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Gospel Instruments => Bass Guitar => Topic started by: cordney on January 01, 2007, 12:13:01 AM
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I wanted to know how others felt about musicians playing and not being saved.
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My first thought is no. On second thought, some folk have been brought to Jesus through playing and other services on His behalf. So bottomline is, whoever is in charge needs to pray and make a decision.
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Its not my place to say whether they can or can't play, but I believe that if they are at church at the least they can get the word and God can talk to their spirit and a seed can be planted.
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I think that if they are playing for the church as in all ministries that a standard has to be set. However, the original question was some what open.
I wanted to know how others felt about musicians playing and not being saved.
So if they are a guest playing it may be okay depending on the Pastors views.
As for me the music department is ministry and the bylaws dictate that anyone holding a position in ministry must be saved.
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I wanted to know how others felt about musicians playing and not being saved.
How about shedding a little more light on why this question is being asked.
Thanks
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I think that if they are playing for the church as in all ministries that a standard has to be set. However, the original question was some what open. So if they are a guest playing it may be okay depending on the Pastors views.
As for me the music department is ministry and the bylaws dictate that anyone holding a position in ministry must be saved.
...so how do you know they are saved....????
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I'm not trying to be deep but, the good book(bible) does say that gifts come without repentances so I do feel you can play or at least be allowed to play. Plus read Psalms 150 it doesn't say if your saved praise him on the stringed instruments. My 2 cents
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If a rock can praise Him.. I guess an unsaved musician can too.
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I asked the question just(out of curiosity) to see how others felt...I feel if you're unsaved but trying to get right then you should be allowed to play. I, also, feel that someone's music saved or unsaved can help someone else find what they are looking for.
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First of all let me say Praise the Lord Bro. Uriah,
It has been a while since I have exchanged thoughts with you. I have read that you have been under the weather. I pray that all is better.
Now for your question:
So how do you know they are saved....????
Well that is a very good question and the quickest answer would be…
know them that labor among you. 1 Th 5:12
But that would be too easy for a good exchange of dialect.
So how about:
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:16
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matt 7:20
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Tim 4:5
(enfaces on make full proof of thy ministry)
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:35
IMHO
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First of all let me say Praise the Lord Bro. Uriah,
It has been a while since I have exchanged thoughts with you. I have read that you have been under the weather. I pray that all is better.
Now for your question:
Well that is a very good question and the quickest answer would be…
know them that labor among you. 1 Th 5:12
But that would be too easy for a good exchange of dialect.
So how about:
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:16
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matt 7:20
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Tim 4:5
(enfaces on make full proof of thy ministry)
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:35
IMHO
I know this is for Uriah but ....
What about the look-a-likes you know the ones that dresses the part to a T but when push comes to shove the just like the unsaved person.
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Praise him Mr.DJ,
Great questions!
That is a problem if we are fooled by a false spirit…..
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:16
I believe if we have done all that we can do to be led of God and we make a mistake as soon as we find it out that we have been fooled we should repair the damage and rid the “Achan.” Joshua 7th chapter. Okay maybe not to the degree that is portrayed in the chapter but I think you know what I am saying.
By the way if we being filled with the Holy Ghost are dependant on the Holy Ghost to guide us how come we get fooled? Hummmmmmmmmmm
Peace
Stay Blessed
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Good question. I hope my (opinion) is one that will carry a Spiritual overtone rather than what I think.
First of all I am a senior pastor of a medium size church, therefore my response to the question is from
a ministry prospective. Now if someone comes through the doors of the church as a visitor, guest or
someone seriously seeking the Lord, who expresses the fact that they play or sing. I would embrase
them as I would anyone. However I would also take the time to find out their interest and how they
see themselves utilizing their gift. Some may say I want to give my gift to the church because God has
blessed me with it, and not associate that along with the plan of salvation. Now that is where good
teaching and preaching and wisdom should come in. Allow me to explain, The Lord does teach us
patience and many times we feel the need to press people into ministry as opposed to God drawing
them into it, especially when it comes to the music ministry. It takes patience to catch a fish, and skill
to skin it.
This is getting lenghty but allow me to make my point.
I hope we can agree that to play music skillfully is a gift that is honned through time, hopefully we can
futher agree that music does carry a certain spirit. So as musicians we may have the gift and the skill, but
to be as effective as God would want us to be we need the anointing. Now if we are going to be before
God and His people to usher in the Spirit of God into our mist. I talking about that yoke destroying burden
removing power of God that anointing that is coming from our heart through our fingers and amplified into
the ears of the hearers that causes there hearts to melt for God. I have heard very talented musicians and
singers that could give you chills or goose bumps, but that's not a substitute for the anointing, so I am further
saying that I would not recruit, or hire a musician on talent alone. How can we usher in a Spirit that we do not
know. God is holding us to a standard. If we compromise it here, then why as a pastor shouls I be saved, can't
I just preach and teach because I know the word. Do I need to know God to be be effective? And if people expect
me as a pastor to know God and live for Him, is it rediculous for musicians, singer, ushers, and anyone else effecting
God's people to come up yo the standard. After all we are ministers are we not, through the music comes a message
and we are the containers, I preach and play for God because I love Him with all my heart my soul and my strength.
When I play I am serenading Him playing to Him and for Him those that are present just happen to be the receipants
of that demonstration of love translated into power. An unsaved person gifted and all will never make that connection
until God takes them there. So we must be careful how we handle the Lord's business.
Sorry for the long post.
Blessings,
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I say no... I agree with Pastor Gospaul.
The Church is not a social club, those who minister, should be held to a standard. I would even go as far as being "quote" "unquote" "SAVED" - and living a CARNAL lifestyle. That is a whole nother, topic to itself, need sit down somewhere.
