure heart. If you have stopped doing what you were doing, then you DESERVE to be on the choir, because FEELINGS aren't a sin. You can't control your feelings, but you CAN control your actions.
No judgement took place in my post. The fact of the matter is: Sin is Sin. The reason why homosexuality has been singled out is because it's become politically incorrect to speak against homosexuality. There are now Gay Catholic priests. Lying and kiilling is still wrong, but in the minds of some, speaking against homosexuality is the equivalent of bigotry.
If every word out of someones mouth is a lie, they shouldn't lead in ministry. If some one is fornicating, they shouldn't lead in ministry. If someone is a thief, they shouldn't lead in ministry. If someone is an ACTIVE homosexual (not merely suspected, but KNOWN to be active) they should NOT LEAD IN MINISTRY.
This is not an attack on homosexuals, but a stand for righteousness. You've turned your life around, and have taken the same stand for righteousness. I love you, and pray your continued strength in the Lord. :)
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:D :D :D LMBO, but see so how you know that's his boyfriend? ;D ?/? We can assume and speculate, but until we had the facts we can't say the Kwane or Dee-Dee are gay or lesbian, and even if they are overly feminine or masculine, that still doesn't give anyone any right to say they are. Oh, and just remember that not all masculine men and Feminine women are straight.
And the other thing is like you said Nakia, how woluld you know that so and so was at the club bumpin & grinding? But you don't want that to be addressed do you? :-X ::) That is the problem that a lot of peoople have with "church folk", so many are quick to point the finger about WHAT THEY THINK THEY KNOW ABOUT SO & SO, or how so and so acts, or dresses, or where they were seen and with who, doing whatever, but WHAT ARE YOU DOING THAT YOUR HOUSE IS SO CLEAN?!?!?!?! Let somebody mention about you have 6 kids by 5 different men, and only 1 of them being by your husband, or you Bro. James being married but got Kee-Kee knocked up not once but twice, while you were married, you don't wanna talk about that do you? ::) ?/? :-X
Sin is sin. We're addressing homosexuality because that's the topic of THIS THREAD. Your post reminds of Adam and Eve when they were caught.
Adam: "What about Eve? SHE GAVE ME THE FRUIT!!!"
Eve: "What about the Serpent? HE BEGUILED ME!!!"
lol. Sin is sin. ALL sin is wrong. We cannot justify our faults by saying: "Hey we all have faults. That means MY fault is ok!!!"
Yes, we all have faults. But we must try to CORRECT them. Sin is STILL wrong. I make mistakes like everyone else. No one is perfect. But we should strive for perfection!
Grace must not be abused.
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some are bold enough to let you know they are "active"
Sometimes if they don't say it, their other half is going around talking about it, esp. if the other half is not in the church and not trying to hide it.
Tru dat...
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Sin is sin. We're addressing homosexuality because that's the topic of THIS THREAD. Your post reminds of Adam and Eve when they were caught.
Adam: "What about Eve? SHE GAVE ME THE FRUIT!!!"
Eve: "What about the Serpent? HE BEGUILED ME!!!"
lol. Sin is sin. ALL sin is wrong. We cannot justify our faults by saying: "Hey we all have faults. That means MY fault is ok!!!"
Yes, we all have faults. But we must try to CORRECT them. Sin is STILL wrong. I make mistakes like everyone else. No one is perfect. But we should strive for perfection!
Grace must not be abused.
No Judgement.
I was not referring to those who LOOK like they're active. I'm referring to those who ARE active and have confessed to being active.
I commend you on turning your life around. I'm not a pastor yet, but when I am, I would receive you and anyone else into the fellowship with open arms.
As God has forgotten your past, so would I.
BUT
Until I see a certain walk with God, one cannot minister, whether that be singing, playing an instrument, preaching, etc.
That does not ONLY apply to homosexuality.
The only requirement is that you have clean hands and a pure heart. If you have stopped doing what you were doing, then you DESERVE to be on the choir, because FEELINGS aren't a sin. You can't control your feelings, but you CAN control your actions.
No judgement took place in my post. The fact of the matter is: Sin is Sin. The reason why homosexuality has been singled out is because it's become politically incorrect to speak against homosexuality. There are now Gay Catholic priests. Lying and kiilling is still wrong, but in the minds of some, speaking against homosexuality is the equivalent of bigotry.
If every word out of someones mouth is a lie, they shouldn't lead in ministry. If some one is fornicating, they shouldn't lead in ministry. If someone is a thief, they shouldn't lead in ministry. If someone is an ACTIVE homosexual (not merely suspected, but KNOWN to be active) they should NOT LEAD IN MINISTRY.
This is not an attack on homosexuals, but a stand for righteousness. You've turned your life around, and have taken the same stand for righteousness. I love you, and pray your continued strength in the Lord. :)
Well put Sir!!
