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Main => Gospel Music Lounge => Topic started by: baptistchurchman on January 01, 2007, 06:53:17 PM
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I kinda came up with this topic after reading some of the posts in the "what's the beef" topic. It kinda made me think of times when people try to persuade others to join their church even after hearing the person say they have a church home, and hearing them say that they are very satisfied with where they are and how they are growing under the ministry they are currently under. Then I hear people reply back saying, "yeah I know you have a church home, but you would enjoy my church so much better" or "yeah I know you have a church home but my pastor is so awsome and I believe if you just came to hear him you wouldn't want to go back over there where you go". ......
It kind of makes me feel like a person is worshipping their pastor and church when they do this. I wanted to know how some fo you all feel about this same practice. My pastor calls it sheep hustling, trying to steal other pastor's sheep. He says we need to be glad that the person is saved and going to church. I also feel like this is why some folks don't have a church home. We spend so much time recruiting the folks that's already saved and have a church home, until we end up neglecting the unsaved and unchurched.
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I kinda came up with this topic after reading some of the posts in the "what's the beef" topic. It kinda made me think of times when people try to persuade others to join their church even after hearing the person say they have a church home, and hearing them say that they are very satisfied with where they are and how they are growing under the ministry they are currently under. Then I hear people reply back saying, "yeah I know you have a church home, but you would enjoy my church so much better" or "yeah I know you have a church home but my pastor is so awsome and I believe if you just came to hear him you wouldn't want to go back over there where you go". ......
It kind of makes me feel like a person is worshipping their pastor and church when they do this. I wanted to know how some fo you all feel about this same practice. My pastor calls it sheep hustling, trying to steal other pastor's sheep. He says we need to be glad that the person is saved and going to church. I also feel like this is why some folks don't have a church home. We spend so much time recruiting the folks that's already saved and have a church home, until we end up neglecting the unsaved and unchurched.
So you've been to North Carolina?
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Doubles22
I think he's visited my old church in NC. ;D
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I just thought it was funny and interesting because when I first moved to Raleigh, it didn't matter where I went. It was like people knew that I was new in town and probably didn't have a church home. If they met me at a restaurant, the mall, Wal-Mart, or whereever, they asked if I had a church home and invited me to their church that Sunday. Some people even handed out cards. I had never experienced so much church recruiting before. I see nothing wrong with simple recruiting but I don't think you need to go as far as saying stuff like "I think you'll like my church or my pastor better."
:D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
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All churches are guilty of this to a degree. Some are worse than others. If my statements aren't true then why do pastors open the doors of the church? Why do we see less of street ministry to sinners than we do to people who have been "churched". It can get overwhelming when you are new in town because it can take some time to find the right place to worship.
Most churches are recruiting you based on an ideal and not the true purpose of us worshipping. Many people have been turned off due to our lack of wisdom and understanding of common issues. There is a group of people out there who don't wanna hear all of the popular teachings of the day. Some of these people have real struggles and issues that aren't being addressed consistently. It's a sad day...
furious
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I know of a Pastor who is a well-known sheep stealer.
I've heard other Pastors refer to him as such.
It's selfish. When you're truly into KINGDOM BUILDING, and not strictly focused on building your own personal empire, then you wouldn't try to woo a member of another church.
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So you've been to North Carolina?
He's been in my neck of the woods. Around here they are bold enough to come to your church and recruit. Guest ministers have stood in the pulpit and threw out hints to try and recruit members for a church that does not exist yet or they putting together.
BTW Doubles22...I have sister that live in Garner.
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I hear what ya'll are saying, but I also see another side of all of this.
People are not the Pastor's sheep they are God's Sheep. The pastor is the shepherd, but God owns the sheep.
There was a time that we weren't looking to move to another church. We were happy where we were. HOWEVER, a Pastor came along and invited us to his church. He wanted my husband to come on board, because my husband would be a blessing to the ministry. Again, the pastor knew we were happy where we were "planted".
After much prayiing we realized this recruitment thing was being orchestrated by God. We left the church where we were happy and joined the church that recruited us. We grew spiritually, emotionally and together by leaps and bounds---and it all started with a Pastor recruiting us. Going to that church blessed us tremendously. that move caused us to get closer to God & to do more in the area of ministering to people.