About the Gifts and Callings being without repentance, this is true. But that in no way shape or form means, people who haven't, given their lives to the Lord, are gifted of God. The gifts of God can only be given through the Holy Spirit dwelling on the inside. That scripture is refering to the Gifts of God being irrevocable, once given, he doesn't take them back.
This post is not to be self righteous, or shake a finger saying nan-nanny-boo-boo you can't play, but to state GOD has a standard, that has not changed. The scripture bears witness to this line of thought. If you look at the scriptures as a whole, sin was not tolerated, at all. Today's church has become politically correct, under the guise of not being judgemental. Which is why there is power lacking in so many believers, to simply live this Christian Life to the Glory of God. Casual Christianity = neglecting God's gift.
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I personally believe that it's not my place to judge whether someone is saved or not,; furthermore, I don't think that it's my place to say who can or cannot play in church. Everyone has a personal relationship with GOd and it's up to that person to make that decision. Just my take on things
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This is not about Judgement, no one can Judge righteously but God, when it comes to someone's salvation. The original Question was about "unsaved" musicians, so there is no guessing, if they are saved or not. He didn't ask about professing Christians. So my assumption is they are admittedly "UNSAVED"
I have to disagree, that everyone has a relationship with God. Again, this is not my opinion, this is according to the BIBLE. Humanity came out of God, but after sin came in, there was a separation, and now only through Jesus, can fellowship/relationship be restored.
If it was left up to everyone's discretion if they played or not, it would be anarchy. God has established Church government for our own good. With that said, if a fellowship of believers, allows people who are admittedly "UNSAVED" to play. Then that's the responsibility, and perogative of that particular fellowship of believers Leadership. I don't speak against them, I don't say they are damned to Hell, or anything like that.
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What about the look-a-likes you know the ones that dresses the part to a T but when push comes to shove the just like the unsaved person.
My sentiments exactly. I know guys that played dilignelty, waved their hands in the air, and even offered a few shouts. Help them load their gear into the car, and they got weed ready for the road. They just didn't know I saw it.
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My sentiments exactly. I know guys that played dilignelty, waved their hands in the air, and even offered a few shouts. Help them load their gear into the car, and they got weed ready for the road. They just didn't know I saw it.
:o I'd snitch them out... ;D
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I'm going to tell my story hope it helps... I played bass long before I was saved never played in a night club or anything of that nature always played in the church. Being that I'm apostolic I was not demeed saved until I was filled with the HolySpirit, but my lifestyle had changed so basically I was saved not Spirit-filled.
So when it came down to me playing I was only able to play for my local church but I hung around the guys that played for the other church functions that called themselves "Spirit-filled" They did any and everything they could and people knew this but allowed them to play but made a big stink when I wanted to play and found out I was not spirit-filled.
You mean to tell me that you would allow musician who call themselves SAVED to play for your church, but the musician that is trying to do right all they know how you would pull him aside and tell him you can't play.
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I wanted to know how others felt about musicians playing and not being saved.
If God has blessed them with the gift of music who are we to decide whether they play or not
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Praise him Bro. Gospaul,
From pastor to pastor- Thanks for words excellently said.
It takes the anointing to break the yoke. Ministry is a called and anointed assignment of and by God for God.
For some reason the church has removed the call of ministry from the music. Okay for the obvious reasons of the great appeal that music provides. Folks will ask how good your choir and music are before they ask about how anointed the preaching is.
With this said entertainment has replaced anointing in many of our churches. Thus the atmosphere for worshiping the creature rather than the Creator is established. This is why it is so difficult for some believers to tell the difference between the two (anointing or entertainment) and the effect is natural not supernatural.
Ironically entertainment draws numbers and numbers equal dollars. Dollars equal the ability to build and provide programs or services to the community. The inherent problem with this is that we begin to rely on carnal means to replicate the works of God. If this trend is allowed to persist the anointing may be totally replaced by skill, ability and sheer entertainment.
IMHO
Stay blessed
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I think the operative word Mr. DJ in your post is, "Calls themselves Saved", there should be evidence or fruit of salvation. Again, I am not saying I pass judgement on
a persons salvation, but fruit would have to be present.
If God has blessed them with the gift of music who are we to decide whether they play or not
I pose another question then, would you allow a stripper, to praise dance?
There is a difference in performance and ministry. Think it not strange that all the Ministers of Music in the Temple were levitical priests. Dare I open the can of worms
that WORSHIP is not acceptable, if not offered through Jesus. And yes, a born again believer can offer unsatisfactory praise.
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With this said entertainment has replaced anointing in many of our churches. Thus the atmosphere for worshiping the creature rather than the Creator is established. This is why it is so difficult for some believers to tell the difference between the two (anointing or entertainment) and the effect is natural not supernatural.
Well said, sir.
Recently we were on the 6th Street in Austin, Texas; with the soul purpose to preach the Gospel. I was amazed that about 90% of the people we spoke to, were "SAVED" Mind you most were drunk, and or on a mission, that didn't reflect holiness. They were unashamed to tell what Church they attended, and who their Senior Pastor was. I would have been utterly embarassed. Then when posed with Questions like, "Are you serving Jesus, tonight". Some said no, while others still maintained that they were justified in being in this environment. Austin, boast in being the LIVE MUSIC Capital of the World. I could have walked in any of those Bars, and grabbed, a musician, that could have came and turned a CHURCH out the next morning.
Alot can be said for HOLINESS, and that standard has been dropped, all week long, to only try and muster up much excitement come Sunday Morning.
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I agree with the Pastors. Some great points were made in the subject.