I know those responses came straight from the Holy Ghost! No Judgement involved here... Much love for everyone, but right is right. I pray that anyone who was offended by your post will take time to look a little closer and actually read the words in your post, with an open mind. They'll see that there is No judgement involved! It's tight but nevertheless it's right
Later Family :)
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Welcome bartone8 and cuteshell
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Welcome bartone8 and cuteshell
1100+ posts later, and you never welcomed me.... LOL!! Kidding.
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Praise the Lord,
This is a very interesting topic. It's very sad to see where the church stands on a lot of issues. Homosexuality should be held on the same standard as fornication, lying, stealing, etc. It's all sin and if the pastor knows issues like these are running rampant in their churches then they need to handle the situation point blank. People keep repeating the same scriptures about how "we all fall short", "saved by grace", "let him without sin cast the first stone", etc.Yes those are all true but don't get on here and quote scriptures and not truly understand the distinct meaning behind them. We're not judging by rebuking sin here. If pastors were truly under the annointing of GOD and were living right they would not knowingly allow this stuff to happen. We fail to talk about what really matters here. Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. It's not easy by no means. For some its harder than others. I pray for people like that. 1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith? We as a church have to pray these spirits away from the church. Satan is having a field day watching the church fall to such abominations. Here we go again, sin is sin but everyone who is wrong needs to be sat down. Pastors who are led by GOD know how to handle their flock. If someone has a spirit of lying, fornication, stealing, envy, etc. they need to be silenced. Now come on now, let's use common sense. If someone tells a lie should he/she sit down? Not necessarily, they may need to council with the pastor and get some help on this issue. But they don't want that lie to birth into a lying spirit. This case then they do need to sit down also. Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. We have to pursue this thing (salvation) saints of GOD. Even if you do all of your dirt undercover, you may fool the church...but you can't fool GOD. He knows all, sees all. 1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? You mean to tell me that GOD is not true to his word. Everyone should be scared for their own souls. Do you really believe that all this mess is acceptable in the sight of the all mighty GOD. GOD is able saints. We don't have to fall. Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. People shouldn't say people are judging them when they are trying minister their souls. Doesn't the bible speak about how can we hear without a preacher? How can we hear except he is sent (Romans 10:14). I am paraphrasing here but here's where it's found. But we have to realize that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is coming back for a church (people) without spot nor wrinkle. Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ironically this scripture is referring to how husbands should treat their wives and so forth. Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...etc. Saints read 2 Tim. 3:17, 2 Corin. 7:1, 13:11 for other references on perfection. Let's get ready saints for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. We only get one chance to make it right!
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Praise the Lord,
This is a very interesting topic. It's very sad to see where the church stands on a lot of issues. Homosexuality should be held on the same standard as fornication, lying, stealing, etc. It's all sin and if the pastor knows issues like these are running rampant in their churches then they need to handle the situation point blank. People keep repeating the same scriptures about how "we all fall short", "saved by grace", "let him without sin cast the first stone", etc.Yes those are all true but don't get on here and quote scriptures and not truly understand the distinct meaning behind them. We're not judging by rebuking sin here. If pastors were truly under the annointing of GOD and were living right they would not knowingly allow this stuff to happen. We fail to talk about what really matters here. Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. It's not easy by no means. For some its harder than others. I pray for people like that. 1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith? We as a church have to pray these spirits away from the church. Satan is having a field day watching the church fall to such abominations. Here we go again, sin is sin but everyone who is wrong needs to be sat down. Pastors who are led by GOD know how to handle their flock. If someone has a spirit of lying, fornication, stealing, envy, etc. they need to be silenced. Now come on now, let's use common sense. If someone tells a lie should he/she sit down? Not necessarily, they may need to council with the pastor and get some help on this issue. But they don't want that lie to birth into a lying spirit. This case then they do need to sit down also. Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. We have to pursue this thing (salvation) saints of GOD. Even if you do all of your dirt undercover, you may fool the church...but you can't fool GOD. He knows all, sees all. 1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? You mean to tell me that GOD is not true to his word. Everyone should be scared for their own souls. Do you really believe that all this mess is acceptable in the sight of the all mighty GOD. GOD is able saints. We don't have to fall. Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. People shouldn't say people are judging them when they are trying minister their souls. Doesn't the bible speak about how can we hear without a preacher? How can we hear except he is sent (Romans 10:14). I am paraphrasing here but here's where it's found. But we have to realize that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is coming back for a church (people) without spot nor wrinkle. Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ironically this scripture is referring to how husbands should treat their wives and so forth. Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...etc. Saints read 2 Tim. 3:17, 2 Corin. 7:1, 13:11 for other references on perfection. Let's get ready saints for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. We only get one chance to make it right!