Our former Pastor got mad when we left. He felt like we were "hustled" from him. Instead of him recognizing the fact that we were growing in grace, prospering spiritually & emotionally, he choose to get mad. How selfish! He did not rejoice in our blessing. Now that's what's sad, we saw another side of him----hethought he was the one growing us---he forgot God was working through him leading us. He also forgot that we were dedicated the entire time we were at the church. So who actually was the "hustler, pimp". ---- The one who acted like he owned us.
The church is within people. They commit to a local congregation, but they are not obligated to stay there for life. God may call them somewhere else---and the method or Sovereign God chooses to move people from place to place is his will.
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Our former Pastor got mad when we left. He felt like we were "hustled" from him. Instead of him recognizing the fact that we were growing in grace, prospering spiritually & emotionally, he choose to get mad. How selfish!
How can you see the selfishness of your former Pastor, and not see the selfishness of the Pastor who "recruited" you?
The church is within people. They commit to a local congregation, but they are not obligated to stay there for life. God may call them somewhere else---and the method or Sovereign God chooses to move people from place to place is his will.
If you heard the voice of the Lord directing you to leave, and then you went to another church, that's one thing.
But you were approached while you were still a member of another church! I find that unethical. I don't fault you for leaving (because it seems you're happier where you are now), but it was dirty politics to approach a member of another church.
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I know of a Pastor who is a well-known sheep stealer.
I've heard other Pastors refer to him as such.
It's selfish. When you're truly into KINGDOM BUILDING, and not strictly focused on building your own personal empire, then you wouldn't try to woo a member of another church.
I agree. I see nothing wrong with inviting people to visit your church for a special event but so far as asking them to become a member and they have a church home no one should do that. The person should become a member because GOD is leading them to new territories or its their time to become a part of something else.
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I agree. I see nothing wrong with inviting people to visit your church for a special event but so far as asking them to become a member and they have a church home no one should do that. The person should become a member because GOD is leading them to new territories or its their time to become a part of something else.
I agree.
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How can you see the selfishness of your former Pastor, and not see the selfishness of the Pastor who "recruited" you?
The one who recruited us did not beg nor force us to come to his church. He asked. "You have not because you ask not". He was not selfish. The former Pastor, however, was only thinking about himself. He never considered that the move was a growth move and a God orgered move for us. We are not wishy washy people who are easily swayed by others. Our former Pastor was very close to us, therefore, he knew us and our character. The former Pastor knew if we left the church it was because God directed us. So instead of rejoicing, he had his own pity party---SELFISH!
If you heard the voice of the Lord directing you to leave, and then you went to another church, that's one thing.
But you were approached while you were still a member of another church! I find that unethical. I don't fault you for leaving (because it seems you're happier where you are now), but it was dirty politics to approach a member of another church.
How is that so unethical. How do you think some Pastors even began Pastoring---recruitment. How do you think so of the well-known ministries added people to their staff---RECRUITMENT! Ain't nothing wrong with it if it's God ordered. It's up to people to decided whether or not they want to leave.
I don't believe in the recruiter pressuring or continue asking a person once they have said no, but to ask---what's the big deal. You belong to God, not to your Pastor.
We thought about the possiblity of leaving our church--although we were happy. The recruiter came along and merely confirmed what we already knew was going to happen.
It's not dirty politics---it's all about Kingdom building---if a member leaves and goes to another church they are still in the Kingdom.
Bottom line---the recruiter just ask---the member makes the decision whether or not to leave. Why get mad if that member feels lead to go some where else.
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The one who recruited us did not beg nor force us to come to his church. He asked. "You have not because you ask not". He was not selfish. The former Pastor, however, was only thinking about himself.
So you don't think the recruiting Pastor was thinking about himself? As you correctly stated:
---it's all about Kingdom building---if a member leaves and goes to another church they are still in the Kingdom.
Then why even ask you to leave your church?
It just seems to me that, if Kingdom building is priority, then approaching another church's members is not an option.
How is that so unethical. How do you think some Pastors even began Pastoring---recruitment. How do you think so of the well-known ministries added people to their staff---RECRUITMENT! Ain't nothing wrong with it if it's God ordered. It's up to people to decided whether or not they want to leave.
WHOA THERE!!! There's a HUGE difference between approaching someone who's already a member of another church, and approaching someone who doesn't have a home church. If God ordered it, he would lead the person to their destination.
We thought about the possiblity of leaving our church--although we were happy. The recruiter came along and merely confirmed what we already knew was going to happen.
