LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: Andrzej on August 10, 2006, 11:54:27 AM
-
This post is not really to do with bass...more to do with the Gospel music itself.
I had an interesting conversation with a music lover at my Church a few days ago. He was reminiscing over the days that we used to play a lot more Gospel/Funk songs a few years back and how our Church has moved onto more contemporary praise & worship.
His opinion was that a lot of Gospel music that he listens to at home has become very R&B influenced and that the term ‘Gospel’ is no longer accurate. Now, when I asked him what he defines as Gospel and his reply was “like what you see in the Blues Brothers movie when James Brown takes the part of the preacher!”. I couldn’t help but laugh! I then gave him my view that Gospel is not necessarily one style of music, but a melting pot of several styles that has been picked up over the past 50yrs or so such as Funk, Soul, Jazz and Motown. I believe modern R&B has been forged from the influence of Gospel styles, but I still regard that flavour as Gospel, just like Rock’n’Roll in the 50’s was taken from 12-bar Blues…underneath it’s still 12-bar Blues, but in a new form. It’s the way music travels and progresses and Gospel music has been around for a long time. It will take new shapes and forms to lead it into a new generation of music. It all comes back to where it originated.
He still wasn’t too convinced. He said that he visits a Church in London when he goes to see his family and he said that the music there is like going to a Destiny Child concert. He said that he feels like entertainment more than praise & worship and he finds it hard to be a part of it as the musicians and singers are so dominant. One thing he said really stuck in my memory…he said, “It is like watching a very well tuned performance instead of being there to participate”. It begs the question whether the band and singers are leading the praise & worship or controlling it. Even though my Church plays more contemporary styles these days from when I was playing full-time, I can sometimes see the same attributes he was referring to.
It was a compelling dilemma that he raised. As a non-musician I take his and other peoples views and opinions more seriously than a musician. Most of the congregation that goes to Church every meeting are non-musicians and pick up on things that we may not. They are there to receive, but also to give and being able to strike a balance is important.
What are your views?
-
I think your friend is dead on.
-
Indeed.
A lot of times the Music Department forgets that it's there to lead the congregation, instead of giving a show. The most important thing in leading is not LEAVING your people behind. If the Music Department goes off into its own thing and the congregation is barely participating, or not getting the FULL effect of what you're suppose to be ministering, then you have to turn around and go get them. The time you can go off into your own world is when you're alone, not when you're leading. Many times people say "we're doing this for God, not for the people", but that's only partially true. John 21 talks about this. The disciples were out doing their own thing. The price of being a leader is that you can't do your own thing. You have to consider the people.
-
I remember when I was a kid at a GOGIC church. Praise and Worship was the earlier part of service when everyone would sing, cry, holla, run around the church. It was not until I got older that I understood that it was a personal connection with GOD to thank him for his grace and mercy.
I used to love it when the choir would march in with their robes and steps. If the MASS or Youth Choir was singing that Sunday I did my best to stay awake. As a kid I looked forward to that part of church. To me it was entertainment.
Now that I'm older, as a musician in the church I realize that when it's time for the choir to sing it has a different purpose then Praise and Worship. It is more of a testimony in song. You are telling people what GOD has done and what he can do. Be it R&B style, Latin, Rock, Funk, Jazz...whateva...as long as it has GOD in it, I'm with it.
-
I believe what you are saying. Eventhough gospel artist dont want to admitt it its becoming more of entertainment than ministry though the ministry tag is put to everything. I think there are many factors invovled in deciphering gospel music. I personally feel the musician must be conscious of the church environment and culture of the church. The spirit of the pastor is over the church so the music must fit his ministry. Also the music should fit the culture of the people in that church because it makes them feel more a part of the church. I know many musicians want to change the music standards set in a certain church to fit the fad of the moment but that does not always work. Im in a somewhat new/old school Apostolic church. The other musicians always trying to imitate the new school but thats not the atmosphere my pastor has setup. I play at a Cogic church and a song that may have the church rocking there will not have much of an effect at my church.
I responed to a post in the keyboard room. When I listen to certain gospel artists it sounds like broadway. If music is used in movies to create a certain mood this same spirit will end up in the churches. If your pastor wants entertainment then I guess thats what he gets. lol I believe all these things have their perspective places. Concert music at a concert, worship music at a worship service.
-
I think it's always been 'R&B'! I also agree it seems to have become more of a 'performance' as opposed to the old style of the entire church singing hymns 'together'! I feel what your friend is saying. I have to say though that I do like the new urban gospel sound as opposed to listening to traditional hymns some of which were written centuries ago!
-
I personally do put gospel in a box like it has been said gospel music is a melting pot for all genres of music. The reason for that is "Gospel" isnt a sound it is a message so if I put the message of Christ over a Beyonce' beat is it not gospel? (a la' James Fortune) of course it is eventhough some ppl may argue that fact but it is true. Our job as musicians isnt to be a show, it is to open the door so that Christ can be glorified, so again (I personally) believe that gospel can be R&B, Hip Hop, Rock, Jazz, Latin, Contemporary, Techno, Classical, Country, or whatever else is out there AS LONG AS IT GLORIFIES GOD.