Amen djmiller
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Welcome to LGM, djmiller
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I believe that if you are doing a ministry w/in the church and your lifestyle is a sin, rather it be homosexual, a drug addict, etc, then you should not be allowed to be in that ministy, the reason is because, as being in a ministry or leadership, then it will send the wrong message to people who are new to Christ...
I agree 100%, anyone WILLFULLY living in ANY TYPE of sin or PRACTICING, should not be allowed to operate in ministry (period) until they're no longer willfully sinning. Other than homosexuality, but includes LYING, holding on to grudges (Jesus even spoke against partaking of communion while holding a grudge against someone), adultery, fornication, cigarette/drug smoking, alcoholism, indulging in witchcraft, persons with horrible attitude issues, gossipers, husbands of more than one wife and vice versa, gambling/betting, swearing, this list could go on and on etc. (Just thought I'd mention a few things that people don't seem to consider to be sinful, yet is more prevalent amongst church folks, than homosexuality). We can't read a person's heart, only God has that capability. A person could've lived a homosexual lifestyle at once, and we may still see the evidence on that person, but the person may not be currently practicing that lifestyle or living in sin. Just so happens that some sexual sins are noticed outwardly so we can see it and act on it. Other sins are not so readily noticeable, so we tend to act as if it's not there. God spoke agains ALL sins, so maybe a lot of folks might need to take a seat.
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I think that it is a bit EXTREME to say that if you are a SINNER (which is what we all are by nature) then you CANNOT be a part of the ministry.
Homosexuality is one of those sins that is broadcast all over right in your face. No one wears a Tshirt that says LIAR, or a hat that says DRUNKKARD. But it just so happens that gay people often have a lable on their lifestyle whereas you almost see that TSHIRT that says GAY! In ohther words, a lot of the are blatantly showing us that this is their lifestyle.
The same with the woman or man who is practicing fornication. If they are actively sleeping with woman after woman, and man after man. They too should be sat down.
I think that a lot of it lies in the heart of the sinner. This is not to say that they are not saved, they just need to repent that lifestyle, and be sat down until a change takes place. If this person has the attitude that says they ARE NOT willing to change their lifestyle, then they need to be sat down.... If their heart is leaning towards repentance, then shey would willingly be sat down, be counselled and then prayerfully be returned to their position in the church.
But one way that a lot of this can be changed is that if the church stops looking at homosexuality as the Christian mans kryptonite. We are to help them and love them the same way we would the drunk, the wife beater and the liar. Their sin is no larger than the man who killed three people last year or the man that raped the woman. If we as the church look to help and stand on Gods word and not our own understading, we will be strong in breaking barriers, and strongholds that this illness has on our people.
There is a very thin, but well defined line about this matter. But it too is also an issue that faces us all.
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The bible declares its position on all sins so that isn't negotiable no matter what the sin is. The rich young ruler went away sadly because he was very rich in this life but poor spiritually. He said he kept all of the commandments from his birth(religion). How much more are we not like this man in the gospels?. The term perfection in the bible means maturity. God expects for us to mature from certain sins and setbacks that were/are stumbling blocks to us arriving to the maturity that he is calling for us. Sexual sin is such an abomination because it literally makes God sick. That is the definition of the word. When jesus told the crowd to throw the stones if they were without sin was to challenge their worthiness to judge and also to highlight that they went about confronting the issue the wrong way. Notice they said they caught the woman in the very act. The crowd had no right to be in a position to catch her in the act in the first place. Jesus gave the woman forgiveness after he asked where her accussers scattered to. Jesus forgave sin but with a caution of not to do it again. So he didn't condone the sin but he allowed her another opportunity to get it right. We are never in position to judge but only say what God says.
The scripture tells us not to judge unless we be judged. A judge in the court of law can hear the verdict of guilt and assign punishment. That's the power of a judge which showsthat someone who is being critical should acknowledge the authority that they speak from. Jesus said to fear the one that can put the soul in hell not the one who can attack or kill the body! If we are in sexual sin or any sin for that matter then can we say that we have Godly fear? We have allowed people to incorrectly define judgement as speaking against sin. This has become the standard in Mainstream media's push for the latest sexual perversion (homosexuality) to be accepted. We have already accepted the perversion on the heterosexual side starting in the 1960's. The bible is very clear about us having chances to repent. The parable of the foolish virgins, the parables about the servants and their lords coming to inspect their work. That's why God gives us grace not so that we can repeat the sins over and over. Sexual spirits left uncorrected can be transferred via music and direct contact with someone that you aren't in covenant with(marriage). What makes the sin of homosexuality so sickening to God is that the act doesn't bear any fruit(children) God expects results when he calls us. So that's why individuals who aren't were they should be spiritually must be sat down.