Which is why your former Pastor shouldn't really be angry at YOU. If you were already on your way out, then he can't really fault you!
BUT, he has every right to fault the Pastor who went behind his back and asked his members to LEAVE that assembly and join his own.
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I don't like going back and forth so I shall say this and I'm out------
You are not the Pastor's people. You are God's People. A Pastor doesn't have to ask another Pastor if it's okay to invite a member to his church. Maybe it should be a courtesy, but not a requirement. Grown folks make their own decisions.
My former Pastor was selfish. The new Pastor wasn't---because he placed no pressure on us. And once we got there, it definitely showed he wasn't thinking about himself---it was truely God ordered. That Pastor, in asking us, was being obedient to God.. So Veteran Don't twist my words!
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Veteran, you are 100% correct. I marvel at your awesome knowledge and wisdom.
No prob sweet thang. :-*
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WON'T YOU COME???????
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No prob sweet thang. :-*
I was about to say.... 'That doesn't even sound like her talking like that.'
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TheVeteran, your Comic stylings are reminiscent of a young Richard Pryor
I, too, see myself in that light.
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Is it o.k.? Yes.
Is it right or ethical? Maybe not.
Just my opinon! :)
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Is it o.k.? Yes.
Is it right or ethical? Maybe not.
Would I recruit Beyonce? Most Definitely.
You crazy man. :D :D :D
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I hear what ya'll are saying, but I also see another side of all of this.
People are not the Pastor's sheep they are God's Sheep. The pastor is the shepherd, but God owns the sheep.
There was a time that we weren't looking to move to another church. We were happy where we were. HOWEVER, a Pastor came along and invited us to his church. He wanted my husband to come on board, because my husband would be a blessing to the ministry. Again, the pastor knew we were happy where we were "planted".
After much prayiing we realized this recruitment thing was being orchestrated by God. We left the church where we were happy and joined the church that recruited us. We grew spiritually, emotionally and together by leaps and bounds---and it all started with a Pastor recruiting us. Going to that church blessed us tremendously. that move caused us to get closer to God & to do more in the area of ministering to people.
Our former Pastor got mad when we left. He felt like we were "hustled" from him. Instead of him recognizing the fact that we were growing in grace, prospering spiritually & emotionally, he choose to get mad. How selfish! He did not rejoice in our blessing. Now that's what's sad, we saw another side of him----hethought he was the one growing us---he forgot God was working through him leading us. He also forgot that we were dedicated the entire time we were at the church. So who actually was the "hustler, pimp". ---- The one who acted like he owned us.
The church is within people. They commit to a local congregation, but they are not obligated to stay there for life. God may call them somewhere else---and the method or Sovereign God chooses to move people from place to place is his will.
Now in this sense it seems like the pastor of the church in which you are referring to did NOT do anything wrong. It seems like this started as a meer invite and turned into a devine move of God. Now if a person invites you to their church to fellowship with them and then you find this is where the Holy Spirit is leading you, then that is the fault of no one. God had a devine purpose for the change. But when a person comes to you with the intention of trying to persuade you to leave the church where you are to come where they are, it leaves the impression that you think your pastor and your church is better than mine and that you think my pastor is incapable of feeding me like your pastor can. I believe that is not right........
I mean I was invited to the church where I belong to. And I was holding membership somewhere else at the time, but after being invited there I realized this is where I needed to be. So I agree with Sister T, the flock belong to God. The pastor is just the undershepard. But I also believe that there are enough unsaved and unchurched folks out here to go around that people don't have to intentionally target after folks that are fine where they are.
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I see Sister T's point. Often times Pastor's do forget who the real shepard is. The jealousy factor in this case has to be pointed out. In her case it seems to me that this Pastor extended an invitation under the direction of the holy spirit. The sister said that her and hubby grew spritually. She also said that God put them to work as well.. SO how can we judge that?
There are so many horror stories of people leaving a fellowship to soon or leaving when God tells them to so that they can grow or be used somewhere else. If God didn't ordain something the fruit will follow suit that proves otherwise. Most pastors are recruiting members so that can get that cheese... Let's call a spade a spade. There are pastors out there who make truly spiritual decisions. The cynic in me says that is few and far between.
There is a lot of jealousy and envy in ministry that most people would be shocked that is prevelant. Untimately it is up to the person and God where they worship. Pastors have a human side to.. Don't get it twisted.