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Mr. DJ and myself(related), started playing for our church(at that time) at a early age(15). I can only speak for myself but at that age being saved was the last thing on my mind but I enjoyed playing every Sunday. As I got older and joined the military when someone asked me to play for their church I would tell them "NO" because I knew I wasn't living right and at that time in my life I wasn't trying to live right. Now that I'm a lil' older and tryin to get my house in order and doing my best to live right before him, I see no problem with myself playing at church.
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I was not demeed saved until I was filled with the HolySpirit
could you explain this process a little more. We don't use this phraising in my church, so I would like to know how the church knows when someone is filled with the HolySpiri.
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One of the ways I remember hearing is by their fruits....how they act, talk or carry themselves but it's a little more than that I will look it up and find out more for you.
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I would assume, it is a difficult task, to tell if a person has the Spirit of God or not. I say i assume because I would never attempt to do so.
Some might sight David, being a man after God's heart, yet... look at some of the stuff he did. But don't be negligent, in seeing how God dealt
with David in various situations, He wasn't able to build God's temple.
Some might sight, there are things that come along with Salvation, while this is true, they can be imitated and duplicated in public, as well as private.
I know some folks who aren't Christian but are patient, kind, caring, loving etc...
My fundamental position is I believe most saints quarell over Justification, when Sanctification is where God is trying to get us.
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I would assume, it is a difficult task, to tell if a person has the Spirit of God or not. I say i assume because I would never attempt to do so.
Some might sight David, being a man after God's heart, yet... look at some of the stuff he did. But don't be negligent, in seeing how God dealt
with David in various situations, He wasn't able to build God's temple.
Some might sight, there are things that come along with Salvation, while this is true, they can be imitated and duplicated in public, as well as private.
I know some folks who aren't Christian but are patient, kind, caring, loving etc...
My fundamental position is I believe most saints quarell over Justification, when Sanctification is where God is trying to get us.
yeah that's what i was kind of thinking. I've heard the term used before and I kind of figured that it was leading towards the fruits they bear, but at the same time you ahve some people that act one way around the church folks and another as soon as they step out of the church (EVERYONE has seen this).
I think that ti's wrong for the chruch or anyone to say when someone is "filled with the holy spirit" or isn't.
only god can judge.
As for me, I would be weary of letting someone not of believe helping usher in the spirit. For all you know they might usher in a spirit that you don't want up in the church. nothing wrong with them coming, but music is powerful and definately more then just notes. It's your attitude and your beliefs, your convictions and your faith touching others as you play and if you aint right then the message aint gonna be right.
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For all you know they might usher in a spirit that you don't want up in the church. nothing wrong with them coming, but music is powerful and definately more then just notes. It's your attitude and your beliefs, your convictions and your faith touching others as you play and if you aint right then the message aint gonna be right.
So true!
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could you explain this process a little more. We don't use this phraising in my church, so I would like to know how the church knows when someone is filled with the HolySpiri.
The evidence of speaking in tongues.
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Mr. DJ and myself(related), started playing for our church(at that time) at a early age(15). I can only speak for myself but at that age being saved was the last thing on my mind but I enjoyed playing every Sunday. As I got older and joined the military when someone asked me to play for their church I would tell them "NO" because I knew I wasn't living right and at that time in my life I wasn't trying to live right. Now that I'm a lil' older and tryin to get my house in order and doing my best to live right before him, I see no problem with myself playing at church.
If my cuz and I were under the leadership that you couldn't play until your saved, I feel that we would have never started to play simply b/c we would not have got the opportunity.
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Torch7
You asked a question about the stripper ( I thought was very funny), but I pose this question what about the youth. Do you stop them from singing on sunday? What about the little one that has the gift to play, do you sit them down and say no you can't play until you get saved?
I'm not trying to be hard up on the subject but if I had been done like this I don't believe I would be the Minister I am today.
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could you explain this process a little more. We don't use this phraising in my church, so I would like to know how the church knows when someone is filled with the HolySpiri.
One of our main goals as Christians are to pull or draw the unsave ones towards God.We can't do that if we hang and try to pull people toward God,who's already save.
Having someone play for your church who's not save,will be good. Because now you have someone who's not save to help find God.
That's one of our goals and Christians,the Holy Sprrit will do the rest.
Way to help pull them toward God is this.
We should Pray before we play anything,always. Make rule each member will lead a prayer,let this person Lead some prayers or teach them to lead prayers.
The Holy Spirit will do the rest. And the Angels will dance in the streets. The devil want us to push or lock out the ones he have fathered.
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The evidence of speaking in tongues.
you might not agree with me and will probably get mad and fight with me on this for a while, but i believe that this thing called speaking in tongues as it is commonly known in the "black" church is not an edvidence of the holy spirit.
Now i'm not saying that anyone is going to hell or is lost for "speaking in tongues" as we say it now, but i think that people have it mixed up a bit.
There IS such a thing as the gift of speaking in tongues there is absolutely no doubt about that, but right after that scripture in the bible it says that there is someone that can interprit that as well. Like when the disciples went out and preached to the nations. They were speaking the message, and each differnt nation heard that message in their own native language There's no interpretation to what people are doing now-a-days. Albeit you could set a standard that such and such means such and such and you've thus created a language, but there's no such thing right now.
I could continue, but this probably isn't the right place to go to deap into it.
If you want to chat hit me up on IM or pm or whatever.
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Great question... Children are santified by a believing parent. However, if any teens, in my ministry are not living right, I disuade them from participation in service, that would consist of them serving. Day Care, Choir, Instruments, etc. They also have to attend and participate in Teen services.
To speak on the Evidence being speaking in tongues, did you know there are tribes in Africa, and South America, that are not Christian yet speak in tongues during Christian activities. I said this to say... Tongues can be imitated.
Now, I wholeheartedly believe in "Speaking in Tongues" is a gift of the Spirit that requires, interpretation like jeremyr said.. The phenom is God speaking through a vessel in a unknown tongue, that must be interpreted so the body of Christ can be edified.
