Saxandkeys, you are correct, it has more to do with the distribution of the music. By just performaning the music, you are not violating the copyright law.Oh, okay. That makes sense.
But you are if you:
1. Peform a Kirk Franklin song and your church then sells the tape/CD. This is why alot of church are starting to cut out some of the singing from the tapes CD.
2. You can't make photocopies of the words or display them publically without a license.
3. You can't distribute BURNT CDs to chior members (everyone knew this) :)
Stuff like that. But just by singing a song, you are not. That is covered by something like the fair use by a non profit organization. Something like that.
Are you certain? I was told we couldn't sing the songs at all if they were taking an offering at the church. Putting the words on the screen is just the same as passing out the lyrics. I talked to the CCLI people myself. I was told by them that the people/churches who don't use CCLI or pay the composers directly for use of their material are illegally using the music.
If your choir is singing a concert with copyrighten material and you don't pay the songwriters, you have stolen their material and made a profit off of it.
MrSparrow
Saxandkeys, you are correct, it has more to do with the distribution of the music. By just performaning the music, you are not violating the copyright law.
But you are if you:
1. Peform a Kirk Franklin song and your church then sells the tape/CD. This is why alot of church are starting to cut out some of the singing from the tapes CD.
2. You can't make photocopies of the words or display them publically without a license.
3. You can't distribute BURNT CDs to chior members (everyone knew this) :)
Stuff like that. But just by singing a song, you are not. That is covered by something like the fair use by a non profit organization. Something like that.
Are you certain? I was told we couldn't sing the songs at all if they were taking an offering at the church. Putting the words on the screen is just the same as passing out the lyrics. I talked to the CCLI people myself. I was told by them that the people/churches who don't use CCLI or pay the composers directly for use of their material are illegally using the music.
If your choir is singing a concert with copyrighten material and you don't pay the songwriters, you have stolen their material and made a profit off of it.
MrSparrow
Is there a way that Pastor's can see this information? Is there a Pastor's forum?
MrSparrow
This has been a very enlightening thread...
NO DISRESPECT TO ALL,
but you mean to tell me we can't give praises to god because the music is copyrighted.
Sing all types of songs, and to be honest with you I don't know which song is copyright or not.
I'll aint that big anyway so it's should'nt matter. We currently dont have any visual/audio tape ministry so I don't see how that copyrighted
Ok...
You guys need to read what princessofpraise wrote about a church being fined $300,000 for copyright infringement...
Now that you know about it, see what you have to do to make sure that doesn't happen to your ministry. CCLI has a lower rate for smaller churches but smaller churches aren't excluded.
If you sing copywritten material and/or reproduce it (show the words on the screen) you must pay royalties. Every other year CCLI asks it's members to send the song lists of the material we sing so that the people who wrote Lord I Lift Your Name on High and other songs can get their small portion of royalties. IT IS "THEIR" SONG... Just because you paid for the CD doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want with the material on the CD.
MrSparrow
In actuality, if you AREN'T paying legal fees, you ARE showing disrespect to the original author of the song. In addition, you're showing disrespect to our God. :(
Now, you want to give God praises and that's GREAT. How about YOU write a song and have your church sing it or them. ;)
NO ONE is stopping anyone from giving God the praise; but the Bible is CLEAR. Matthew 22:21 states "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Be Blessed
Then what's the point on having Christian Artist record songs if we can't even play them? I don't mean record them to a CD but just play them.
Later the song "Happy Birthday to you" will have copyrights. This is just dumb, because if everyone does this then there is no point on buying CDs if you can't even play the songs in your church.
I see what you are saying, but people aren't going to pay just to play a song in church, there going to pay to record it.
If I write a song and RECORD it, then I would copyright it and wouldn't mind if people played it in church, but if they wanted to record it then yeah, pay me.
This is how you sell more CDs when people sing your songs in church. You get FREE publicity and fans and recognition and if one person liked one song, they would definitely buy your CD.
Reading really is fundamental. You can play a song in church (as long as you DON'T post the lyrics). If your P&W leader is effective, then folks will catch on to the song very quickly (and if it resonates in their spirit, well then praise the Lord) ;)
It's called the Church Copyright License. It can loose your music department from the rigid demands of the copyright law and leave you free to legally copy over 150,000 songs and hymns. Here are just some of the ways the Church Copyright License allows you to copy songs:
The biggest problem with this license is that it doesnt (for the most part) cover "Gospel" songs. Like Fried Hammond's, Kirk Franklin, H. Walker, New Breed Ect....... they need to really extend there list.
The biggest problem with this license is that it doesnt (for the most part) cover "Gospel" songs. Like Fried Hammond's, Kirk Franklin, H. Walker, New Breed Ect....... they need to really extend there list.
Fried Hammond¿!That's what you get when a freak power surge shorts out your organ.
There's my laugh for the day :D :D :D
Are you certain? I was told we couldn't sing the songs at all if they were taking an offering at the church. Putting the words on the screen is just the same as passing out the lyrics. I talked to the CCLI people myself. I was told by them that the people/churches who don't use CCLI or pay the composers directly for use of their material are illegally using the music.
