LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: 4hisglory on March 26, 2006, 09:10:58 PM
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In your opinion, how much theory do you think all musicians need to know??
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In my opinion, I think that we as musicians should know as much theory as possible. You can never know too much because knowledge in music is unlimited, especially gospel music. There are a lot of genres that we can learn from and also get the theory behind them!!!
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I am currently learning the theory behind lots of different people and styles so that for example, if you want to play a Donnie McClurkin song, I will play it his way, and if I want to play a Hezekiah Walker song, I will play it his way. They sound very different, so knowing why they sound different will be helpful in playing them differently. I say learn all you can as well!
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In your opinion, how much theory do you think all musicians need to know??
As much as possible, cause it will save you from a night of TOTAL EMBARRASMENT!!! Bishop Cole
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I am not with yall
Here is my official answer followed by explanation
an]Theory is a means to an end not a means in itself and the theory has always followed the doing
so do first and analyze second
the theory should always be secondary to the pursuit of excellent technique facility and accuracy on your instrument
then you can apply the theory in creative ways[/b].
d only because I know more theory then most but have relied on that theory at the expense of really shedding on the physical aspects of playing so I have learned how to read a lead shieet I know how to do poyrhythyms I can analyze any chord progression and learn to duplicate it in other situations and yes i can teach well
and impart the information
but you cannot learn theory at the expesnse of real practice and tackling the mundae aspects of taking your chords around the cycle cromatically step wise and in major and minor thirds
and getting them there with a quickness like 100 beats per minute each per qaurter note
trhat is my grind right now
because I have seen people who practice this way and they run circles around some of the strongest theory cats I know
even though these theory people (masters of musc bachelors of music0
CAN PLAY well I have seen the people who have really taken the time to learn the music from a heart and ear concept not a brain thing
I play ok some say well I can come up with some good stuff but the best sturff is the stuff I learn by ear not by brain
So here is my official answer
Theory is a means to an end not a means in itself and the theory has always followed the doing
so do first and analyze second
the theory should always be secondary to the pursuit of excellent technique facility and accuracy on your instrument
then you can apply the theory in creative ways.
when you learn theory in school it is predicated by hours of time spent on developing the physical attributes nessesary to apply the concept
so if you are not going to school and you are told to learn theory like it is going to make you special
i dont think we should put this idea out there
Katrina
Nate mcnair
melvin crispel
Butch heyward
I dont want to put katrinas name on blast so I wont put her last name out there
but she got signed to a major label recently and you hear her work on the radiio as we speak
she used to earn 900 per sunday at her church
and new very little theory but she could apply all the concepts you could theorize and then do stuff that the theory books have not learned yet
The old piano players and musicians learned from listening
I am advocating training this first and theory later because you will be far more creative
now on the other side for people like me who didnt have access to a teacher theory was a way i was able to survive as a minister of music who only knew two songs when I got my first church position.
But i honestly feel if i used my ear first i would be further along
theory is broken into too many components to rely on it to give you everything you need
lets look at a list of theory concepts
basic harmony
cadences minor and major
chords scales modes appegios
improvisation
rhythym
eartraining****
advanced improvisation counter point playing outside the key etc
technique
advanced harmony
sight reading
modality
modes in harmonic movement
linear harmony
2,3,4 part harmony
Out of all these things if you had the basic harmony learned
and focused on eartraining
and technique and learned your repoirtore from records
I believe you would be further along then someone else who tackled everything and didnt focus on technique
technique takes hours to develop and it requires a lot of work and patience
all that other stuff cant replace it
and remember in any college music course the eartrainig moves alongside the theroy classes so even they realize how important eartrainig is
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In your opinion, how much theory do you think all musicians need to know??
In my opinion, every musician should know the following:
1. All your notes
2. All major and minor scales, and maybe the blues scale in every key
3. All your basic chords in every key
Of course, stuff like scale degrees, finger numbers, progressions etc. will all be encompassed or stem from those, but those are the big 3 in my opinion. You don't have to know a whole lot of theory to play well, it is just good to have an intelligent way of expressing to others what you are doing, not just "play this right here, then run this right here...." Unh Unh, not professional at all!!!
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Thanks T-block that was what I was tryingto say
that knowing those things will help you to digest any other thing you may play and you can understand when people are communicating to you
And then you can learn as you go more advanced concepts
but dont sacrifice shedding for theory like i did
The theory must go hand in hand with the practice
now I am playing catch up
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now I am playing catch up
Me too man. I be hearing cats do some absolutely amazing stuff, and I'm like "Whoa, where did u learn that? I need to get on my grind for real!" But then again, you can look at it like this too, even though u feel like u playing catch up, you are way more advanced than a lot of people. And it's those people who are also playing catch up to you.
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stop it already pick a side
yin or yang
black or white
right or wrong
theory or ear
LOL
You alright man...
for real hopefully one day we willcross paths
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You too funny D, I look forward to that day if our paths cross.
stop it already pick a side
LOL!!!! I can't help it, I'm stuck in the middle!!!
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im thinking for a horn player its good to know theroy, but you need a very good ear...cm7 is still cm7 anyway you look at it but for horn players you need to be able to play different styles over any chord changes...example..polka,jazz, blues, gospel ,rock,,ect ect know your music and styles and you will be playing with the angels
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I did a post about a guy I met in a guitar center. He said he was gifted to play. I told him I'm beginning and I'm practicing my scales, progressions, etc. When I mentioned a "7-3-6-2-5-1" he said: "I don't even know what that is"
:D :D :D
And homeboy was SICK!!! I'd mention a song off the top of my head, and tell him what key to play it in and he'd play it INSTANTLY. Then he'd say: "Or I could play it like this" then he'd play it totally different and it sounded TIGHT.