-
Contemporary black gospel has always been influenced by other contemporary styles of black music (funk, r&b, hip-hop). As with contemporary Chrstian music (CCM), the genre is defined soley by its lyrical content rathern the the format. So weather it is blues, jazz, r&b, or rock really doesn't matter. It's all about the message of the music. Now your friend does make some good points. Worship leaders, musicians, and singers need to be lead by the Holy Spirit to attain the right balance of song selections. Music is a very complex artform that has elements of entertainment as well as ministry deeply interwoven together. With regards to musical style, I think that many people will agrere that tradional black gospel, older choir music, and even early contemporary gospel had a unique feel. They may have been influenced by other styles like the blues, but there was something unique about them.
-
It is my humble opinion that Gospel is Gospel whether is rapped, sung with a contemporary, R&B, pop, reggae or whatever twist, the Gospel of Jesus Christ will still be the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It has the power to save no matter who or where the listener may be. Gospel music changed as Shirley Caesar left and Andre' Crouch came in, and then changed as he left and Kirk Franklin came in, and it changed again as folks like the Cross Movement came on the scene. Music is evolutionary and the gospel is revolutionary, they must be combined to reach the lost. The Gospel is the same but the ministers are different. Just like there was a difference between the Apostles who wrote the synoptic gospels but the message at its core was still the same ( in other words Mark didn't write like Matthew, Luke or John), so it is in this Gospel music arena. Although some people go overboard in my opinion (but that's just my opinion) i think we have to realize that there are people in positions that God may not have ordained them to be in. Maybe the P & W team in London may have been called to go on tour, while there may be some folks touring London who God may have called to be leading P & W. This my opinion, and only that. ;D
-
I also believe Gospel music is a melting pot of all Genre's mixed to Glorify Christ. Honestly, most of the R&B singers started in the church so thats where they really developed the style and groove(Just my opinion). Me personally I am new to the keys but my style tends to lean towards R&B and Neo soul movements more than traditional Gospel or " Church Music". I feel what you are saying about it becoming more a show or performance. Thats what makes it more like R&B because now you have a beat but no anointing behind it. I feel some P&W leaders do take it as "Its my time to shine" and more flesh then spirit is involved.
-
BTW, the current issue of Jet has an article about gospel titled "Old School Or New School Gospel Music Is Everlasting". I'll be reading that on the train ride home from work today.
-
I HAVE TO AGREE WITH EVERYONE BECAUSE EVERYONES HAS EXCELLENT POINTS
BUT REALLY THINK ABOUT IT REALLY THINK ABOUT IT
IT IS NOT THE STYLE OF MUSIC YOU ARE USING TO PRAISE GOD WITH
THAT IS YOUR CHOICE AS A MUSICIAN AND THE TYPE OF PEOPLE THAT ARE IN YOUR CHURCH THINK ABOUT IF YOU STARTED OF PRIASE AND WORSHIP AT A
CONSEVERATIVE ALL WHITE CHURCH( NO RACIAL INTENTED JUST AN EXAMPLE AND I AM WHITE ANYWAYS SO TOOBAD) YOU START PLAYING SOME OF THE FUNKIEST FRED HAMMOND SONGS THEY COULD NOT RELATE IT WOULD NOT BE PRAISE AND WORSHIP IT WOULD BE A BAND PLAYING MUSIC AND VIS VERSA
AT MY CHURCH IF I STARTED TO PLAY SOME UPBEAT CHRISTIAN ROCK YES IT IS STILL PRAISE BUT MY FELLOW CHURCH MEMBERS WOULD NOT RELATE TO IT
SO AS MUSICIANS OR CHURCH FOLK WE CAN NOT LABEL GOSPEL BECAUSE IT IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE ( TASTE)
NOW FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO GOSPEL MUSIC
YOU GUY ALREADY KNOW
SOME CAME ALONG AND SAID WOW WITH A LITTLE MARKETING AND SOME POLISH WE CAN MAKE ALOT OF MONEY OF THIS STUFF
AND WHILE EVERYONE IS THINKING WE ARE DOING THIS FOR GOD WE WILL GET PAYED
I REMEMBER WHEN YOU DID NOT HAVE TO PLAY WITH MAJOR RECORDING ARTISTS TO PLAY A A BIG CHURCH
NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY CHURCH WANTS THE BEST MUSICIANS BUT PLEASE CORRECT ME
IT HAS GONE WAY TOO FAR
HALF OF THE GOSPEL GROUPS ARE MADE UP FROM SECULAR BANDS THAT ARE OUT OF THE NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT JUST USING GOSPEL AS A CAREER MOVE
THAT WHAT IS MAKING THE PERFORMANCE VIEWS COME OUT
BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE CAN TELL IF IT IS FROM THE HEART OR FOR MONEY OR PERSONAL GLORY
-
I REMEMBER WHEN YOU DID NOT HAVE TO PLAY WITH MAJOR RECORDING ARTISTS TO PLAY A A BIG CHURCH
NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY CHURCH WANTS THE BEST MUSICIANS BUT PLEASE CORRECT ME
IT HAS GONE WAY TOO FAR
HALF OF THE GOSPEL GROUPS ARE MADE UP FROM SECULAR BANDS THAT ARE OUT OF THE NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT JUST USING GOSPEL AS A CAREER MOVE
THAT WHAT IS MAKING THE PERFORMANCE VIEWS COME OUT
BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE CAN TELL IF IT IS FROM THE HEART OR FOR MONEY OR PERSONAL GLORY
A-MEN!!!!!!!!!!!