That's why most fellowships are bewitched. The bible never really intended for one person to preach the word to a fellowship of believers. We have the five fold giftings all try to operate as pastors when all 5 gifts should be in one fellowship!!! That's another discussion. These sexual demons must be cast out. I'm reminded of when the disciples couldn't cast out some demons and the people brought the person to jesus saying that your disciples can't cast out these devils. Wonder if that's the problem in our churches. Is it that we so focus on building on own empires that the power to cast out devils and expose the enemies devices have left because our own agenda as entered. I digress.
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.....That's why most fellowships are bewitched. The bible never really intended for one person to preach the word to a fellowship of believers. We have the five fold giftings all try to operate as pastors when all 5 gifts should be in one fellowship!!! .......
Elaborate.
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I believe that if all five fold ministries are in operation in one fellowship then you have the teacher who instructs new converts as well as have an opportunty to use his teaching gift to edify that fellowship in their walk with God. I believe that an effective evangelistic team should be in operation under the direction of someone who has a heart and deep gifting of compelling the lost outside of the fellowship. I believe that an apostle is someone who is under special assignment to establish order in the fellowship by way of constantly admonishing the fellowship on the different tatics the enemy has to destroy that body of belivers.The prophet is there to hear from God about specifics on the spiritual and earthly direction of the church. Then that person should be able to communicate what God showed them and their prophecies should have a manifestion according to the obedience of the people. The pastor job is to see after the care of the people both in his sermons and with the counsel of the people. Keep in mind all of these people are gifted to preach!! All of this should exist in one house but it doesn't because of egos and a zeal to preach. Then enters in who is going to get the most financially, how does the people respond to this person i.e. Saul killed his thousands but David killed his tens of thousands.
That's why it is important to have those offices operate in one house. No one person should be exclusive to just do all the preaching every Sunday!! It creates a atomosphere of that one person becoming a diety. Most fellowships fall into this horrible trap.It has been something the body of Christ have struggled with even before this generation. In my sincerest belief and study I really believe that what all of those gifts are for. Not so one person should collect a fat check and teach that the anointing flows from God to him then to the body!!! That is the doctrine of men!!! We don't need the annointing just to flow from on person. The holy spirit is able to fall on anyone who is willing to recieve him. The prophet Joel and the book of Acts refutes this doctrine. The holy spirit fell on all the 120 in the upper room not just Peter.. This is one of many examples that I have discovered in this modern mega church era that has swept our nation leaving behind Leaders and parishoners who are full of dead man's bones.
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The solution for this is the fact that not all sin is an abomination. Homosexuality is one of those abominations, which makes it worse.
We should always feel inadequate to stand before God. To me if I don't see that, then that person is dangerous. Whether you be a homosexual or not, the church may seem like a hang-out sometimes, but if the Word is being preached correctly then it's not. Even if the person's motives for coming is faulty. The Word will convict them sooner or later, whether it be now or on the Day of Judgement. In a perfect world, we would all strive for perfection daily, but the world isn't perfect, and we all have things that we haven't died to yet.
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I believe that if all five fold ministries are in operation in one fellowship then you have the teacher who instructs new converts as well as have an opportunty to use his teaching gift to edify that fellowship in their walk with God. I believe that an effective evangelistic team should be in operation under the direction of someone who has a heart and deep gifting of compelling the lost outside of the fellowship. I believe that an apostle is someone who is under special assignment to establish order in the fellowship by way of constantly admonishing the fellowship on the different tatics the enemy has to destroy that body of belivers.The prophet is there to hear from God about specifics on the spiritual and earthly direction of the church. Then that person should be able to communicate what God showed them and their prophecies should have a manifestion according to the obedience of the people. The pastor job is to see after the care of the people both in his sermons and with the counsel of the people. Keep in mind all of these people are gifted to preach!! All of this should exist in one house but it doesn't because of egos and a zeal to preach. Then enters in who is going to get the most financially, how does the people respond to this person i.e. Saul killed his thousands but David killed his tens of thousands.
That's why it is important to have those offices operate in one house. No one person should be exclusive to just do all the preaching every Sunday!! It creates a atomosphere of that one person becoming a diety. Most fellowships fall into this horrible trap.It has been something the body of Christ have struggled with even before this generation. In my sincerest belief and study I really believe that what all of those gifts are for. Not so one person should collect a fat check and teach that the anointing flows from God to him then to the body!!! That is the doctrine of men!!! We don't need the annointing just to flow from on person. The holy spirit is able to fall on anyone who is willing to recieve him. The prophet Joel and the book of Acts refutes this doctrine. The holy spirit fell on all the 120 in the upper room not just Peter.. This is one of many examples that I have discovered in this modern mega church era that has swept our nation leaving behind Leaders and parishoners who are full of dead man's bones.
No, not necessarily.
Being an evangelist does not NECESSARILY mean you're gifted to preach.
Being a prophet does not NECESSARILY mean you're gifted to preach.