I said all that to say this.......Imagine how good he'd be if he knew the theory behind what he was playing? :)
Don't kill yourself with theory. The short answer to the question in this thread is:
Learn enough that you can know the What, When, and Why aspects of playing
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Diverse, I see you are not a strong believer in theory even though you know it. I just graduated with a music degree from college three months ago, and you know what? You are right, we did theory and we did ear training, but it was ALL from the angle of Classical music. You know why? The college professors say things like gospel music is not real music because it is just improv. But you know what else? They have the luxury of thinking like this and teaching like this because the people that are best at gospel music, take no pride or concern about the music as a whole. They take what they can for themselves and let others get in where they can. Classical music is about prepetuation of an musical art form. Gospel music right now is about survival of the fittest. Sure, I can play, but what about when I am gone? What about those that come after me? What about those that are coming up with me? If we call ourselves musicians, then we should take the time and effort to master ALL areas of musicianship. That includes the ear,(perceiving) the hands,(practicing) and the theory(knowing and understanding). I sat in theory classes frustrated that they would not discuss theoretical concepts as they refer to gospel music(or any other kind of music for that matter) and it never happened. Probably never will as long as The best musicians in gospel want to keep the best kept secret to themselves. You can go anywhere and learn classical, because teachers everywhere learned its theory and it performance practices. Well people are fighting for gospel teachers because no one has set the standard, and pretty much refuse to because a lot of them can't explain it themselves. College Academia laughs at our type of music and frankly it is sad to see us turn a deaf ear towards such abuse. Jazz IS taught in colleges and has theory, and guess what? They are praised for their creative outputs of music. They are creative because they learned how to be. Gospel is no different, and it has a theory and it is even more creative than Jazz!!! Since no one else is taking the burden upon themselves to better all gospel musicians, and not just themselves, then I am doing by writing a book on gospel music theory. I started it about 6 months ago. It is not yet finished, because it is a big subject, and since I am pretty much doing it by myself. Theory is about making music history come alive. Aside from that, it really does make you a better player. When I get a chance to post a clip, I will do so, because I think hearing me play will allow you to understand I am not just a beginner out here just talking about theory, I play it. It works and I want all others to have the benefit of sound instruction at their disposal to be as creative as they want.
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Diverse, I see you are not a strong believer in theory even though you know it. I just graduated with a music degree from college three months ago, and you know what? You are right, we did theory and we did ear training, but it was ALL from the angle of Classical music. You know why? The college professors say things like gospel music is not real music because it is just improv. But you know what else? They have the luxury of thinking like this and teaching like this because the people that are best at gospel music, take no pride or concern about the music as a whole. They take what they can for themselves and let others get in where they can. Classical music is about prepetuation of an musical art form. Gospel music right now is about survival of the fittest. Sure, I can play, but what about when I am gone? What about those that come after me? What about those that are coming up with me? If we call ourselves musicians, then we should take the time and effort to master ALL areas of musicianship. That includes the ear,(perceiving) the hands,(practicing) and the theory(knowing and understanding). I sat in theory classes frustrated that they would not discuss theoretical concepts as they refer to gospel music(or any other kind of music for that matter) and it never happened. Probably never will as long as The best musicians in gospel want to keep the best kept secret to themselves. You can go anywhere and learn classical, because teachers everywhere learned its theory and it performance practices. Well people are fighting for gospel teachers because no one has set the standard, and pretty much refuse to because a lot of them can't explain it themselves. College Academia laughs at our type of music and frankly it is sad to see us turn a deaf ear towards such abuse. Jazz IS taught in colleges and has theory, and guess what? They are praised for their creative outputs of music. They are creative because they learned how to be. Gospel is no different, and it has a theory and it is even more creative than Jazz!!! Since no one else is taking the burden upon themselves to better all gospel musicians, and not just themselves, then I am doing by writing a book on gospel music theory. I started it about 6 months ago. It is not yet finished, because it is a big subject, and since I am pretty much doing it by myself. Theory is about making music history come alive. Aside from that, it really does make you a better player. When I get a chance to post a clip, I will do so, because I think hearing me play will allow you to understand I am not just a beginner out here just talking about theory, I play it. It works and I want all others to have the benefit of sound instruction at their disposal to be as creative as they want.
May God bless the work of your hands as you endeavor to reach and teach His people. I'm believing the Lord right now for an increase in your harvest as you sow into the hearts and minds of future gospel musicians and artists.
It is in the mighty, matchless name of Jesus Christ that I pray and say, Amen.
I just wanted to pray for you, sister because it seems that you have found your purpose, and that's a blessing.
In addition while I can see both sides of this issue, I can say that for me, the increasing of my theoretical knowledge has helped me increase my ear. Someone posted in a thread a website that can help with ear training, and I can say that because of my knowledge of theory, I am better at knowing the chords that this ear training website is playing. As a matter of fact, my score has imporved dramatically in the last couple of days.
I think there can be a balance.