Their are also two other forms of tongues according to the Bible. There is "Glossa" which is God giving a person the ability to speak another language that they had not prior spoken. Ofcourse in this instance there is no interpretation necessary. That's like if I got off a plane in Russia, and began to preach fluent Russian.
Then there is what is called "Praying in Tongues" Paul, says in this instance the believer is speaking mysteries to God. It is the believers spirit, praying to God, and edifying the believer. The believer is making utterances, even they don't understand.
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I believe that the youth issue can be summed up like this:
When I was a child , I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1 Cor 13:11
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Prov 22:6
It is the responsibility of the saved parent to train the children so that they can be saved. This is not limited to just bible study but the workings of the church as well as music and song.
However, as in most facets of life we do not hold the child responsible but the parent. That is until the child is old enough to assume said responsibility.
So I would say let them play and sing because we know that they are but innocent children.
This is totally different some one who is working in the ministry but has not met the savior that they are to minister for. Remember the anointing comes from the anointed one Christ.
Please keep in mind that music in church is not for the pleasure of the listener’s ear. (That’s Entertainment)
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LowBass
That's great in theory... but the dividing line in this post, is "How a person views the musicians position"
One side is saying there is no harm in playing music. The Other side saying, its more than just playing music, it is ministering to God, and his people. If the latter is true, then you can see why some might have an issue with it. If the former is true, then why not let non-christians Preach, Teach, Count the Offering, be a Deacon board, Usher, and Prophecy. The Bible speaks of the qualifications to be a deacon, and a Bishop. It doesn't spell out in so certain terms other positions, like Drummer, Bass Guitarist, Hammond player, even if it did, we would proably still be having this discussion. :-\
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Torch7 well said…..
I am somewhat concerned that this topic is starting to morph in to a never ending theological debate but If you don’t mind I will add just a little more
Wow the speaking in tongues piece as evidence of the Holy Ghost is a totally different thing form what Paul was speaking on in Corinthians. The gift of tongues was not given on the day of Pentecost the gift of the Holy Ghost was. Now with that in mind it takes the Holy Ghost for the gifts “of the spirit” to be in place.
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Sorry thought I provided scripture about the kids... but laj528 is right.
Take a look at 1 Corinthians 7:14 -- The context is talking about a unbelieving spouse santified by a believing spouse.
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
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Wow, laj528
We are posted almost simultaneously... Yes I think this post is gonna enter unchartered water shortly.
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Then there is what is called "Praying in Tongues" Paul, says in this instance the believer is speaking mysteries to God. It is the believers spirit, praying to God, and edifying the believer. The believer is making utterances, even they don't understand.
can you shoot me a scripture on this? I like having references :) I know paul speaks of praying in tongues, but i'd like to read the context in which he's speaking.
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No doubt Jeremyr... give me a sec...
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If I may.
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Cor 14:2
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:26
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laj528 on point again... Sorry for the delay... preppin' dinner for the younguns, in mommies absence. ;)
Here is what I was posting.
1 Cor. 12:10;30
Paul is breaking down the diversities of Gifts, but one Spirit. This type of tongue is not given to every believer; needs interpretation
1 Cor. 14:2 Paul begins to speak of another type of tongue, that cannot be interpreted. He refers to it as an unknown tongue.
1 Cor. 14:2-4
V. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Since he is speaking to God, this is prayer... that edifies. (1 Cor. 14:4)
The other type is speaking in other languages which we see on the day of pentecost. Acts 2:4. (see also paul in 1 Cor. speaks of "I speak in tongues of "Men" and "angels"
Also note, that tongues are a sign for unbelievers
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Also note, that tongues are a sign for unbelievers
1Cor 11:27
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
I found that one pretty interesting.
1Cor 11:33
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
I bring up 1 Cor 11:33 to prove a point. I'm going to say it... yall ready?? Just because it's in the bible doesn't mean that it's right. There's Ceremonial law and then there's Celestial law. Ceremonial being what the people made up themselves and then the laws that God gave the people (i.e the 10 commandments). This one up above seems as though this was pauls own personal take of the service.
I kind of wish i had the fit to speak in tongues in prayer. Well we can't have it all.
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I kind of wish i had the fit to speak in tongues in prayer. Well we can't have it all.
Is that supposed to read the gift, I believe that every believer can have access to praying in tongues (Praying in the Spirit).... Begin to pray for it if you would like to be able to utilize such a powerful blessing.
Ephesians 6:18, and Jude 1:20
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I see that this thread is alive and well.
So I have had to do some reading since my last post. Seems to be somewhat controversial with the various opinions.Like mr.dj I was in the church as a youth watching and waiting for the opportunity to play, but somehow even at 7 I knew to have a reverence for God, and not to play with God, and that it was serious, although I didn't understand the plan of salvation at that time, I was being taught the fear of the Lord.