I do however believe that some Pastors are quick to seek outside preachers, as opposed to nurturing and grooming the gifts of their flock.
I agree that it's important to have the five-fold ministries in operation.
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I don't want to come across as a know it all and please forgive me if I do. John the Baptist was an Evanglelist and his message was REPENT. We have to shed the old paradigm of God moving through one person. Jesus sent the 70 out to evanglelize and please believe there was some preaching going on. Jonah was an Evangelist. My train of thought comes from more than one person being the primary speaker in fellowships. Every gift in the 5 fold can preach. Steven was a decon was stoned for doing what... preaching. All preaching is public speaking.A person that does a presentation at their company is doing the same thing. We see preaching most times in church as the person that can hoop and change chords with the organist. We have people that love the personality more than they love the word.
The bible says faith comes by hearing. Notice it didn't say faith comes by listening. Hearing in biblical terms are people who listened and then implemented what listened to which equals to hearing. The word adhere means to do instructions given. I don't expect things to conform to radical ideas however I do know that bibically a lot of my ideas are in line with scripture. I do appreciate the fact that most people believe the way things are now line up too but look at the mass result.
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I don't want to come across as a know it all and please forgive me if I do. John the Baptist was an Evanglelist and his message was REPENT. We have to shed the old paradigm of God moving through one person. Jesus sent the 70 out to evanglelize and please believe there was some preaching going on. Jonah was an Evangelist. My train of thought comes from more than one person being the primary speaker in fellowships. Every gift in the 5 fold can preach. Steven was a decon was stoned for doing what... preaching. All preaching is public speaking.A person that does a presentation at their company is doing the same thing. We see preaching most times in church as the person that can hoop and change chords with the organist. We have people that love the personality more than they love the word.
The bible says faith comes by hearing. Notice it didn't say faith comes by listening. Hearing in biblical terms are people who listened and then implemented what listened to which equals to hearing. The word adhere means to do instructions given. I don't expect things to conform to radical ideas however I do know that bibically a lot of my ideas are in line with scripture. I do appreciate the fact that most people believe the way things are now line up too but look at the mass result.
The Pastor is the PRIMARY speaker. Always.
Preaching is NOT simply public speaking. And someone doing a presentation at a company is NOT the same as preaching. I know as I've done both. lol.
It seems you're merging Evangelism with Preaching, which is simply not accurate. We are ALL supposed to tell others about Christ. We are not all called to preach. That's simply not true.
Nowadays there are alot of folk who have an itch to preach, and they don't know how dangerous it is. When you preach, the devil comes after you harder than ever before.
I understand and agree with some of the things you're saying. I agree, that when you DO have someone who is called to preach, that gift should be developed and not crushed or smothered. I agree that when you find a
Faithful
Available, and
Teachable
individual, that person should be used in ministry, as long as their life is suitable for service.
But every Deacon, Minister, and Evangelist in the church doesn't get an opportunity to preach because they're there.
Preaching is more than public speaking. It's a calling.
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Look up the word calling and you will find it means interest or the word passion. Preaching is only warning people or instructing people. The term practice what you preach isn't a general term for nothing. Most people are still stuck in what people have defined preaching as what we've seen in church all our lives. The bible says how can they here without a preacher and how can he preach unless he be sent... Everyone that is converted to God is sent to preach because Jesus said that after you have recieved power from on high then you will be witnesses of me. That is verbally sharing your faith to people who are lost. Haven't you ever found yourself in a position to witness to people after a impromptu discussion about God popped up. If that witness was strong enough GOD lead you in what to say because the discussion turns to a every listening to you because they find the wisdom and knowledge that flows through you as strange? That's called preaching my friend. Whatever spiritual gift any believer has he is obligated to be prepared to witness for God. To answer my on question it has happened to me several times in my life. These times occurred most before I acknowledged the call on my life. A call on ones life is only an assigment from God. God is smart enough to book in advance because everyone doesn't choose him. That's what that scripture really means about many being called but few are chosen. It really means few really choose to carry out the assignment or get sidetracked. See the parable of the sower for details.
The mega church mentality along with unbiblical doctrines about how to get involved in the preaching ministry has warped the church into thinking that the man or woman of God is a Diety which is witchcraft. Some churches don't want you to walk in the pulpit or move the rostrum for weddings and all kind of spooky religious stuff that absolutely has nothing to do with God. I respect your views however my views are radical by nature and it is part of my calling and who I am. I will never disregard healthy discussion of the bible however I have discovered that a true walk with God is hearing his voice and learning to be sensitive to his voice. Notice he said my sheep know my voice and not my word. He also instructed us on how to allow the word of God to Abide in us. So it is a happy medium between the 2.