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I didn't say to just study theory. I said that it is good to know so that you can know what people did and you can explain it to someone else!!! It is also good to know for yourself. Again some people think that they know theory and they really don't!!! Also, that is why people are frustrated. I look at some of the responses people have given to other people about theory and some of these new things that people come up with and it doesn't make sense!!! They can't even back up what they said and they end up contradicting theirself later in the post!!! I don't even respond to it. Also, I said that it is good to know both, not just one or the other. What if you played for a church that goes based off of reading music and they wanted you to arrange something for the choir or whomever, you would need to know your theory!!! I know folks who can play really well and they know their theory!!! You can't rely on your ear for everything!!! Plus, people respect you more when you know what you are talking about. If you think that I just sit and analyze chords all day, then you are wrong. I learn the phat chords and runs that people use and I learn why it makes sense so that I can show others!!! Plus, I don't have time to press the rewind button, especially if I have one day to learn it. If there are new chords and runs I learn them. I try to learn as many chords and genres as possible!! I am also creative!!! I learn other instances where to put chords and runs!! You can sit and try to figure out until 6 the next morning on how to play a song!! While others, who know theory, it would take less time because they know what's going to happen next.
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I didnt even see that post from jt3n1 thank you jonathon for potsing that again
I was moved by what you wrote JT
I agree with you on that side of the fence i hadnt really considered the proliferation of Gospel Because I took for granted that God would make sure gospel music stayed cutting edge like it always has
but I empthize with what you are saying we do not communicate a real school of knowledge.
that encourage the perpetuation of.
and what you are saying is noble indeed.
and every point that is made is relevant absoultely
I wouldnt have it any other way.
My position was based not on what i felt was untrue about what was written by miss church music
but moreover by what was in what she wrote that concerned me
I got mislead to believe ( by my own belief no one elses ) that if I master theory i would be able to understand what everybody was doing in this gospel thing we do
And I am at a point now that I can under stand it but my technique is so poor I cnnot execute the things I am hearing so I find myself back to square one shedding my chords around the cycle of 5ths
I just didnt want anyone to fall into that trap
just to keep it in balance
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Hey thanks Sjonanthan for your prayers!! They are much needed!!! Diverse, I think we are trying to achieve the same goal, but we are trying to get there in two different ways!! I just want everybody to get it!!
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I am not understanding diverse379 what you are saying about me. Plus what did I say that offended you? I was not trying to offend by all means. If I did then I am sorry!! I am just saying that it is good to know both!! By the way my name is clcmusicchic :)
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no no miss churchmusic you did not offend me at all
no apologies necsessary We are all sharing
when I read your post the first time I guess I didnt want someone to read it and get the idea that if they just learn some theory they can go out and becaome players
I know that is not your intention and my concern was probably unwarranted
I know that people will take a statement and run with it. So I wanted to be sure that anybody reading this post would know that regardless of what they know or dont know that practice practice practice is word of the day every day for a musician
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Ok...here is the real deal.
Music reading is important, but being able to sight read on the spot is not unless u are a session musician
KNOW CHORDS AND CHORD SYMBOLS- if you know this then it makes everything easier. You can go throw a peice of music and pick out chords and figure out what u'll play over them. This also allows for some of your on creativity
RHYTHMS- if your playing with a band then this is a big one, in my short 17 years of life this is the biggest problem i've noticed with players. They have no rhythmic varity.
But really, unless youre one of those geniouses who was blessed with being able to play by ear, THE MORE YOU KNOW THE BETTER
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there is a lot to be said for this last statement
because it is a known fact that some people have perfect pitch and those that do tend to be better musicians
those that dont have to compensate utilize something else to even out the playing field.
So I will not argue with that at all
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I am with Sis jt3n.
As a people, we have fallen too long for this lie "You don't have to know. It will be alright, just get up there and do it."
We have fallen for that lie over and over, not just with music but with the Word.
The Bible clearly says "My people perish for lack of knowledge."
As Sis Jt3n clearly stated, some of the best gospel music and gospel music secrets die with the musicians, because they either refused to share it or didn't know how to explain what they were doing. So then the next generation comes along and has to start from square one . . . and it is all SO UNNECESSARY, if only we would learn . . . .
This is my response to people who say it is not necessary to learn how to read music, theory, etc.
You may be able to play anything you hear. That's great. But not being able to read music is like being able to talk and repeat anything you hear, but you can't read a book or a newspaper. You are only limited to the input your recieve around you, and you will never be able to stretch out and be your own musician. When you can read books, you can learn from anyone you choose. When you can read music, you can learn from anyone you choose.
Think about it.
Be Blessed ;D
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I think that their should be a balance between both. Theory is very important but I have to be honest; Whenever I have to read sheet music, I feel so trapped. I remember taking classes in undergrad and just feeling like I could not express myself musically. This is probably the man reason why I like jazz so much because jazz has lots of improv. But don't get me wrong. Everyone should know as much theory as they can. I find it very useful in communicating with other musicians.
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be aware that reading music is a skill in istself but it is not necessarily the type of theory we are talking about.
sight reading is a component of theory but in order to sight read you dont need to know anymore then the location of the notes on the staff and the board
you dont need to know a c hord from a g chord a minor from a major as long as you can play what you see
if you can read a lead sheet with chord symbols you are now using more theory because you are doing chord construction
if you reharmonize a lead sheet you are using even more theory because you are now making chord substirutions etc
if you improvise a new melody over those chord changes you are using a combination of theory and ear or just ear or just theory.
If you develop a new set of chord changes over a melody you are composing and could and probably are using both ear and some theory.