I made a post about these very type of musicians on my myspace page.
-
BUT A FRIEND FROM DALLAS JUST CALLED ME
AND I HAVE TO STAY REAL
THERE ARE PEOLPLE THAT HAVE PLAYED IN CHURCH SINCE THEY WERE CHILDREN AND HAVE TAKEN UT TO A NATIONAL LEVEL FOR GODS GLORY AND HIS GLORY ONLY HARD THING TO DO BUT THEY HAVE (WITH EGOS VANITY ECT) BUT THERE ARE ARTIST OUT THERE THAT HAVE
AND MY BOY BROUGHT UP A VERY GOOD POINT ARE WE JELOUS THAT WE ARE NOT THE ONES IN THE SPOT LIGHT PRAISING GOD BECAUSE GOD IS ABLE TO RECIEVE PRAISE FROM THE BEST MUSICIAN AND THE WORST
SOME TIMES I AM IT DOES BOTHER ME THAT YOU HAVE TO BE A SUPERSTAR ALMOST TO HAVE YOUR PRAISE MUSIC EXCEPTED
BUT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALL ARE TO BLAME
-
AND MY BOY BROUGHT UP A VERY GOOD POINT ARE WE JELOUS THAT WE ARE NOT THE ONES IN THE SPOT LIGHT PRAISING GOD BECAUSE GOD IS ABLE TO RECIEVE PRAISE FROM THE BEST MUSICIAN AND THE WORST
SOME TIMES I AM IT DOES BOTHER ME THAT YOU HAVE TO BE A SUPERSTAR ALMOST TO HAVE YOUR PRAISE MUSIC EXCEPTED
BUT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALL ARE TO BLAME
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be just as happy praising the Lord in my 150 member chruch as I would in a 200,000 venue. To me praise is praise. Like Shekinah Glory Ministry said "Praise is what I do".
-
MY BOY GETS PAID 63,000 A YEAR TO PLAY DRUMS
TRAVELS WITH THE CHURCH AND ALL EXPENSIS PAID
MY SOUL JUST AS HAPPY I 100 PERCENT AGREE WITH YOU J
BUT MY FLESH MAN
THATS WHAT IM TALKING BOUT IT WOULD BE NICE TO JUST PLAY FOR A LIVING
-
IT WOULD BE NICE TO JUST PLAY FOR A LIVING
you aint neva lied!!!!
-
Quick question....
Did Gospel music come from secular music or did secular music come from Gospel?
A large % of secular artist came out of the church. I reiterate out of the church. I believe that God has his ministers who please him and the enemy has those that please him.
I take the position that Gospel is not a genre but a form of worship towards God and inspiration to Gods people.
So is Gospel R&B? Nope it cant be R&B is music to move the flesh and Gospel is music to move God.
Keep in mind that those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
IMHO
Peace
-
NO GOSPEL IS NOT R&B
IT IS JAZZ FUNK ROCK COUNTRY CLASSICAL BLUES AND R&B MIXED TOGETHER
AND WHY SHOULD NOT GOSPEL BE MAINSTREM LIKE R&B YOU MEAN TO TELL ME GOD WOULD NOT WANT PRAISE MUSIC ON THE MAIN LINE
THE ONLY REASON THAT IT GETS STICKY LIKE I SAID BEFORE IS THAT THE RECORD COMPANIES TAKE AWAY THE TRUE PURPOSE FOR A PROFIT AND CHANGE THE WHOLE REASON BEHIND THE MUSIC
AND NOW YOUR THE JUDGE / CONDEMER SO ALL ARTIST THAT CAME OUT OF THE CHURCH / CAME OUT OF THE CHURCH
OR ALL ARTIST THAT PERFORM NON GOSPEL MUSIC WORK FOR THE ENEMY
THAT A PRETTY BROAD STATMENT AND JUDGEFULL STATEMENT
SO FEEL FREE TO CONDEM A WHOLE LOT A PEOPLE YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT
AND ILL LEAVE THE GOD ARGUMENT ALONE
MUSIC ALL MUSIC LET ME REPEAT THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS EVIL MUSIC
I HAVE LISTEN TO LOVE SONGS THAT MOVED ME TO BE A BETTER HUSBAND LOVE MY WIFE MORE
MUST OF BEEN ONE OF THOSE ENEMY SERVING ARTISTS
-
Gospel Music the genre is Missing Choirs now all we have is groups
-
MUSIC ALL MUSIC LET ME REPEAT THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS EVIL MUSIC
I HAVE LISTEN TO LOVE SONGS THAT MOVED ME TO BE A BETTER HUSBAND LOVE MY WIFE MORE
so how do you feel about white supremecists music or anti-God music that tells it's listeners to cut themselves and do as many drugs as possible (i.e Death metal)?