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Look up the word calling and you will find it means interest or the word passion. Preaching is only warning people or instructing people. The term practice what you preach isn't a general term for nothing. Most people are still stuck in what people have defined preaching as what we've seen in church all our lives. The bible says how can they here without a preacher and how can he preach unless he be sent... Everyone that is converted to God is sent to preach because Jesus said that after you have recieved power from on high then you will be witnesses of me. That is verbally sharing your faith to people who are lost. Haven't you ever found yourself in a position to witness to people after a impromptu discussion about God popped up. If that witness was strong enough GOD lead you in what to say because the discussion turns to a every listening to you because they find the wisdom and knowledge that flows through you as strange? That's called preaching my friend. Whatever spiritual gift any believer has he is obligated to be prepared to witness for God. To answer my on question it has happened to me several times in my life. These times occurred most before I acknowledged the call on my life. A call on ones life is only an assigment from God. God is smart enough to book in advance because everyone doesn't choose him. That's what that scripture really means about many being called but few are chosen. It really means few really choose to carry out the assignment or get sidetracked. See the parable of the sower for details.
The mega church mentality along with unbiblical doctrines about how to get involved in the preaching ministry has warped the church into thinking that the man or woman of God is a Diety which is witchcraft. Some churches don't want you to walk in the pulpit or move the rostrum for weddings and all kind of spooky religious stuff that absolutely has nothing to do with God. I respect your views however my views are radical by nature and it is part of my calling and who I am. I will never disregard healthy discussion of the bible however I have discovered that a true walk with God is hearing his voice and learning to be sensitive to his voice. Notice he said my sheep know my voice and not my word. He also instructed us on how to allow the word of God to Abide in us. So it is a happy medium between the 2
A happy medium, or do you need to do both fully? They certainly are not opposite of each other, they actually support each other. All scripture is given by inspiration of God so I don't think any of it is merely suggestions or irrelevant thoughts of man as you seemed to say in another thread.
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Look up the word calling and you will find it means interest or the word passion. Preaching is only warning people or instructing people. The term practice what you preach isn't a general term for nothing. Most people are still stuck in what people have defined preaching as what we've seen in church all our lives. The bible says how can they here without a preacher and how can he preach unless he be sent... Everyone that is converted to God is sent to preach because Jesus said that after you have recieved power from on high then you will be witnesses of me. That is verbally sharing your faith to people who are lost. Haven't you ever found yourself in a position to witness to people after a impromptu discussion about God popped up. If that witness was strong enough GOD lead you in what to say because the discussion turns to a every listening to you because they find the wisdom and knowledge that flows through you as strange? That's called preaching my friend. Whatever spiritual gift any believer has he is obligated to be prepared to witness for God. To answer my on question it has happened to me several times in my life. These times occurred most before I acknowledged the call on my life. A call on ones life is only an assigment from God. God is smart enough to book in advance because everyone doesn't choose him. That's what that scripture really means about many being called but few are chosen. It really means few really choose to carry out the assignment or get sidetracked. See the parable of the sower for details.
The mega church mentality along with unbiblical doctrines about how to get involved in the preaching ministry has warped the church into thinking that the man or woman of God is a Diety which is witchcraft. Some churches don't want you to walk in the pulpit or move the rostrum for weddings and all kind of spooky religious stuff that absolutely has nothing to do with God. I respect your views however my views are radical by nature and it is part of my calling and who I am. I will never disregard healthy discussion of the bible however I have discovered that a true walk with God is hearing his voice and learning to be sensitive to his voice. Notice he said my sheep know my voice and not my word. He also instructed us on how to allow the word of God to Abide in us. So it is a happy medium between the 2.
Again, it seems you're merging "Preaching" with "witnessing". I assure you they aren't the same.
Are you currently sitting under a Pastor? If so, how long have you been sitting under your current Pastor?
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Let me first begin by saying the post says "active" -- which implies that one is "willingly" walking in sin -- leaders should do their best to ensure that those whom they assume some responsibility over, have a walk worthy of their calling. Open and unconfessed sin should never be allowed to go without confronting. And that goes for any sin - not just homosexuality.
As far as Christians not having the right to judge one another -- or -- he who is without sin, cast the first stone -- let's keep these in context. We, as Christians, do a great disservice to the body of Christ by ignoring open sin/misconduct. Whatever happened to the scriptures that say, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work"
Don't dismiss/ignor open sin -- confront it. "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" -- "because the soul that sins shall surely die". Speak the truth in love. "Brethren, if a man is overtaken in ANY trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." "An open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed."
I read through all of the replies to this post -- and I saw a lot of people refer to the large amount of sin in the church, and stated that was a good reason not to sit someone down from ministry. Becasue the reasoning was, if we sit one sinner down, we sit them all down -- then we have no one left to minister. This logic is out of balance. It's this kind of mind-set that has brought the church to the state that it is now. We need to work on cleaning up the church, eliminate the compromise. We are supposed to be growing up -- not maintaining in our sin. Leadership needs to step up to the plate and be accountable and responsible -- for they are gifted for the "equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ". If they refuse, then they themselves should step down. Sin cannot be left alone...because "A little leaven will leaven the whole lump" -- this passage of scripture actually deals with sexual immorality in the church!