The thing is when I was in school for music my teachers could not do what we do in the gospel music field.
the on the spot improv
and I have seen some monster jazz cats play second rate changes over gospel songs
its a matter of taste cliches and choices
So When I speak about using your ear I guess what i am saying is that no theory will dimosnstrate or lead you to the cutting edge stuff people like melvin or hez or
smokie
let me change that you would have to dig very very deep to find what they are doing
This is what I have done
I learned how to construct all types of chords by name and number
I learned what scales went with wht chords I learned the various methiods of harmonization and
I learned rhythmic and poly rhythmic theory
I practriced my basic progressions and then
I began to get sheet music song books and I worked my changes and when I did not like how they sounded I used the voicing from the book
But in order to get that struff into my playing you have to transpose it and willfully try to apply it in other contexts
I have John Novellos contemporary keyboardist and without a doubt it is packed with information probably more then I would ever use.
Barry harris teaches a totally unique method of theory
but Isnt what is important ther peerformance?
I have read many of you speak about the proliferation of gospel and techniques dying with the musicians
But Have any of you thought that that was their anointing that God gave them for his purpose
and that he has different annointings for each of us that seek
There is much of what I do on sunday that goes beyond anything theoretical
sometimes it is the simplest of things that will bring people to their feet in worship and prase
Dont get me wrong learn what you can and that includes using your ear too
because a lot of what we do is ear on sunday mornings
Practice doing what you will be doing the way you will be doing it
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WOW! Great dicussion. I think that you should learn as much as possible about anything you do, and do as much of whatever you trying to improve on as possible, whether it's music or tiddly-winks. The more you know the better off you are and the more you do something the easier it becomes. So, theory, eartraining, performance, practicing, devotion, all of those things are needed to make you better. Someoine mentioned balance. This probably is most important. If you concentrate on eartraing and don't ever try to imitate what you've heard, what good was the eartraing? And if you know alot of theory but have no creativity, your playing may not have any 'iife' and may become very predictible and uninspiring. Then again it's all THEORY and not LAW. There really is no right or wrong.
Also, to comment on jt3n1's college experience. I also went through similar experiences with professors not giving gospel music or the artist who create/perform it the credit it/they deserve. These people are just ignorant. The same theory, for the most part, that J. S. Bach used to write and governed his tonal centers is the same theory we use today. Also, it is a well known fact that Bach was one of the greatest improvisors of his time and all great MUSICIANS prior to and since then must be able to improvise. Figured bass sound familiar?
Anyway, back to the original question, "How much theory?" In my opinion, you can never have enough. But that goes for anything else that could possibly help you imrove your craft.
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Figured bass sound familiar?
Oh yes, that is very familiar to me. That's all we did in college theory.
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Oh yes, that is very familiar to me. That's all we did in college theory.
YES INDEED YES!!!! Bishop Cole
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all our lives we're told to color within the lines..
who drew the lines in the first place?
knowledge in music is like knowledge in the WORD.. you can never say you know all there is to know..
get what you can to get going and the God do the rest, use your talents God has given you to glorify HIM.. then let God help you in knowledge both in prayer for understanding HIS WORD and also to build upon the gifts HE has given you..
rob
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all our lives we're told to color within the lines..
who drew the lines in the first place?
knowledge in music is like knowledge in the WORD.. you can never say you know all there is to know..
get what you can to get going and the God do the rest, use your talents God has given you to glorify HIM.. then let God help you in knowledge both in prayer for understanding HIS WORD and also to build upon the gifts HE has given you..
rob
???
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I fell Dtuned on what He is saying it seems that nobody is leaving any room for GOd to just be God And do what he wants with you and your playing which is really his because it is for his glory
It seems that the more you learn the less you will depend on him and the harder it will be for him to operate through you I will be honest some of my best playing happened when I had no idea what I was playing or doing
stuff just came out
Thee is a verse in the Bible that
says with the Holy spirit you needeth no teacher
In other words the Holy spirit is the best teacher
If you ask Butch Heyward he will tell you the same thing
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says with the Holy spirit you needeth no teacher
Where does it say this in the Bible?
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I believe it is John 2:27
also see John 14:26 and luke 12:11
but john 2:27 is really what I think I was referring to
I didnt actually quote it correctily but the intent is the same
if the holy spirit abide in you you have no need for any teacher
when it comes to music ministry I believe this applies whole heartedly
Why do I still seek teachers then?
because I am still afflicted with a spirit of unbelief
my belief has not yet over come my unbelief
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I believe it is John 2:27
also see John 14:26 and luke 12:11
but john 2:27 is really what I think I was referring to
I didnt actually quote it correctily but the intent is the same
if the holy spirit abide in you you have no need for any teacher
when it comes to music ministry I believe this applies whole heartedly
Why do I still seek teachers then?
because I am still afflicted with a spirit of unbelief
my belief has not yet over come my unbelief
But, the Holy Spirit will not only teach me all things, but remind me of the things that were said to me. How else could they have been said to me but by a teacher (or in the Biblical sense, THE Teacher, which is Jesus Christ).
So, I still maintain that we all need a teacher of some kind to guide and direct us AND the Holy Spirit will bring out of us what He (God) has put in us.
Anyway......
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I shoud have never paraphrased
here is the scripture
the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things,
and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you,
you shall abide in him.
I John
Na mean?