Now this thread started out by cordney asking the question and I quote "I wanted to know how others felt about musicians playing and not being saved"
What i am hearing is that some of you were playing prior to salvation and hopefully you came into the fold in the process.Now 1 John 4:1 says: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
This subject is not as complecated as it seems. Try the spirit by the spirit, motives, agenda's, hang ups and habits can be spiritually discerned. Unfortunatelythat is a gift that has left the church. I live in LA there are so many phenominal players coming through looking for a check, paying a musician is not the problem. However, some of these people show up for rehearsals play for services, yet while the word goes forth they got their eye on some girl or some guy because we have these talented people who have same sex preferences sometimes they can be found outside. This type of individual is not thinking about salvation, although for spiritual correctness they will claim it. I believe this is what the original post was addressing. Someone has to take responsibility and stand up on these issues 1 Peter 4:17 speaks loud and clear "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
We call it shedin' but it use to be the music ministry, but now it's been reduced to skillful playing by talented compromising people. If we the body of Christ continue to to allow such compromise we will be the one that will be saying Lord, Lord, I played skillfully in your name! he will say depart from me you workers of iniquity I know you not. My apologies to anyone who is offended by my opinion, but as a musician who has played in church over the last 27 years and more so as a Pastor over the last 9, I refuse to pay some because the are talented, gifted, or the best at what they do, not when people souls are at stake. Down through the years I have seen homosexuals leading Praise & Worship flaming, I have seen them playing the keys off the piano. I have seen chior directors getting ladies, in the chior, yes ladies more than one pregnant. So forgive my harshness, but God is going to hold someone accountable. Now let me conclude with this, We as musicians need to understand this thing we call "Worship" and the role we play in the presentation of it first to God and secondly before God's people, it needs to be affective not impressive, it needs to be done with skill but also with power(and I not talking watts) one word comes to mind anointed. Hopefully we can agree that someone can be gifted, talented and skillful and lack the anointing. And the yoke is destroyed and the burden removed because of the anointing. So lets focus on the purpose of what we are doing. Would I invite an unsaved person to play in our ministry, certainly, as point of motivation as a jester of love and fellowship, but ever week, on a regular basis? That individual and I will have some serious diaglog together before that could happen. I will do my best to help that person understand that playing music is as much of a ministry as me preaching. That a lifestyle and the anointing earmark your effectiveness, this will take your gift to a new dimension of soul and spirit one that will cut the calleous foreskin from the heart of God's people that will prepare them to receive the engrafted word of God.
Now if they are will to take the jorney into this dimenstion of soul and spirit, I am prepared to usher them there through the coridors of time.
God can't use your best if He doesn't have all of you. Why do we call it "Worship Service"? I read somewhere, perhaps it was in the bible, that "true worshippers must worship Him in Spirit and in truth".
Maybe we should be honest and call it "Anybody Can Come And Play Shedin' Service"
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Now if they are will to take the jorney into this dimenstion of soul and spirit, I am prepared to usher them there through the coridors of time.
Well put!!!
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Gospaul,
Everything you said was on point.. I wanted to redirect the thread to when some posted about the holy spirit. One person mentioned justification and santification. Justification comes from the word justice. God got justice for the sins of humanity through Jesus dying on the cross. We became just with this process which equals the word juststification.
Sanctification comes from the root word Sanctuary. WE have heard the song Lord Prepare me to be a sanctuary. Well this my friends is what Sancticfication really is. God coming in on the inside to dwell in sanctuaries not made with hands!!! The holy spirit is to be that in dwelling prescence in addition to being the sign to unbelievers that God exist.
As the Pastors have stated the gift and the annointing is totally different. When a person is just under their gift many different spirits can go out. The same thing is at stake when a believer may be in a different place spiritually. Wickedness is what allows most pastors to allow the types of characters that Gospaul mentioned to still be apart these ministries. If the pastor is freaking to then how can he say anything to the musicians?
He ain't gonna mess with that offering either so theres another issue. The love of money is the root of all evil
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The evidence of speaking in tongues.
Is there any evidence/reference of Christ speaking in tounges? Was he not filled at the time of his baptism?
What about all of those baptised by JTB prior to Christ? Were they not filled as well?
Not trying to be cynical or arguementative, but it's my belief that there is a confusion between being filled with the Holy Spirit and one of the manifestations thereof. The Holy Spirit can manifest in many ways, can it not?
Just as there is confusion of this matter, there is confusion between receiving salvation, sanctification and the annointing.
NOTE: this posting utilizing this quote is not intended just for the poster quoted, but to the forum as a whole.
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Good point Billy Low. I just wanted to add for Theological sake, that those who were baptised by JTB, were not filled, with the Spirit. Prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, the redemptive work had not been done. The prior baptism was for an outward professionof repentance. Sin had not yet been forgiven though.
Furious, is also right.
We are Justified through Christs death, and we are Saved, through sanctification(set apart for God's purpose), or made holy. The greek means to make holy. The word declares, "Be ye Holy for I am Holy" Another word we use is "SAINT" which means "HOLY ONES" We should cease to say as believers/saints, "I ain't trying to be all holy", well if your a born again believer, your salvation fixed that "God can't dwell in any place that is not HOLY"... Sorry I got side tracked...
Sanctuary is the place where God dwells, and he will use. I know this will cause debate, but It's hard for me to believe God will use an "unholy" vessel, when there are willing "holy" vessels. I know the argument is coming well he used a Donkey, or he uses who he will. It will be hard for you to find this occuring in the dispensation of the new covenant. Prior to the new covenant, God never indwelled humans, he would come upon them, influence them, be with them, but never set up residence inside of them.
A writer once wrote, SANCTIFICATION is applied, JUSTIFICATION. Sanctification is a process, that the believer walks out, until the day of redemption.
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so this is just me thinking out loud, but how are you suppose to pray to God in a language you don't know? I mean you do'tknow what you're saying, so how exactly does that work? For all you know you could be cursing God.... someone educate me on this.
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The concept Jeremyr...
The concept is you have a born again, spirit, born in the image of God, and incapable of sinning, dwelling on the inside. Your spirit fellowships with the Spirit of God resident on the inside.
So you don't have to worry about sinning, against God while praying in the Spirit. The Soul of a man might do it, but the Spirit cannot.
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The concept Jeremyr...
The concept is you have a born again, spirit, born in the image of God, and incapable of sinning, dwelling on the inside. Your spirit fellowships with the Spirit of God resident on the inside.
So you don't have to worry about sinning, against God while praying in the Spirit. The Soul of a man might do it, but the Spirit cannot.