-
I DID NOT EXPLAIN MY SELF CORRECTLY
SORRY
MUSIC IS NOT EVIL THE PEOPLE BEHIND IT MAKE IT GOOD OR BAD
AND EVEN DEATH METAL PLAYS OFF OF THE SAME KEYS THAT EVERY OTHER MUSIC PLAYS OFF OF
SO IF A DEATH METAL SONG IS IN THE KEY OF Eb THEN EVERY SONG IN THE KEY OF Eb IS EVIL
THAT IS WHAT I HAD MEANT
I IS PEOPLE NOT MUSIC WHAT I WAS TRING TO POINT OUT IS YOU CAN NOT PUT OTHER TYPES OF MUSIC IN A BOX AND LABEL IT BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOSPEL
-
MY BOY GETS PAID 63,000 A YEAR TO PLAY DRUMS
TRAVELS WITH THE CHURCH AND ALL EXPENSIS PAID
MY SOUL JUST AS HAPPY I 100 PERCENT AGREE WITH YOU J
BUT MY FLESH MAN
THATS WHAT IM TALKING BOUT IT WOULD BE NICE TO JUST PLAY FOR A LIVING
63,000 ar year, my flesh is kicking in. I could definately live happy with that. But on a serious note, I will say that Gospel music is evolving and sometimes the spirit is lost amongst the music. I'm guilty that I have played to be seen instead of ministry. I'll be the first to say that I haven't always gone to service with the right thing on my mind, so when I've played, I wasn't playing for the right reasons. I'm striving daily to be a better christian, I hope that everyone else is as well.
-
FINALLY SOMEONE WHOM IS TRULEY HONEST
BLESS YOU MAN
THAT IS WHAT I WAS TRING TO SAY IT IS HARD SOMETIMES TO KEEP IT STRAIGHT WHEN SOME GET PAID AND MOST OF US DO NOT
IF THAT IS YOUR HEART WE SHOULD ALL BE ABLE TO SPEND OUR LIFES AS WORSHIP MUSICIAN AND GET PAID FOR IT
NOT FOR THE BLING BLING
BUT TO SUPPORT OUR FAMILIES BECOME BETTER MUSICIANS ECT
AND WHERE THE POST STARTED IS THAT THE GOSPEL MUSIC INDUSTRY NOT THE MUSIC IT SELF THE POLITICS BEHIND HAVE BECOME LIKE EVERY OTHER MUSIC
BUSINESS PRACTICE OUT THERE
-
I DID NOT EXPLAIN MY SELF CORRECTLY
SORRY
MUSIC IS NOT EVIL THE PEOPLE BEHIND IT MAKE IT GOOD OR BAD
AND EVEN DEATH METAL PLAYS OFF OF THE SAME KEYS THAT EVERY OTHER MUSIC PLAYS OFF OF
SO IF A DEATH METAL SONG IS IN THE KEY OF Eb THEN EVERY SONG IN THE KEY OF Eb IS EVIL
THAT IS WHAT I HAD MEANT
I IS PEOPLE NOT MUSIC WHAT I WAS TRING TO POINT OUT IS YOU CAN NOT PUT OTHER TYPES OF MUSIC IN A BOX AND LABEL IT BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOSPEL
I agree with you on this completely
-
I think that the real gospel has a special anointed spirit that goes along with the song.
When I hear the rock gospel there is no anointed spirit that you feel from the song.
But wwhen I hear the songs sung that granma and grandad sang you can feel the special anointed spirit come from the songs.
-
NO GOSPEL IS NOT R&B
IT IS JAZZ FUNK ROCK COUNTRY CLASSICAL BLUES AND R&B MIXED TOGETHER
AND WHY SHOULD NOT GOSPEL BE MAINSTREM LIKE R&B YOU MEAN TO TELL ME GOD WOULD NOT WANT PRAISE MUSIC ON THE MAIN LINE
THE ONLY REASON THAT IT GETS STICKY LIKE I SAID BEFORE IS THAT THE RECORD COMPANIES TAKE AWAY THE TRUE PURPOSE FOR A PROFIT AND CHANGE THE WHOLE REASON BEHIND THE MUSIC
AND NOW YOUR THE JUDGE / CONDEMER SO ALL ARTIST THAT CAME OUT OF THE CHURCH / CAME OUT OF THE CHURCH
OR ALL ARTIST THAT PERFORM NON GOSPEL MUSIC WORK FOR THE ENEMY
THAT A PRETTY BROAD STATMENT AND JUDGEFULL STATEMENT
SO FEEL FREE TO CONDEM A WHOLE LOT A PEOPLE YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT
AND ILL LEAVE THE GOD ARGUMENT ALONE
MUSIC ALL MUSIC LET ME REPEAT THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS EVIL MUSIC
I HAVE LISTEN TO LOVE SONGS THAT MOVED ME TO BE A BETTER HUSBAND LOVE MY WIFE MORE
MUST OF BEEN ONE OF THOSE ENEMY SERVING ARTISTS
Wow, I see that you are very passionate about this topic.