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Well I'll tell you what, the sweetest cat that I ever heard play did not know a lick of theory. His ear was remarkable and his chord structure was crazy. I NEEDED theory just to be able to keep up with him.
But I agree with Diverse ( to a degree). You definitely have to put in your time on your instrument. The more time you put in the more you will discover, and the more you will be able to do. I believe in theory because it gives you an effective means to communicate what you do and allows you to be able to repeat it over and over again.
But if you lknow all the chord symbols but can't duplicate them "in time" then what is it worth. if you have all the videos and the books but you don't sit over that board and play those licks ( over and over and over and over and over) untill they become 2nd nature, then you just have a nice educational library.
I don't knock theory because it is what allows me to take a concept and apply it immediately, but believe you me, if I didn't have the dexterity and coordination to be able to hit those notes "in time" then what good would knowing the concept be.
I guess it boils down to you have to build upon a foundation, many people want to sound phat, but they have trouble playing 3 note triads and a bass line. You got to be able to to master the triads before moving to the polychords.
And the way you master the basics is practice practice practice.
I look at some of the chords I play, then I go and look at a piece of music by Richard Smallwood ( Holy thou art God). Man most of the stuff he is playing in the song is 2 note intervals. And Richard smallwood is a beast on the keys. I guess as you get better the beauty of simplicity really comes to life.
enough rambling
jlewis
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Very well said Jlewis I think if you look at all the comments on this thread you will notice that there is truth in what everyone said
I believe it boils down to an individual thing
people like Ben Tankard who never took a lesson just sat down and worshipped God on the piano now he is a recording artist literally
others need to learn theory in order to keep up
some learn theory to enhance what they already know
some people learned theory and it boxes them in
some play be ear and are beasts and no theory cat can touch them
some play by ear and the suck
Some trust in the Holy spirit and they play annointed like Butch Heyward or Charles minor
some trust in themselves and they sound annointed too
Notice I said sound
some theory cats are annointed
some ear only cats are annointed
some combination cats are annointed
some are just annoying
So what does it boil down to.
I believe if you are doing this For God First pray for annointing you pray for his Holy spirit
then you need to as others have said should familiarize yourself with the basics of music but at the same time you need to watch how you grow
If you are someone who needs to know the how and the why if you are a visual learner or auditory or kinesthetic
all of this makes a difference
there is no one set answer for everyone theory always came after the playing the playing came first then people try to figure out how they did it
Either you need to break it down or you have big ears and you can hear every thing
I studied with Melvin and he has perfect pitch he can play classical music like he went to Juliard why
big ears annointing both?
Now if you were not blessed with this gift theory and proper instruction can help you get to where melvin is and others like him
but if you are also gifted but not very studious then theory can bog you down
if you are very inquisitve then theory can set you free
but nobody can sit here and say yay or nay
I wil stand that what ever you do keep a balance
and that theory will never take the place of really learning your instrument
and that if the holy spirit Abides in you then you need no teacher
All in all no two people are the same
and no one way is going to be the right path for everybody
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I did a post about a guy I met in a guitar center. He said he was gifted to play. I told him I'm beginning and I'm practicing my scales, progressions, etc. When I mentioned a "7-3-6-2-5-1" he said: "I don't even know what that is"
:D :D :D
And homeboy was SICK!!! I'd mention a song off the top of my head, and tell him what key to play it in and he'd play it INSTANTLY. Then he'd say: "Or I could play it like this" then he'd play it totally different and it sounded TIGHT.
I said all that to say this.......Imagine how good he'd be if he knew the theory behind what he was playing? :)
Don't kill yourself with theory. The short answer to the question in this thread is:
Learn enough that you can know the What, When, and Why aspects of playing
I always like bringing up "controversial" issues..not for the sake of controversy, but for the sake of awareness...
I find this to be the best answer. :)
It helps a great deal to know the most basic theory..It saves time to say the least & it gives one the power to choose what they explore with.
With the necessary theory (unless if you are really really gifted with a great ear), you will achieve so much more sooner.
This is clearly evidenced by the contrast we see in the greats of yesteryear & today:
It took yesteryear's greats many many years to get to the level of greats..Compare that to today's minstrels & you can see the decrease in the time it has taken them to reach that "great" status--particularly those who have been exposed to some type of music training (in all genres of music).
On a personal note..I also started off without any musical knowledge. I figured out a number of songs, but I was very restricted because I was in the dark.
Now equipped with my knowledge, I can pretty much go to the board with innumerable executable ideas.
Ear + brain = fantastic synergy.
ps:
*just a thought*
It is understandable for some1 without theory to desist learning to play in all keys..because it's like they are lost in a foreign maze, with only their ear as the light...it will take time before they see the patterns.
But it is laziness for some1 with adequate theory to resist that opportunity because they have been given a map + they have the light..
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I have to say that one should learn as much theory as possible. You should also train your ear, to play by ear. The two go hand in hand. I learned a lot of things by listening, but I understood what I heard from the theory that I have learned. Theory opens a lot of secret doors, that people may not tell you about. I'll give you an example. The Lord has allowed me give a music workshop at my church. It is the first time for this body. I am teaching all of our musicians and our choirs some basic theory. Even though, I am not a drummer, nor do I play the clarinet; the theory for the most part is the same across the board (As far as notation, timing, etc). Now I would have never been able to do such a thing, if I just played by ear. The theory that I have learned, has allowed me to understand other areas of the art. I say learn as much theory as possible, because it is the foundation of the music. As long as you have good foundation, your creativity can be endless.