As far as the leadership themselves walking in sin -- bad on them. There are some specific qualifications for the primary leaders in the church (see 1 Timothy 3). If they can't walk blameless and worthy before God, maybe you need to consider another place to fellowship.
Bottom line -- we are to be vessels of honor, not dishonor. "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work." So, if one refuses to cleanse themself from sin -- they shouldn't even consider themselves USEFUL for the Master. "Be ye holy for I am holy!"
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Again, it seems you're merging "Preaching" with "witnessing". I assure you they aren't the same.
Are you currently sitting under a Pastor? If so, how long have you been sitting under your current Pastor?
Are you there Furious Styles?
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Maybe this topic has run its course... again. ;)
I must say, I am proud of us, fam. We were able to discuss the finer points of the issue at hand, without any name calling or getting upset or out of hand. Undoubtedly, this topic will keep surfacing because people join the site every day and wish to participate in the discussion, but as long as everyone can discuss and disagree without getting heated, discussion can be healthy and positive.
I dare say that almost every viewpoint has been raised at least once, so it would probably be wise to read the whole thread before posting to avoid redundancy.
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Hello family...
I'm through with this topic, so can someone please tell me how to stop this thread from coming to my personal email. I clicked on the spot that tells me to click to unsuscribe (3 times) it didn't work.
Please Help!!!
Thank U
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I finally figured it out about 20 minutes ago Family. Thanks anyway :)
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Well first of all there are active and passive struggles..I believe that if an individual is a practicing homosexual in the church and it is known then they should not be allowed to be involved in any form of ministry...as it is now public knowledge and will cause comprimision on the church on a whole..for those who are "In the closet" well we will never know, however they also need to know that God loves them as an individual but hates the sin..if they are struggling and failing they should seek help and allow their conscience to guide them in taking a break from their minisrty until they are counselled and delivered.
God Bless
Rovel
Jamaica West Indies
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for those who are "In the closet" well we will never know, however they also need to know that God loves them as an individual but hates the sin..
Well for those in the closet...it may not be PUBLIC knowledge, but I know first-hand the Spirit can tell on a person. Someone may know, but not saying anything...they could be in prayer. There are many closeted saints...
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There are many closeted saints...
Huh?
Can you be a saint and have closeted sin Regardless of the closeted sin?
1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Saint is one who is sanctified.
sanc‧ti‧fied [sangk-tuh-fahyd] –adjective made holy; consecrated
IMHO
Peace
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Huh?
Can you be a saint and have closeted sin Regardless of the closeted sin?
1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Saint is one who is sanctified.
sanc‧ti‧fied [sangk-tuh-fahyd] –adjective made holy; consecrated
IMHO
Peace
we all have things that we keep to ourselfs we must be careful that we are still not living in sin but that we are asking God to save and deliever us from wateva were dealing wit
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we all have things that we keep to ourselfs we must be careful that we are still not living in sin but that we are asking God to save and deliever us from wateva were dealing wit
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 9:5
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
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we all have things that we keep to ourselfs we must be careful that we are still not living in sin but that we are asking God to save and deliever us from wateva were dealing wit
At first glance, looking at this response may make one say, "what?" But, in actuality, it makes sense. The Bible says, "all have sinned and fallen short of His glory" (my paraphrase) so since that IS the case, no matter the sin we ALL have sinned. Everyone of us.
The problem comes when we characterize which sin is worse. God doesn't do that.
Which leads me to this question. Are we evil or wicked when we sin? (Proverbs 24:1,2,8 )
Be blessed.
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At first glance, looking at this response may make one say, "what?" But, in actuality, it makes sense. The Bible says, "all have sinned and fallen short of His glory" (my paraphrase) so since that IS the case, no matter the sin we ALL have sinned. Everyone of us.
The problem comes when we characterize which sin is worse. God doesn't do that.
Which leads me to this question. Are we evil or wicked when we sin? (Proverbs 24:1,2,8 )
Be blessed.
I know that putting a grade on sins (which one is worse than another) is a hobby for some.
I don't go there.
I've sinned a truckload of sin in my life.
Thankfully for me and everyone else, light has come into the world so we no longer need to live in darkness.
Sure, darkness is all around us and even resides in our very own souls but Jesus himself said that we no longer "stay" in darkness.
He is in the light...we should be in the light...end of discussion, imho, regardless of what your sin du jour is. ;D
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Although God hates all sin he has some that he hate worse…. “Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost” being one….
Also see: Prov 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
By the way Saint – Sinner is and can never be the same. In fact they are polar opposites.