However; I do believe that you have misconstrued my point.
My point being that a large percent of what has influenced secular (blues, R&B, rock, and even country) music was derived from old negro spirituals and songsters that were brought up singing them.
I maintain that true Gospel music is a root music not the fruit of other music.
Gospel music in its design should be for the edification and worship of God all mighty.
Secular music on the other hand is for well lets say the edification of the flesh.
That is why we do not hear amazing grace in the club and we do not hear snoop dog in the church…… Well not in most churches (smile) :D
Now as far as Gospel going mainstream I find no fault in its recent popularity and I agree that the industry will and in many cases has perverted the message for dollar sake.
For argument sake I will have to say that if I believe in holy then I have to believe in unholy (aka evil).
So with that in mind if I believe in holy music then I would have to believe in unholy music as well.
Now I will leave it up to your own interpretation.
By the way I never said that anybody was saved or not saved. That is not my place to say. I will say that compromise is sin and the wages of sin is death (aka separation from God). As you so eloquently said ” ILL LEAVE THE GOD ARGUMENT ALONE”
Peace
-
Gospel Music the genre is Missing Choirs now all we have is groups
LONG LIVE CHOIRS!!!!! ;D
On that note, I don't care how much you try to say "Gospel is not a style", there are certain songs that when you hear them (not just old school traditional either) you KNOW they are gospel, because of how they SOUND!! There are certain chords and progressions (like 7-3-6) that are used frequently in gospel music that are not really found anywhere else, so yes there is such thing as a gospel "SOUND". The fact that we have this very website proves that!
I listen to some of everything and love jazz-infused gospel, but atthe end of the day, when I want to hear gospel I don't want to hear anything that sounds like Beyonce. If I want to hear that, I'll put in BEYONCE'S CD!! I love gospel because of the message, but I also love the gospel SOUND, and my favorite type of music is gospel that SOUNDS like gospel! There's NOTHING like an awesome CHOIR!That's my OPINION and I'm sticking to it!! ;)
-
WELL THE GOD ARGUMENT
WHAT I MEANT I DO NOT PUT THE HOLY HAT ON JUST TO DISCUSS MUSIC OR TYPES OF MUSIC
MAINLY WHAT I DO ON THIS SITE IS POST PAGES AND PAGES OF MUSIC THEORY (BERKLEE) TO SHARE WITH OTHERS
AND YES I AM VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT MY MUSIC BECAUSE I PRODUCE PLAY AND PERFORM BOTH SECULAR AND GOSPEL AND WHEN THE UNHOLY OR EVIL STATEMENTS COME IN I GET VERY DEFENSIVE (SORRY) BECAUSE MY (SECULAR MUSIC) REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PLEASING THE FLESH AND ALL OF THE OTHER COMMENTS PEOPLE COME UP WITH
I AM A MUSICIAN WRITING MUSIC
DO NOT GET ME WRONG I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE CORRECT JUST MY VIEWS
EXAMPLE I AM SAVED GOD FEARING MAN DO I SPEAK TO GOD ALOT OH YES I DO
BUT EVERYTHING THAT COMES OUT OF MY MOUTH IS IT A BIBLE VERSE NO IT IS NOT
ON THE SAME TOKEN DO I TRY AND KEEP FROM SPEAKING WAYS I SHOULD NOT YES
SAME WITH MY MUSIC
DO I WRITE PRAISE OH COURSE BUT DO I ALSO WRITE A SONG ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS, LIFE, WORLD EVENTS YES,
AND BECAUSE IT IS NOT PRAISE IT IS BAD NO I DO NOT THINK SO
SOMETIMES NO LYRICS AT ALL
OH ONE OF MY SECULAR SONGS
http://media.learngospelmusic.com/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=94445&pos=-1824 (http://media.learngospelmusic.com/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=94445&pos=-1824)
SO IS MY SONG ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS UNHOLY
-
Bro. Thomas1168,
1st let me say that I applaud your passion and your love for music. I also thank you for your contribution to LGM and even this debate. We may not agree on everything but we can learn from one another and that makes forums like this so important.
Please don’t get me wrong I am not coming against you or what you do. I just maintain a view of separation of music for ministry and other forms of music. I do not believe that they are the same. No more than do I believe that a speech by a good orator that moves me is necessarily pulpit material. All things have a place this is why we call secular (secular) and gospel (gospel).
The discussion topic started with a question about gospel being R&B. The funny part is that we agree that music is music and even to the degree that it’s the people or spirit behind the music that make it positive or negative.
In fact we may very well be arguing points that are merely semantics.
We seem to differ in our belief that gospel is or is not myriad of other genres music.
Well I agree with you if you are saying genres in gospel music to mean (styles): we have gospel rap, country gospel, gospel rock and so on.