Now I must say, I heard some cats play and I wonder how much theory they have learned. Simply, because the run that this dude just played, wasn't in the books that taught me. I just credited to the fact that he has a creative mind, if he didn't learn from a book.
I leave you with this. To me, it is like building a house. As long as you know how to lay the foundation, you can build any house you want. A lot people want to build a nice stylish house, but never learn how to lay down the foundation.
God Bless.
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I have to say that one should learn as much theory as possible. You should also train your ear, to play by ear. The two go hand in hand. I learned a lot of things by listening, but I understood what I heard from the theory that I have learned. Theory opens a lot of secret doors, that people may not tell you about. I'll give you an example. The Lord has allowed me give a music workshop at my church. It is the first time for this body. I am teaching all of our musicians and our choirs some basic theory. Even though, I am not a drummer, nor do I play the clarinet; the theory for the most part is the same across the board (As far as notation, timing, etc). Now I would have never been able to do such a thing, if I just played by ear. The theory that I have learned, has allowed me to understand other areas of the art. I say learn as much theory as possible, because it is the foundation of the music. As long as you have good foundation, your creativity can be endless.
Now I must say, I heard some cats play and I wonder how much theory they have learned. Simply, because the run that this dude just played, wasn't in the books that taught me. I just credited to the fact that he has a creative mind, if he didn't learn from a book.
I leave you with this. To me, it is like building a house. As long as you know how to lay the foundation, you can build any house you want. A lot people want to build a nice stylish house, but never learn how to lay down the foundation.
God Bless.
Well said Doc 8)
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I have to say that one should learn as much theory as possible. You should also train your ear, to play by ear. The two go hand in hand. I learned a lot of things by listening, but I understood what I heard from the theory that I have learned. Theory opens a lot of secret doors, that people may not tell you about. I'll give you an example. The Lord has allowed me give a music workshop at my church. It is the first time for this body. I am teaching all of our musicians and our choirs some basic theory. Even though, I am not a drummer, nor do I play the clarinet; the theory for the most part is the same across the board (As far as notation, timing, etc). Now I would have never been able to do such a thing, if I just played by ear. The theory that I have learned, has allowed me to understand other areas of the art. I say learn as much theory as possible, because it is the foundation of the music. As long as you have good foundation, your creativity can be endless.
Now I must say, I heard some cats play and I wonder how much theory they have learned. Simply, because the run that this dude just played, wasn't in the books that taught me. I just credited to the fact that he has a creative mind, if he didn't learn from a book.
I leave you with this. To me, it is like building a house. As long as you know how to lay the foundation, you can build any house you want. A lot people want to build a nice stylish house, but never learn how to lay down the foundation.
God Bless.
This is absolutely true. Theory WILL open up doors for you.
For instance, when i hear a chord progression, i can already pick up what chords to use and how to voice them based on the theory i know. I don't know how cats who have no theory do it. How do you hear a dom 9 chord (or any other chord for that matter) and know how to form it when you have no theory. ?/?
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I don't know how cats who have no theory do it. How do you hear a dom 9 chord (or any other chord for that matter) and know how to form it when you have no theory. ?/?
Everybody is different. Some guys have amazing ears and they dont theory in order to play things.
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Everybody is different. Some guys have amazing ears and they dont theory in order to play things.
Yeah i agree that some people have amazing ears. However these are few and far between. The average musician has average ears.
My point is, without much theory it will be THAT much harder for the average musician to pick things up. Forget basic chords like C maj, say you are in a band setting and someone calls for you to play a C7 #9 #5, if you did not know theory how would you eve begin to know how to form that kind of chord? Even if you do play strictly by ear, you NEED to know theory, especially if you are just starting out. If you hear a 1-4-5 progression over the radio and wanted to play it, you need to know where the chords are in the key the song is in.
I have seen that a lot of musicians just memorize scales and chord voicings without knowing what they are doing. While it may work well for a season, you will eventually hit a brick wall. The musician who knows his theory can pick stuff up THAT much quicker.
Theory gets you where you want to go much more quickly than strict ear playing.
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That works for you. not everybody. Like you said, these are above average musicians. There are many many above average musicians out there.
NOT EVERYBODY NEEDS THEORY
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That works for you. not everybody. Like you said, these are above average musicians. There are many many above average musicians out there.
NOT EVERYBODY NEEDS THEORY
Go ask them, they will tell you that they had to learn theory at some point in time. I have not yet met a good musician who did not acknowledge that he or she had to learn theory at some point to understand what was going on. They may not be good at explaining it, but they know it.
My whole point is this:
Theory gets you where you want to go much more quickly than strict ear playing.
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Theory gets you where you want to go much more quickly than strict ear playing.
you. not everybody.
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you. not everybody.
Yes it definitely helps me, and i think it would help more people if they focused on it also.
I suppose i should have put "IMO".
:)
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The simple fact of the matter is, there are no absolutes. It just comes down to how one wants to present themselves as a musician.
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The simple fact of the matter is, there are no absolutes. It just comes down to how one wants to present themselves as a musician.