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Now in this sense it seems like the pastor of the church in which you are referring to did NOT do anything wrong. It seems like this started as a meer invite and turned into a devine move of God. But when a person comes to you with the intention of trying to persuade you to leave the church where you are to come where they are, it leaves the impression that you think your pastor and your church is better than mine and that you think my pastor is incapable of feeding me like your pastor can. I believe that is not right........
Nope. He wanted them to "come on board" as Sister T stated.
There was a time that we weren't looking to move to another church. We were happy where we were. HOWEVER, a Pastor came along and invited us to his church. He wanted my husband to come on board, because my husband would be a blessing to the ministry. Again, the pastor knew we were happy where we were "planted".
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The cynic in me says.......
ALOT
:D :D :D
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low blow veteran.
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low blow veteran.
Didn't you see the smiley faces afterwards?
:D :D :D <---------------------
I'm just kiddin you man!
But if I offended you I humbly apologize nonetheless. Seriously.
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Just a thought from a young brother in christ.
Well, when person in church "A" is asked to join church "B" and they even think about or entertain the idea, then for some reason they are not getting what they need from church "A". From a higher level, if I have a sheep that is not getting everything they need from shepard "A" and they go to shepard "B" and get all they need, then I would think that was the better move. In addition, now that the sheep who are with shepard "B" are making a better connection with the lord, they might even bring others to the faith just by how they are growing themselves. If shepard "B" never asked then those sheep would still be with shepard "A" unsatisifed, not getting what they needed and not growing.
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Just a thought from a young brother in christ.
Well, when person in church "A" is asked to join church "B" and they even think about or entertain the idea, then for some reason they are not getting what they need from church "A". From a higher level, if I have a sheep that is not getting everything they need from shepard "A" and they go to shepard "B" and get all they need, then I would think that was the better move. In addition, now that the sheep who are with shepard "B" are making a better connection with the lord, they might even bring others to the faith just by how they are growing themselves. If shepard "B" never asked then those sheep would still be with shepard "A" unsatisifed, not getting what they needed and not growing.
OR.
The person could've simply left on their own without being wooed by someone from another church trying to increase their membership. :-\
Anyone trying to convince someone to leave their home church is not using Kingdom Principles. They're trying to build their own little empire.
Note:
Correct spelling: "Shepherd" ;D
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OR.
The person could've simply left on their own without being wooed by someone from another church trying to increase their membership. :-\
Anyone trying to convince someone to leave their home church is not using Kingdom Principles. They're trying to build their own little empire.
Note:
Correct spelling: "Shepherd" ;D
Sorry for the spelling, so dependant on spell check I am just terrible.
Well, I think most people will stay if they weren't getting all they needed. Unless, something drastic happens like pictures of the devil appearing on the bulletin board or something. They would just stay and be unsatisfied. Scared to make a move or try something different that might make a world of difference in there christian walk.
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Sorry for the spelling, so dependant on spell check I am just terrible.
Well, I think most people will stay if they weren't getting all they needed. Unless, something drastic happens like pictures of the devil appearing on the bulletin board or something. They would just stay and be unsatisfied. Scared to make a move or try something different that might make a world of difference in there christian walk.
I will say this. There are those who are just church hoppers. They want to go where the happenings are. You see. I hate to hear people say, "I'm leaving church A to go to Church B because church A got mess going on". Give church B some time and they gonna have some mess too. And before you know it, you'll find yourself hopping and hopping and hopping. I am a firm believer that we shouldn't worry about the grass looking greener on the other side because if we keep watering our grass it will get back green too..........
Some people don't truly wait on God to tell them which move to make. They just go where their heart tells them to. And the Bible says we shouldnt do that because the heart is full of deciet. Not only that I also believe that sometimes we can want something so bad that we fool ourselves into believing that God wants the same thing for them.
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I will say this. There are those who are just church hoppers. They want to go where the happenings are. You see. I hate to hear people say, "I'm leaving church A to go to Church B because church A got mess going on". Give church B some time and they gonna have some mess too. And before you know it, you'll find yourself hopping and hopping and hopping. I am a firm believer that we shouldn't worry about the grass looking greener on the other side because if we keep watering our grass it will get back green too..........