I will disagree though if you are saying that secular county, rap, r&b, rock and so on is true gospel or influences true gospel music.
I maintain that ministry is ministry and secular is secular by design and intent and that the majority of music in America is derived from a gospel influence not the other way around.
So, I conclude that in my opinion gospel is not r&b.
Peace
-
As musicians we are here to support the words that are coming across.It's the words thats gonna deliver(songs suppose to be based off scripture for its affectiveness). Now we as musicians can and on some occassion tainted it by putting self first.Always let God move and we follow. Thats when what we do be effective!!!!
-
I know you have more posts before this one thomas1168, but I hear what you are saying and I often feel the same way as you do.
It's difficult to take God's music out of the Church and to minister in a format that keeps its integrity and can be interpreted without conflict because it will always be criticised. I lived with that challenge for over 5yrs when I was a recording and performing Christian rock musician whilst signed to a mainstream secular record company…one of the biggest in the business. Now, our music wasn’t exactly light! It was pretty hardcore stuff. A lot (oh…a heck of a lot!) of people from the Church and many other Christian associations often kept their knives sharpened and were very quick to criticise what we were doing. I use to get emails and anonymous posts on our message board telling me that I was an anti-christ because of the style of the music that we played and that we were signed to a secular label. Our singer wrote very clever lyrics which consisted of his life experiences before he came to the Lord and how the Devil haunts him with his past so that he can come in-between his relationship with God. Believe me, he was no angel in his former life…there are two books published about his life and how he got saved! He has a past that would turn you green, but because of that God has used him as a great witness of his power and glory. We saw a lot of kids relate to him and we helped a lot more come to the Lord. The vehicle that we used was deemed ‘unconventional’ and ‘confrontational’. When we first started the band we tried to get signed by a Christian label. This is not an exaggeration; every company in the UK weren’t interested. We were approached by Universal during the time where bands like Limp Bizkit and Korn exploded onto the scene. A year later several UK Christian record companies started to follow suit, but even if we waited to get signed by one of those companies they wouldn’t have the financial muscle or even know what the heck to do with us or where to place us. It sucked being signed to a major, but they did put us into places where a Christian label wouldn’t dare to put us. That was the advantage that we had and we made more of an impact on peoples lives because we met them on their ground…not ours. Even I very frequently failed to understand how God was using us effectively in some pretty challenging environments. So, was what we did ‘Gospel’? Does God’s message stop being ‘Gospel’ once it has left the Church? That’s really open to your own interpretation, but I believe God’s message and how it travels is more malleable than what most of us will ever understand.
I left that band almost 3yrs ago because of a major disagreement I had with our management and since then I have been working with the Youth Ministry at my Church and I get frequent session work on a part-time basis. My day job pays pretty badly and I have a house that needs a lot of renovation, so I need the extra income. I have a few agents that get me the session work and there have been many instances where my participation on an official recording has been out of my control or I have been misled to what the music is being used for. A lot of the time I enter the studio and all I have to play with is a click track, maybe drums and some keyboards. I do my couple of hours of studio time, pack up and go home and a cheque for my fee arrives in the post two weeks later. I sometimes get a brief overview of what the project is for, but it doesn’t always turn out to what I have initially been informed. I always ask for a master copy when the final release has been cut for my portfolio. What I perform on can end up being used anywhere in-between a professional artist and a TV commercial for cattle feed in Romania…I never know until I get the master copy. Back in October 2005 I was asked to take my upright to a session to lay down some grooves for a hip-hop recording. That’s all I was told. At the time I thought it was the easiest jobs I have ever done as the engineers sat there and listened to me free style over very basic drum loops. They took little snips of what they liked the most and that was my job done. My agent sent me the master copy in the mail back in February this year and I was shocked. My work ended up on a debut hip-hop album for a well-known underground artist in the UK. ‘Great!’ I thought, until I listened to it. The lyrics are incredibly vulgar and offensive…there is no other way to describe it. There is one track on the album that uses one of my lines that is spoken in Spanish. My girlfriend speaks fluent Spanish and she translated it for me. She said that there is not one line in that song that doesn’t use a profanity or a disgusting sexual reference. I felt so embarrassed. I immediately picked up the phone and went crazy with agent that gave me that job. He excuse (which is a common one with every agent I have used) is that he tells me what he has been told about what ‘may’ happen to my work. Sometimes my name will get credited if my work ends up on an artist release, but on this occasion, thankfully it didn’t. That was probably the worst moment of my professional experience. Great thing about session work is that you are not contracted unless you officially perform with the artist; therefore you are not credited for royalties and appearances. I very rarely work on a project that will eventually be officially released for a secular artist. A lot of the work I do is what is called ‘Library’ recordings. It will be on file for a media publishing company and if they use it then it will be used for whatever. You have no control over what it will be used for at that point and more than often you will never find out either.