Relativist Heathen!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
Fie upon ye!!!!!!!! >:( >:(
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Relativist Heathen!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
Fie upon ye!!!!!!!! >:( >:(
hehehe..almost made me start a new thread..but last thing we need is blood in the house :D
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Relativist Heathen!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
Fie upon ye!!!!!!!! >:( >:(
*yawn* Yea, yea...fire. Got it. ::)
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you all know my opinion on this one
it really hasnt changed
I think you learn some theory and apply it like crazy
developing that ear
then go and learn some more theory
and go and develop that ear
i dont care whether you read
or play by theory
every one plays by ear
how else will you know if what you did sounds good
or if your reading if you played a wrong note
your ear tells you
so the ear is as important to a musician as anything else
so please find some balance in your lives
get all you can
but while you do
develop that ear
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you all know my opinion on this one
it really hasnt changed
I think you learn some theory and apply it like crazy
developing that ear
then go and learn some more theory
and go and develop that ear
i dont care whether you read
or play by theory
every one plays by ear
how else will you know if what you did sounds good
or if your reading if you played a wrong note
your ear tells you
so the ear is as important to a musician as anything else
so please find some balance in your lives
get all you can
but while you do
develop that ear
gotcha! :)
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Ok, some1 plz lock this thread ;D
Point is that theory accelerates one's learning process & sets the platform for effective communication between musicians in a more than 1 man setup.
It also empowers one with a plethora of choice of combos of routes to take in their music before one can even sit before the board/ piano to play the stuff 8)
Biggest challenge is to ensure that the theory consumed IS actually applied..otherwise it's as good as dead.
fullstop. :-X
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Ok, some1 plz lock this thread ;D
Now, why would I want to do that? LOL. :D
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Some people were presented with theory when they first started. Others, were not.
Some people pretty early on somehow felt the need to START learning some theory. Others, it never even occurred to them - listening to their favorite recordings was working just fine.
Music is "aural", and it's about "sound". Therefore, you obviously MUST use your hearing capacity. But, it seems that, no matter what level you're at (beginner or advanced), the inclusion of "some theory knowlege", will only take you UPWARDS.
So, the thrust of your playing will reside with:
1) your desire or excitement to play
2) your natural ear level
3) your amount of playing (practice, performing)
4) your creative mind (ala George Benson, Victor Wooten, Stanley Jordan, Theolonius Monk, John Coltrane, etc..)
Therefore, the role that "Theory" plays is - it will take those four factors and "NOURISH & ENHANCE" them, moving your musical journey along MUCH faster!
Keep in mind, there are some musicians with no theory knowledge, who's first few years start off pretty nicely, but 5, 10, 15 years later, they remain at the same level, because their ears ran out, and they have no more OPTIONS of how to improve.
"Theory can take over, when Eary runs dry". Suddenly, theory gives new life to your ears again! Theory will help prevent you from "getting stuck" by opening new doors for, and giving your ears something else to do, helping your ear to get stronger. And the cycle continues with both propelling each other ahead.
"Eary & Theory"...The Dynamic Duo 8)
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Some people were presented with theory when they first started. Others, were not.
Some people pretty early on somehow felt the need to START learning some theory. Others, it never even occurred to them - listening to their favorite recordings was working just fine.
Music is "aural", and it's about "sound". Therefore, you obviously MUST use your hearing capacity. But, it seems that, no matter what level you're at (beginner or advanced), the inclusion of "some theory knowlege", will only take you UPWARDS.
So, the thrust of your playing will reside with:
1) your desire or excitement to play
2) your natural ear level
3) your amount of playing (practice, performing)
4) your creative mind (ala George Benson, Victor Wooten, Stanley Jordan, Theolonius Monk, John Coltrane, etc..)
Therefore, the role that "Theory" plays is - it will take those four factors and "NOURISH & ENHANCE" them, moving your musical journey along MUCH faster!
Keep in mind, there are some musicians with no theory knowledge, who's first few years start off pretty nicely, but 5, 10, 15 years later, they remain at the same level, because their ears ran out, and they have no more OPTIONS of how to improve.
"Theory can take over, when Eary runs dry". Suddenly, theory gives new life to your ears again! Theory will help prevent you from "getting stuck" by opening new doors for, and giving your ears something else to do, helping your ear to get stronger. And the cycle continues with both propelling each other ahead.
"Eary & Theory"...The Dynamic Duo 8)
I love this
this is a great story to tell children
seriously though
this is a perfect way of explaining the co dependent or mutually beneficial blending of these two approaches
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In my opinion, every musician should know the following:
1. All your notes
2. All major and minor scales, and maybe the blues scale in every key
3. All your basic chords in every key
Of course, stuff like scale degrees, finger numbers, progressions etc. will all be encompassed or stem from those, but those are the big 3 in my opinion. You don't have to know a whole lot of theory to play well, it is just good to have an intelligent way of expressing to others what you are doing, not just "play this right here, then run this right here...." Unh Unh, not professional at all!!!
Co-SIGN!!!
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I love this
this is a great story to tell children
seriously though
this is a perfect way of explaining the co dependent or mutually beneficial blending of these two approaches
& that's a RAPP!!!!
Very well said C$$ 8)
I should print this out & shove it at anyone who tells me they don't need theory. ;D
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I love this.
This is a great story to tell children.
Seriously though, this is a perfect way of explaining the "co-dependent or mutually beneficial" blending of these two approaches.
& that's a RAPP!!!!
Very well said C$$ 8)
I should print this out & shove it at anyone who tells me they don't need theory. ;D
'Preciate it brothas!
And Great Mus, go ahead, print and shove away! lol....Because i would NEVER charge you a $1000! NEVER i say!!
ONLY $996.89 cents! as a Discount!...because i'm such a Giving person!