When reading Rom 3:23 could the words ‘have sinned’ be past tense denoting prior to salvation?
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"Do you not know thta your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? I f anyone defiles that temple, God will destroy him." Is what I will say on that. Because we belong to God, we know that no sin should dwell within our members and thta God is not pleased with those who do anything against His word. It is a part of sexual immorality and one thng that I do know is that anyone who is sexually immoral WILL NOT enter the kingdom of heaven. But I do not judge them, all I do is pray for them and continue to love them despite the things that they may do.
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A sin is a sin,no one sin is any better or worse :-*
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This is a really hard one and I frankly believe that only God has the answer. How many people go to other cities and commit this sin of homosexuality without ever being found out? How many are committing some sin in their thought process that we cannot see? How many people have had pre-marital sex and no baby came of the union which helped keep this particular sin under wraps, yet others committed the same sin of fornication and were openly "caught" in sin because of a pregnancy.
I thank God that this is one sin that I am not struggling with and Lord have mercy on others who are in the struggle and also Lord let them know that You are always there ready to Deliver! Praise God! Praise God!
To the lady who lost her sister to suicide I prayed to God when I read that post. I asked God to bless and keep you and give you peace.
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I think it would really be fair to lump all sexual sin with this hot debate because I believe homosexuality is only one of the many struggles of sexual perversion. This very notion is swept under a bigger rug than the homosexuality debate. For years we have accepted the playboy as a right of passage in the church world as well as the secular. God never accepted it but we have winked at the seriousness of sexual sin. OUR doctrines and denominations are more important than the teachings of spirtual and sexual purity. Our communities are overrun with sickness and disease because of our unwillingness to stand up for truth throughout the world. I empathize with someone who struggles with homosexuality because one kan never pinpoint how they were realeased into such a vile and degrading lifestyle. In my earlier posts I shared some radical views and respectfully appreciate your thoughts and opinions on the subject matter of Preaching and God's biblical order. It should be noted that part of my radical approach to ministry comes from great discussions as these. I've witnessed very few post in this thread that have went in depth on the this topic of sexual sin. Most people have said sin is sin or theres no one sin greater than the other. For the most part in general layman's terms that can be viewed as correct. However it is only one side of a distorted view of a spirtiual issue that our churches have not been honest about.
(Especially black churches.) WE have allowed unscrupulous leadership to lead us in a direction that not only promotes sin but endorses it to a degree. When we fail to preach the truth in its entirety then we have cosigned for the devils devices to destroy and steal from the people that we minister (serve) to. We haven't holistically dealt with the issue of sexual impurity in our church communities causing debates such as these. Sexual impurity runs rampant in our churches because we have leadership and flock who endorse or pacify God's mandate for holiness. Thats a tough pill to swallow but its true. Until we fess up to that point we will continue to reap corruption as Galatins tells us in chapter 6 verse 8. Our churches have become the den of thieves that jesus despised. We have given ourselves over to rhetoric and ideals that are worldly as well as devilish. People aren't empowered to live as God would have them live because we have become people's spirtual crutches and not the swift kick to the rear that we all need sometimes. We all know about the man who was at the pool for 38 years right. Let's honestly ask ourselves how long have we as a body of belivers been inoperative at the pool of sin? How long have we asked God for something that we already have been empowered to do. Don't confuse this notion of man being empowered with the notion of situations that arise that we can't handle and God's power intervenes to help us. I'm only saying that we have the blueprint on how to get free from this situation and we are going to Tarsus and not Ninevah.
furious
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1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 9:5
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
first of all.....most of your quotes were from JESUS (the example)......the only person who was found blamless...but still took on the sins of the world so weah might be cleansed.......since we are born in sin and wrapped in iniquity (spelling???) and since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD......we still sin cuz weah are in the flesh and our flesh will neva be saved.....weah strive for perfection but non is perfect but the man above......i look at it like this since weah are saved weah do not practice sin but that doesnt mean weah dont sin sum of cuz gossip dont do wat God tells us wen he tells us imean all kind of things.....lets remember to him that knows to do and does not do to HIM it is sin........so we are to alwayz be in a David state of mind (a mind of repentaince) cuz you neva want nething blockin you for the closeness wit God
At first glance, looking at this response may make one say, "what?" But, in actuality, it makes sense. The Bible says, "all have sinned and fallen short of His glory" (my paraphrase) so since that IS the case, no matter the sin we ALL have sinned. Everyone of us.
The problem comes when we characterize which sin is worse. God doesn't do that.
Which leads me to this question. Are we evil or wicked when we sin? (Proverbs 24:1,2,8 )
Be blessed.
i knew that would catch sumones eye but its the truth and i think once christians get a hold of that thats when revival can really start.....AND LAWD WEWAH NEED IT