I know i'm going off topic from the original topic, but this is something i've always wondered about.
So did this whole speaking in tongues thing start with paul when he told the people in 1 Corinthians?
i'm not talking about speaking in a different language, but speaking in a language you cannot understand? Anyone ever think that he may have been using a metaphor >
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It doesn't sound much like a metaphor. He was specifically talking against the Corinthians placing too high a priority on the gift,
thus the reason he wrote, on the gift, describing what it was, and saying he would much rather they edify the Church then themselves
and if they didn't have LOVE, then why bother.... ofcourse that was a loose paraphrase.
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Sorry, but this is a long reply...
Good point Billy Low. I just wanted to add for Theological sake, that those who were baptised by JTB, were not filled, with the Spirit. Prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, the redemptive work had not been done. The prior baptism was for an outward professionof repentance. Sin had not yet been forgiven though.
Even though the work had not been complete those who followed John were believers in the fact that Christ was and is the Messiah as promised in earlier prophesy. Does the word not tell use that confession with the mouth that Christ is Lord brings about salvation?
We are Justified through Christs death, and we are Saved, through sanctification(set apart for God's purpose), or made holy. The greek means to make holy. The word declares, "Be ye Holy for I am Holy" Another word we use is "SAINT" which means "HOLY ONES" We should cease to say as believers/saints, "I ain't trying to be all holy", well if your a born again believer, your salvation fixed that "God can't dwell in any place that is not HOLY"... Sorry I got side tracked...
Sanctuary is the place where God dwells, and he will use. I know this will cause debate, but It's hard for me to believe God will use an "unholy" vessel, when there are willing "holy" vessels. I know the argument is coming well he used a Donkey, or he uses who he will. It will be hard for you to find this occuring in the dispensation of the new covenant. Prior to the new covenant, God never indwelled humans, he would come upon them, influence them, be with them, but never set up residence inside of them.
A writer once wrote, SANCTIFICATION is applied, JUSTIFICATION. Sanctification is a process, that the believer walks out, until the day of redemption.
I do understand your point, as well as the points of others. This is my $0.02...
Yes there should be order within the House, however, we must be careful as whom man deems to be saved, holy, sanctified, annointed. Man has no Heaven nor Hell to place the souls of others. The shepard must truley know his sheep. The shepard must also not cast his own judgement, but do as is directed by the Spirit directs in dealing with the sheep.
Often times we cast labels without understanding the contents of the vessel. We also tend to ignore that which is blatently obvious because that outer label, not the content, may fit in to catagories pre selected by man. Even the sanctified and annointed can fall short of perfection. One that may not yet be sanctified may be in the process of cleanseing.
On this topic as a whole, I would like to point out LUKE 18:10-14
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Even though the work had not been complete those who followed John were believers in the fact that Christ was and is the Messiah as promised in earlier prophesy. Does the word not tell use that confession with the mouth that Christ is Lord brings about salvation?
Not to prolong the discussion, but we are only saved, by grace through faith, in Jesus Crucifixion. It is his blood that, brings salvation. We confess only what we know in our hearts to be true, and saying "Jesus is Lord" is not a confession, b/c even demons tremble at the name. When the scriptures speak of this confession, it means our heart is aligned and we think Jesus, is LORD (Boss) and are willing to do what he says. Lest I get of topic. The Spirit of God was not given until, the day of pentecost. John's baptism was not a confession that Jesus was Lord, but that they should repent because the Kingdom of God was approaching. Even John asked when imprisoned, "Are you the one, or should I seek another."
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I never refuted, that one may be in the sanctification process, I never said, we don't fall short of perfection. That is the very reason that I wrote what I wrote. I never questioned anyones salvation. I am talking about ministering before the body.
My point is if you can't portray Christianity in a positive light, then you shouldn't minister. If a white man walked into your office, with highwater paints, and suspenders, Coke Bottle glasses, he weighed 125lbs, and had an asthma inhaler in his hand, and said he was the toughest Gang banger in the roughest hood in your city... You would look confounded. Is he incapable of becoming a gangster? Could he currently be a Gangster? Would you pass judgement based upon what you see?
Or how about a Black Man, saying he was a KKK member?
You would probably demand to see some proof, or laugh them off, as crazy. If either one of them went to that specific group of people they claimed to be, and said, show me some respect I am one of you, they would not believe them either.
I know this post probably comes across as self righteous, but that is far from the intent. As a minister of the Gospel, one of my charges is to challenge Christians, to pursue a closer walk with God.
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Hey Torch7,
I hope I'm not coming off too confrontational, because that is truely not my intent! If I offend any who read my post, I ask humbly for your forgiveness :) I say all things in this text to my bretheren with the love of my Father.
I see that in some areas of this discussion we are actually agreeing, how ever we won't be forded the oppertunity to come to this on this forum (it would be too overwhelming). Yes I agree that we need to posses the qualities of whom we follow, both inwardly and outwardly. In doing so, this is the ultimate expression of worship one can exibit.
My largest concern was that many are judged to be worthy or unworthy by man unjustly. There are many warnings and examples of this in the Bible, which I would have loved to go in depth, but wont! People may say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. Not always so. It may do the former and have the tail of a beaver that one does not see immediately, thus making it a platypus!
For sake of brevity, I think that moving forward, if we all followed the following text, this discussion would not be needed.
1 Cor. 27-34
27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
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Billy Low,
There is no offense taken, no need to apologize. I do think we may be caught up in semantics, I wholeheartedly see your point, about being "worthy" or "unworthy". However the initial question I feel, gave us a dividing line. So I wasn't speaking in regard to HOLY, UNHOLY, being SAVED = HOLY; NOT SAVED = UNHOLY. I hope this clarifies my position.