8)
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....Because i would NEVER charge you a $1000! NEVER i say!!
ONLY $996.89 cents! as a Discount!...because i'm such a Giving person!
8)
hehehe :D
the power of the mind...hhhm..what bout the other $3.11?..hehehe
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hehehe :D
the power of the mind...hhhm..what bout the other $3.11?..hehehe
That's your BONUS DISCOUNT! :D :D
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That's your BONUS DISCOUNT! :D :D
Thanks man...but no thanks :P, I don't need candy as a bonus after partying with 1 grand!! ::) :D
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Thanks man...but no thanks :P, I don't need candy as a bonus after partying with 1 grand!! ::) :D
Mus, ohh Great One! You better go back and re-read the origins of that "grand". That's coming from you to ME! :D :D :D
With the discount of course! lol
8)
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Mus, ohh Great One! You better go back and re-read the origins of that "grand". That's coming from you to ME! :D :D :D
With the discount of course! lol
8)
1 word man:
w-i-c-k-e-d-!
:P :D
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I do not want to offend anyone and I say that because this subject is touchy and what I am about to say is a little pointy. I like to help people. You can do so only by communicating. This communication needs a language. The language in music is theory. I was asked to help someone with a jazz question. They gave me a progression using the number system you use here... I am at a disadvantage because it is not a standard that I am familiar with. The reason why I push theory is because it is like the saddle on a race horse. You do not need it persae, but it sure does make the ride a lot smoother and allows another rider to ride that horse too.
When I talk music with someone, I work with visual examples (notation) so they can take it home and practice as well as aural examples. If you train only one side of your skill set, you are only half as good as you could be. Here is a little story:
I went to college after touring around the US with my saxophone for about 10+ years. I never took a lesson but was naturally gifted. I practiced 4 to 6 hours a day and did played with some pretty good groups. I decided to settle down and go to college. I went to two auditions. The first was my entrance audition. This is where the put you in front of a bunch of old classical guys and they tell you to play old classical music... I never played a classical tune on my saxophone before in my life. In fact, I did not prepare a traditional song either, I took a song that I thought sounded classical, wrote a classical background track for it, recorded it in my studio and arrived at my first audition with a boom box, saxophone, and hair down to my butt. I thought the judges were going to pass out. I played my solo... It was a jazzed classical tune. They were a tough crowd. They had me sight read... YIKES. They had me play classical etudes. Double YIKES... When I left, I was fairly certain that I was not going to go to college here....
My second audition was for the jazz staff. I was invited to play with the top combo. I met the lead sax player in the book store earlier that morning and he told me that he would go easy on me that afternoon and try not to make me look bad... He quite that combo after that... right before I started school (still played in the lower band)...
They took me into the program because of my raw ability. They said it was scary. They fact that a scored an entire orchestral arrangement for my audition and then pulled that jazz audition is what did it. They knew I was never going to be a 'classical' guy.
I had no theory training up to that point. Four years later, I was eating people for breakfast. Why, I already had the natural talent. I needed something to tie it all together. I needed a way to express it to others. When I write a musical score, I need to know that others can read what I want them to do. When I teach here, I teach so that we are speaking with the same musical language.
I will use another example. If you do not teach a baby how to speak, he will develop his own language that is made up of grunts and none words. That is the nature of the human mind. We are a learning creature. God designed us this way. When I see so many people fighting against learning the basics of reading music and learning basic notational skills, yet taking the time to learn another form a non standard musical theory, I have to ask myself why? Why not learn something that is universal? That we can all share?
Theory has put a sharp edge on my musical blade. I picked up the keyboards in lightning fast speed because I understood theory. When I listen to music I understand the music that is happening but most importantly I understand WHAT and HOW it is happening. It saves time and I can convey that to others in a universal way.
Wolf
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a couple of things on this well written autobiographical story
first you are fortunate to have had such a raw talent
second the number system we use hear is based in par on figured bass without the roman numerals
so it is theoretical
but indeed a little known and used device
but admitting very effective in communicating basic progressions and such
third
your story illustrates that one way or the other you need both
the talent or the ability and the theory
you sought theory for a way to tie it all together
I seek raw talent or increased ability in order to fully apply my theory
one way or another you have to bite the bullet and practice some drills
and songs
or learn some theoretical principles
how much theory is enough?
whatever it takes to get you to express your gift as God would have you do it
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College was rough. It was tough to sit through lessons with professors that were 'out of touch' with real world applications. I think that this is why I know where many of you guys are coming from here. Theory is a chore to learn, but the end results are stupendous. It is like your brain and ears get connected for the first time. It is a horse and saddle combination :)
Having one OR the other is cool but put them together and you are in for a much more comfortable ride. :)
Thank you for explaining the number system to me. That clears everthing up now. I was scratching my head there for a while :) That is a VERY classical approach and I applaud you for digging that far into the histories to get it. It was confusing to me at first because you never talk about inversion or major / minor chords here in the same way that I do and I thought I was going crazy :o)
What I think is truly the MOST important thing for all of us to learn is how to communicate to each other as learning musicians. My goal here is to learn what YOU can teach me about Gospel music. I am a babe in the woods there. My strength is jazz. I feel like it is a great stepping stone for sharing and fellowship when you can merge two styles like this. We just have to have patience with each other because and understand that theory is sometimes a method to demonstrate and educate each other on some new snappy things.
I promise to keep and open mind... :o)