Some people don't truly wait on God to tell them which move to make. They just go where their heart tells them to. And the Bible says we shouldnt do that because the heart is full of deciet. Not only that I also believe that sometimes we can want something so bad that we fool ourselves into believing that God wants the same thing for them.
I am not trying to say people are leaving because of mess. I am saying that #1) If a person does not feel satisfied with what they are getting from the shepherd of church A. The milk, meat what ever you want to call it. People will just stay because they don't want to be known as a church hopper. Your decision should not be based on what people think of you. hopping or not. It should be based on the feedback you get from praying about it. By saying "Happenings" do you mean the choir is rocking the place or do you mean the word from the pastor is speaking to your heart and you are learning things you weren't getting before? I certainly, am talking about the latter.
I undertand your belief of watering your own grass. This is also why I say people will just stay and not do anything. This can turn into a very complicated discussion. Mainly, I think because most if not all comments have some degree of merit. It hard to say what is truly right and wrong. I am a yound brother in christ and just want to get an understanding. Now, One of my good friends of mine, whom I look up too. ( Don't know if he knows it or not) would say this. "Is there any Biblical backing to what your saying? Show me some scripture to back this up" So, I ask. Is there any scripture out there that contradicts what I am thinking/saying. What about what your saying/thinking? I am not trying to put anyones ideas down, I just want to get a better understanding as I am going through a derivation of this topic as we speak.
BassFool...
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I am not trying to say people are leaving because of mess. I am saying that #1) If a person does not feel satisfied with what they are getting from the shepherd of church A. The milk, meat what ever you want to call it. People will just stay because they don't want to be known as a church hopper. Your decision should not be based on what people think of you. hopping or not. It should be based on the feedback you get from praying about it. By saying "Happenings" do you mean the choir is rocking the place or do you mean the word from the pastor is speaking to your heart and you are learning things you weren't getting before? I certainly, am talking about the latter.
I undertand your belief of watering your own grass. This is also why I say people will just stay and not do anything. This can turn into a very complicated discussion. Mainly, I think because most if not all comments have some degree of merit. It hard to say what is truly right and wrong. I am a yound brother in christ and just want to get an understanding. Now, One of my good friends of mine, whom I look up too. ( Don't know if he knows it or not) would say this. "Is there any Biblical backing to what your saying? Show me some scripture to back this up" So, I ask. Is there any scripture out there that contradicts what I am thinking/saying. What about what your saying/thinking? I am not trying to put anyones ideas down, I just want to get a better understanding as I am going through a derivation of this topic as we speak.
BassFool...
What I mean by happenings is... "I want to go to church A because everybody else in town goes there." Or, "I want to go to church A because it seems to be where all the big time folks go". you know stuff like that. or in Our church's case; our associate pastor just got his own church and a lot of our members have started going over there. Now from hearing this man preach time after time, I can see why anyone would want to go to his church. The man is just annointed. He is actually one of the greates annointed men of God that I know. However I think even he himself will find that some people left our home church to join his church because that's where everybody else seems to be going. And I think by him being a very smart man he knows that as soon as another popular church comes up or somebody over there makes them mad and don't let them sing their favorite song, they'll be hopping somewhere else.........
I just think some people make hasty moves based off of their emotions instead of really hearing GOD'S voice. And I think all of us can admit that we have made decisions that we just knew was God telling us to do something only to find that our decision was emotion driven.
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I just think some people make hasty moves based off of their emotions instead of really hearing GOD'S voice. And I think all of us can admit that we have made decisions that we just knew was God telling us to do something only to find that our decision was emotion driven.
Well said.
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I can see both sides of the coin.
Personally, I don't believe in church hopping either, but I thik that if you as a church member find another church that meets you "where you are at" then you should not feel any remorse about leaving your current church.
Sometimes if an issue arises within you church home with leadership, it becomes very difficult to receive anything because now your mind is biased. But, the bible does say not to let the sun go down on you anger ( basically settle any disputes that you have with an individual, and let bygones be bygones).
Now after that, if you still feel led to move on, then you can do so with a clean conscience.
I also don't believe I need to seek permission from my current church home to fellowship with another church, as often as I so choose. But I do believe it is important to participate in the life of my local church, and that might mean attending worship service or some other church sponsored events.
If I join another fellowship, then the same rules apply. I should be participating in the life of that local fellowship, but if you want to visit with another part of the Body of Christ, then so be it.
Bassfool, man holla back atcha boy !!
jlewis