The initial question did not leave room for speculation, in my mind, but if I understood it correctly, my assumption, like I stated earlier, is that the person(s) in question are unapologetically not Christian. Who enjoy playing in Church, yet have not yielded their lives to Christ. To those I would say, No you cannot play with my musicians.
Professing Christians, is a whole nother story. (Which I stated in an earlier post, I didn't much wanna touch.) But at Our Church, and if I were ever given the responsibility to Pastor a church. There is a selectivity to the musicians & praise singers. We've moved away from the shore and drifted with this discussion, but if we look in relation to the initial post, then maybe we can tie all these things together. I am a firm believer that my what is done in secret will eventually be brought to the light, so one can only, hide true motives for so long, and once it came to the light, I would ask the person in position to repent, or lose position. If it sounds harsh I apologize, but co-signing with someones sin makes me a partaker.
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I meant to say:
So I was speaking in regard to HOLY, UNHOLY, being SAVED = HOLY; NOT SAVED = UNHOLY. I hope this clarifies my position.
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Ironically entertainment draws numbers and numbers equal dollars. Dollars equal the ability to build and provide programs or services to the community. The inherent problem with this is that we begin to rely on carnal means to replicate the works of God. If this trend is allowed to persist the anointing may be totally replaced by skill, ability and sheer entertainment.
I agree in all aspects. This is not just limited to the Music Ministry, but in ALL Ministries. Would that refer to "having a form of Godliness yet denying..." uh, I better quit. ::)
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So I wasn't speaking in regard to HOLY, UNHOLY, being SAVED = HOLY; NOT SAVED = UNHOLY. I hope this clarifies my position.
CLARIFIED! :)
The initial question did not leave room for speculation, in my mind, but if I understood it correctly, my assumption, like I stated earlier, is that the person(s) in question are unapologetically not Christian. Who enjoy playing in Church, yet have not yielded their lives to Christ. To those I would say, No you cannot play with my musicians.
AGREED :)
Professing Christians, is a whole nother story.
AGREED, AND DON'T ME STARTED AGAIN (This was partly my position in my posting)!:)
I am a firm believer that my what is done in secret will eventually be brought to the light, so one can only, hide true motives for so long, and once it came to the light, I would ask the person in position to repent, or lose position. If it sounds harsh I apologize, but co-signing with someones sin makes me a partaker.
No harshness there! It is what it is! :)
I guess I have a tender spot for this discussion. I have seen too many led astray or misguided by improper use of terminolgy in theology, or by folks leaning unto their own understanding. Not to say that that is the case here! ;D
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Amen... I have to say that has been one of the most pleasant, discussions with another believer, I have had on the internet. ;)
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YES LAWD!!!
This discussion has been a rejuvination of sorts for me! :)
(A brova is running from his calling...if you know what I mean)
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:o I see...
well, if I can offer any advise from a former "runner", stay away from the ocean... folks have been known to end up in the belly of a whale. And then still had to go do what they were told.
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Billy Low and Torch7,
I see the wisdom of God in the both of you. Billy obey the call of God on your life. Torch if the lord opens the door for you to pastor I pray that you aren't sifted into the very things that you are passionate about. Often times pastors cave under the pressure of allowing people to serve in positions that probably shouldn't be serving in them. The other side of the coin could be that the sin hasn't been revealed yet.
God allowed David to be king even after the murder of Uriah. God always knows when to expose and reprove. It is up to the offender to accept the will of God in that situation. Torch we have some of the same beliefs. I indentified with your burdened for wanting to teach the true esscence of the gospel and Godly principles. The question is remaining faithful until God opens those doors..
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Thanks Furious.
I am blessed and fortunate, to be a part of a ministry, were my Pastor & Spiritual Father, allows those under his covering, to excercise their giftings, in the body.
I am in no way in a hurry to Pastor, right now my primary focus is to grow closer to Jesus.
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Now Dont Get Me wrong... Unsaved Players can Really play, But , That's juz talent and u juz know how to play... BUt... When YOure saved, It makes a Whole difference, and He can use you to play stuff You dont even know.
But I'm waitin on how I can play when I get The HOLY GHOST!!! WHew!!!!!
I know It'll be juz GOD there...
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I see the wisdom of God in the both of you. Billy obey the call of God on your life.
God Bless you! My reasons for running (while not justified)are for a whole different thread! I think I won't be running much longer, I'm running out of breath! :D
God allowed David to be king even after the murder of Uriah. God always knows when to expose and reprove. It is up to the offender to accept the will of God in that situation. Torch we have some of the same beliefs. I indentified with your burdened for wanting to teach the true esscence of the gospel and Godly principles. The question is remaining faithful until God opens those doors..
So elequently stated. You used few words to communicate what I was trying to using a lbunch (see, I aint ready yet)! ;D
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Is there any evidence/reference of Christ speaking in tounges? Was he not filled at the time of his baptism?
Just to start more dialect.
Never says that Jesus was filled…….
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove , and lighting upon him:
Matt 3:16
Dove was a sign for John the Baptist to know that he (Jesus) was the Messiah. In fact it says that he will baptize with the Holy Ghost not filled. Jesus- God-Holy Ghost all the same.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 1:33
Jesus was the Holy Ghost (spirit of God) manifested in the flesh…..
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested , that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Tim 3:16
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Well, the policy at my church is that you can only join the Ministry Team only after serving over 12 months of being a member and the only way you become a member is after baptism.
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Well, the policy at my church is that you can only join the Ministry Team only after serving over 12 months of being a member and the only way you become a member is after baptism.
That's not such a bad policy... "Lay hands on no man suddenly"
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Well, the policy at my church is that you can only join the Ministry Team only after serving over 12 months of being a member and the only way you become a member is after baptism.