As a Christian and being musically active in and out of the Church in various duties I have always been challenged to keep my integrity. Yes, sometimes I have failed to do that and couldn’t find that ‘performance’ on/off button on the back of my head…it happens to the best of us from time to time. When I originally posted this topic I merely stated from an unbiased discussion that I had from a long-standing member of my Church and whom I hold a lot of respect for and I wanted to challenge both experienced and new musicians being used in the Church. I just wanted to see the opinions from a musician stand point to the Gospel v R&B dilemma. I didn’t want to make my opinion clear to keep the topic unbiased, so I will have my say now:
It’s not really a dilemma as far as I am concerned in the context of genres being used in and out of the Church. It doesn’t matter what ‘style’ of music you prefer to praise & worship to or to minister with. Music ministry comes in all kinds of designs and packages and will be identified as such… Contemporary, Hymn etc… IMHO, I have treated every style used in the Church, no matter of its origin, as ‘Gospel’ in its true meaning. What does that word mean? ‘Good word’. That can carry itself in any music form. We mostly use that word to identify a style of music that originated from African-American churches back in the 1930’s. Is Gospel now R&B? No…R&B is just another style of music. I think of Gospel as a culture which is centred around a core of music and has many shades and colours and not necessarily as any specific style of music. To debate if R&B originated from Gospel or even if it has replaced it is a topic I have no interest about because I really don't care in all honesty. That's open to your own interpretation and you are entitled to it and I respect it. It's music that can enjoyed and be used for God's glory and that's all I am concerned about. I am from a Jazz background and I hear these types of debates about styles all the time and it really bores me. If it's good music that people enjoy and use...let it be. I am not the 'music style' police and I don't determine right or wrong in music trends.
Okay, now onto the performance issue! I believe if the focus is God then you will be used for his glory and he will be mighty. Take your eyes of him and start thinking more about your ego then he will not move. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact of life as a Christian. There is nothing wrong with using performance in ministry as a medium because it has been a proven method of bringing people to God for many years, but when it takes over and spills into praise & worship then the congregation become spectators…not participants. Yes, use your giftings, be passionate about your giftings, always seek to improve yourself, give thanks for what God has given you and celebrate it, but understanding your role and applying yourself the needs of your Church is so important. Every Church worships differently and if you want to party like it’s 1999 or choose to worship with to the sound of bagpipes then that’s great…may God bless you, but understanding the needs and vision of your Church and keeping God in the fold is paramount.
-
OH ONE OF MY SECULAR SONGS
[url]http://media.learngospelmusic.com/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=94445&pos=-1824[/url] ([url]http://media.learngospelmusic.com/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=94445&pos=-1824[/url])
SO IS MY SONG ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS UNHOLY
Is that you singing?
-
I REPECT YOU VIEW AND I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM
BUT I DID NOT SAY THAT GOSPEL COMES FROM SECULAR MUSIC
SECULAR MUSIC INFLUENCES GOSPEL GOSPEL INFUENCES SECULAR JAZZ ROCK WHATEVER
AS A ARTIST THE HOT SOUND NEW SOUND WILL AND ALWAYS HAVE INFUENCED EVERY GENRE
BUT THAT COULD BE A WHOLE SEPERATE POST
QUESTION HOW MANY GOSPEL ARTISTS HAVE AND ARE PLAYING HOW CAN I SAY THIS UP TO DATE MUSIC WHAT IN RIGHT NOW
THE CURRENT SOUND HIP HOP TIBALAND ECT, MARY MARY, KIRK FRED ECT
THE ARE GETTING THERE IDEAS FROM POPULAR MUSIC (THEY HAVE TO THEY ARE TRING TO GET THROUGHT TO THE YOUNG GENERATION AND THAT GENERATION HAS ITS SOUND JUST LIKE THE 50 60 70 80 90S
WHERE I THINK YOU ARE GETTING CONFUSED IS THE LYRICS
AS A MUSICIAN I AM SAYING MUSIC IS MUSIC A COMBINATIONS OF STYLE SOME GOOD GREAT AND BAD
THE BEST IS ALL STYLES MIXED
I CAN RECORD A SONG WITH A SPOON AND POTS AND PANS AND SING THANK YOU LORD OVER IT
IT IS THE MESSAGE WITH IN THE MUSIC
I BELIEVE GOSPEL IS THE SAME AS R&B JAZZ ANND EVERY OTHER KIND OF GOOD MUSIC OUT THEIR
IT IS A MIX OF EVERYTHING
TODAYS MUSIC OLD SCHOOL ECT
2 WEEKS AGO PHONE CALL AT 9:30 PM
NOW WHEN SONY BMI CALLS AND SAY THOMAS WE LIKE THE SONG ( PRAISE HIS NAME) GOSPEL SONG FOR *&**&**
BUT THOMAS THE ARTIST WANTS THAT NEPTUNE FEEL ON THE DRUMS TRACK WE NEED IT BY THE END OF THE MONTH
OR EVEN THE SONG I POSTED LIKES SONG BUT LYRICS NEED WORK
THIS HAPPENS DAILY AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SPEAKING OF
-
There is nothing wrong with using performance in ministry as a medium because it has been a proven method of bringing people to God for many years, but when it takes over and spills into praise & worship then the congregation become spectators…not participants. Yes, use your giftings, be passionate about your giftings, always seek to improve yourself, give thanks for what God has given you and celebrate it, but understanding your role and applying yourself the needs of your Church is so important.