I honstly wish that were the case at myh church. I would think that it would generate more musicians who are DEDICATED and ready to work.
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I honstly wish that were the case at myh church. I would think that it would generate more musicians who are DEDICATED and ready to work.
As a true musician in the military at a new base, the first day at the church that I attended I was ready to work. I also was patient because I didn't want to over step my boundries(Apologize if I misspelled anything...been a long day at work.)
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As a true musician in the military at a new base, the first day at the church that I attended I was ready to work. I also was patient because I didn't want to over step my boundries(Apologize if I misspelled anything...been a long day at work.)
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Praise him Mr.DJ,
Great questions!
That is a problem if we are fooled by a false spirit…..
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:16
I believe if we have done all that we can do to be led of God and we make a mistake as soon as we find it out that we have been fooled we should repair the damage and rid the “Achan.” Joshua 7th chapter. Okay maybe not to the degree that is portrayed in the chapter but I think you know what I am saying.
By the way if we being filled with the Holy Ghost are dependant on the Holy Ghost to guide us how come we get fooled? HummmmmmmmmmmPeace
Could it be that we're human and haven't been perfected yet?
Stay Blessed
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Maybe most of you walked through the church doors with the right heart and mind. Well I didnt, and I thank the Lord to this very day that I did not have to meet man's standard to become a part His God's family. As someone already alluded to, if someone is allowed to be in the presence of those who are"saved" who knows what could or would happen. As long as they are respectful, it's not my position to say who should or should not be allowed to play an instrument in the church. I'm more concerned about who is in the pulpit and other leadership positions in the church.
Aren't we (believers) some of the most opinionated people on the face of the earth?! :)
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Well I guess since everybody else chimed in I could say my 2 cent.
First, to address the bulk of this thread on the question of " How do you know when someboday has the Holy Ghost?"
My answer is 2 fold . First you will know them by their fruits like the word says bc it is easy to be a hearer and not doer of the Word.
Second, you will know there initial infilling by speaking in other toungues....now I know this is a VERY touchy subject bc no matter what board you go to whenever this subject comes up the thread is about 10 pages long...lol. But its mostly bc a lot of ppl dont understand the situation. You are not saved bc you speak in tounges, you speak in tounges bc your saved. By that you can search the Word front to back a find evidence of this:
Act 2:38
Isa 28:11
Acts 10:45-46 (this answers the question alne bc when you ask "How did they know they were filled with the spirit?" This verse answers that.
and many more that have already been mentioned.
And to clarify what Paul said in 1 Corith 14:19, he didnt mean that speaking in tongues was irrelavant or to no use he was saying that speaking in tongues w/o interpretaion is to edify yourself, which is not bad. But if you are trying to minister to the "church" its better to speak what ppl can understand so that the whole body is edified. Tongues with interpretation is really classified with prophesy and is different than speaking in tongues in prayer with the Lord bc the interpretation edifies the whole body.
And I am not condeming anybody to hell if they dont understand this bc it is not for me to judge. All I can do is pray that you all experience this bc the gift is not just for 1 or 2 but for all of us (Acts 2:39). And I know that it is real bc I have it and have experienced it 1st hand.
But to adress what the thread is really about...
I believe that every one that is involved with the music ministry should be saved bc it is just that, a ministry, so how can you be a minister and not a believer?...
I believe that when a person shows a dedication to the things of God and is ginuine, then they show be ushered in...How long that takes? Is up to God and that person but I dont believe that is right to say that you have to be here x amount of months before participating (talking about new converts) bc taking part in the things of God can be a huge factor in that person developing in the things of God. The key thing to remember is that ultimately, we want to glorify the Lord...lets not make it rocket science...
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Posted by: BassAddict
Insert Quote
Well I guess since everybody else chimed in I could say my 2 cent.
First, to address the bulk of this thread on the question of " How do you know when someboday has the Holy Ghost?"
My answer is 2 fold . First you will know them by their fruits like the word says bc it is easy to be a hearer and not doer of the Word.
Second, you will know there initial infilling by speaking in other toungues....now I know this is a VERY touchy subject bc no matter what board you go to whenever this subject comes up the thread is about 10 pages long...lol. But its mostly bc a lot of ppl dont understand the situation. You are not saved bc you speak in tounges, you speak in tounges bc your saved. By that you can search the Word front to back a find evidence of this:
Act 2:38
Isa 28:11
Acts 10:45-46 (this answers the question alne bc when you ask "How did they know they were filled with the spirit?" This verse answers that.
and many more that have already been mentioned.
And to clarify what Paul said in 1 Corith 14:19, he didnt mean that speaking in tongues was irrelavant or to no use he was saying that speaking in tongues w/o interpretaion is to edify yourself, which is not bad. But if you are trying to minister to the "church" its better to speak what ppl can understand so that the whole body is edified. Tongues with interpretation is really classified with prophesy and is different than speaking in tongues in prayer with the Lord bc the interpretation edifies the whole body.
And I am not condeming anybody to hell if they dont understand this bc it is not for me to judge. All I can do is pray that you all experience this bc the gift is not just for 1 or 2 but for all of us (Acts 2:39). And I know that it is real bc I have it and have experienced it 1st hand.
But to adress what the thread is really about...
I believe that every one that is involved with the music ministry should be saved bc it is just that, a ministry, so how can you be a minister and not a believer?...
I believe that when a person shows a dedication to the things of God and is ginuine, then they show be ushered in...How long that takes? Is up to God and that person but I dont believe that is right to say that you have to be here x amount of months before participating (talking about new converts) bc taking part in the things of God can be a huge factor in that person developing in the things of God. The key thing to remember is that ultimately, we want to glorify the Lord...lets not make it rocket science...
Well said!
Marvel not you must be born again......!