Bro. Andrzej,
I like the way you concluded especially the above.
Great testimony by the way….
-
I REPECT YOU VIEW AND I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM
BUT I DID NOT SAY THAT GOSPEL COMES FROM SECULAR MUSIC
And I didn't quote you or anyone else that has posted to this topic? ?/? I haven't made any remark about agreeing or disagreeing that Gospel comes from Secular music either, whether it be my opinion or otherwise?? ?/?
-
THE ANSWER TO JEME YES IT IS
AND TO ANDRE
WE ARE ON THE SAME PAGE MAN
ALL I DO IS GET CALLS ABOUT I NEED THIS TO SOUND LIKE THIS OR SOUND LIKE THAT
AND WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS TRY TO APPEAL TO A AGE GROUP THAT IS IT
IT IS NOT EVIL OR UNHOLY
BUT UNDERSTAND I AM SPEAKING ABOT THE MUSIC ONLY NOT ALL OF THE TRASH BEHIND MOST OF SECULAR MUSIC
WORKING WITH DIFFERENT ARTISTS
SECULAR OR GOSPEL THEY ALL ARE STILL HUMAN
AND BELIEVE YOU ME IT IS ALL ABOUT PERFORMANCE IN THE END
UNLESS THE WANT THEIR CONTRACT DROPPED
-
Apologies thomas1168...I didn't realise you were referring to somebody else's post. Forgive me bro! I feel like an idiot! :P
-
ANDRZEJ
THE LAST 4 POSTS WERE NOT DIRECTED AT YOU MAN
COME TO THINK ABOUT IT
I HAVE USED ALL BOUT LOVE IN OUR MARRAIGE / COUPLES MINISTRY
AND IT WAS GREATLY ACCEPTED
NOT FOR MY GLORY BUT FOR SHARING A RELATIONSHIP EXPERIENCE
-
THE ANSWER TO JEME YES IT IS
you have a great voice man.
-
NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE AT ALL MAN
I JUST GET WORKED UP BECAUSE IT TAKES SOMEONE WHOM WORKS IN THE BUSINESS MUSIC
GOSPEL JAZZ ECT
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT
-
Thomas,
:) I thought it would be good to post it as well for other readers
It’s okay to disagree. I have no malice or do I believe that you are holy or unholy. I know nothing about you I tend to believe that you are on LGM because you believe in Jesus and that is good enough for me.
I personally have made a commitment to play for God only. That is my personal conviction and mine alone.
Brothers if I seem to come off harsh or judgmental please forgive me for that. I am just bringing a different point of view in what I consider to be an intelligent discussion. I know that my position is not the most popular or do I expect it to be. However, I feel that it is just a valid as any other.
Lets not allow this discussion to overtake the real objective of the site and that is for us to become better musicians for God. Keep informing… keep training….keep on doing what God has blessed you to do.
:) Let me say that the song written and performed in your couple ministry is fine and should have been received well. (not unholy)
Peace my friend,
-
THANK YOU
AND THERE ARE NO HARD FEELINGS WHAT SO EVER
BUT IF I COULD MAKE A LIVING IN THE CHURCH I WOULD BE A ( CHURCH ONLY MUSICIAN )
BUT SOMEWHERE SOME HOW IT HAS BEEN SET AS THE NORM THAT ALL MUSICIANS IN THE CHURCH SHOULD GIVE THIER SERVICES FOR FREE
THIS IS A WHOLE SEPERATE POST BUT
THE TRUTH IS IF YOU PLAN TO BE A FULL TIME MUSICIAN YOU WILL HAVE TO GO OUT OF THE CHURCH TO MAKE MONEY UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY LUCKY
OR RELATED TO SOMEONE
LIKE ANDRE SAYS YOU CAN ONLY KEEP YOUR INTEGRITY OUT SIDE OF THE CHURCH
-
THANK YOU
AND THERE ARE NO HARD FEELINGS WHAT SO EVER
BUT IF I COULD MAKE A LIVING IN THE CHURCH I WOULD BE A ( CHURCH ONLY MUSICIAN )
BUT SOMEWHERE SOME HOW IT HAS BEEN SET AS THE NORM THAT ALL MUSICIANS IN THE CHURCH SHOULD GIVE THIER SERVICES FOR FREE
THIS IS A WHOLE SEPERATE POST BUT
THE TRUTH IS IF YOU PLAN TO BE A FULL TIME MUSICIAN YOU WILL HAVE TO GO OUT OF THE CHURCH TO MAKE MONEY UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY LUCKY
OR RELATED TO SOMEONE
LIKE ANDRE SAYS YOU CAN ONLY KEEP YOUR INTEGRITY OUT SIDE OF THE CHURCH
well said. AMEN!!!! I would love to be a full time musician myself, and play for the church.