If your choir is singing a concert with copyrighten material and you don't pay the songwriters, you have stolen their material and made a profit off of it.
MrSparrow
Is the church really a non-profit organization???
My church makes a HUGE profit EVERY Service...
MrSparrow
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
Is the church really a non-profit organization???
My church makes a HUGE profit EVERY Service...
MrSparrow
Ok POP, :D
How will the CCLI know that we are displaying lyrics?
My opinion about the CCLI is that what they want is dumb. We already buy the CD, DVD, Sheet Music, Song Book, and take time to learn the song. Now they want money for displaying words God inspired someone to write. That's dumb.
If this CCLI is so important then how come Fred H. or Israel H. or Juanita B. haven't made it a big deal?
Later the song "Happy Birthday to you" will have copyrights.
many not for profit organizations bring in money from donations in fact most of them
green peace gets huge corporate donations
march of dimes etc
they are all covered by not for profit laws
even concerning music
why should the church be any different
it si a not for por profit organization
whether you think they are making too much money or not
First of all, how will they know? They are like the IRS... they audit churches on a regular basis.
Also let's not forget about the ASCAP ...
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT LICENSING
1. Why should I pay for playing music in public?
We often use the expression "they're playing my song," not always remembering that while we may have emotionally adopted the song, it still legally belongs to the songwriter who created it, and the music publisher who markets it. When you use other people's property, you need to ask permission.
I know the church is a non profit organization but when you really look at the direction of the church in the last few years don't a FEW questions arise? Everything is going MEGA MEGA MEGA... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a huge church but... I'm just saying... the church CAN afford to do what's right...
MrSparrow
I feel you but what is right legally or morally
i mean lets face it if a church pulled in a million plus a month it is still a not for profit organization protectded and covered by not for profit laws
people dont keep money by giving it away
morally i dont think it right to force a church to pay for the music that they use
tithers give money
if the money is used to build community centers and medical facilities or whateve as long as they do not violate not for profit laws they are still not for profit
if there is a law allowing the use of music for not for profit events then the church is covered
the church already pays a hefty portion of the offering for music equipment
and musicians now you want them to pay for music like a radio station would
the fact of the matter the radio station has advertisers
the church has tithers
so in reality you want the people to pay for the music they hear at service twice
I think if a church chooses to support in that way fine
but you shouldnt look at a church and say you are exploiting the artist because it is because of the very ministry tat the artist is fed
new believers and old believers alike buy cd's and up here in the north where we dont hae full time gospel stations the only time we will hear this music is in church
the south have full time staitions so many artists get revenue from that venue
if the church is protected by a not for profiit clause then they are not wrong from utilizing the clause to avoid paying a fee
again you dont keep money by giving it away
you say they are paying the artist
but how do you know that that isnt part of the compromise in pursuing a misnistry instead of an entertainment career
part of ministry is tithing
well i am getting lost in my argument
but the essence is
dont be concerned by how much a church makes
not for profit is not for profit
no matter how much they make
it is the structure of the organization that makes it not for profit not the success of the organization
now if the church wants to sell cd's with the music on it that now becomes a different matter altoghether and now they do need to cough up some dough
but for the service itself
what about when the minister of music is led to do fred hammond in the middle of the service does the church become obligated to pay royalties
what about during devotion when mother smalls stands up and starts singing a shirley ceasar song and the rest of the congregation joins in
come on really
the hymn book is put out for church people to use
there is nothign on the book that says hey when you sing total praise please send royalties to such and such address
I feel the intent but it is highly uncessasary and not even legally sound
Just because a church is non-profit, doesn't make them exempt from having to have CCLI license! You aren't getting the point. You can sing a song live without worrying about copyright laws.
Opinions do not change the law. If you don't have a CCLI license, you ARE BREAKING THE LAW! It doesn't matter what your oppinion is about it. It is the law. For churches and anyone else.
You can try to justify it all you want, it doesn't change the facts.
What CHURCH hymn book has 'Total Praise' in it?????? :-\
If what you are saying is true, then does that mean that web sites such as this need to pay for ccli licenses? Are web sites such as this even eligible because they are not neccessarily 501C3. But we are certainly doing a lot of posting of chords AND LYRICS to a lot of popular music. Is the internet domain not considered a "public performance".
Also, what is the difference between the ASCAP public performance license, and the CCLI license. Seem to me like one applies to a church setting, but if you go out and do a concert at the park, then that is another set of rules altogether.
Just trying to understand completely. My church does have a ccli license, but honestly, when we do songs, we don't check to see if the artist is covered under the agreement. We just get to singing. Are you saying that you guys have a process set up to double check if the lyrics that yall are posting are actually covered under CCLI?
Jlewis
Umm...the African American Heritage Hymnal does... :)
I was speaking with my MOM at church yesterday and he said that within the Black churches most DON'T concern themselves with the CCLI License or anything else of that vain. They, too, just get to singing. So, like Diverse stated, if the law is being broken, then someone will be liable, but if not, then I don't think God is going to be so concerned about it. Again, just my humble opinion.
Um, I know that the AAHH has contemporary songs in it. What I wasn't aware of is the fact that CHURCHES were using it an actually hymnal. I thought it was just a reference tool for rehearsals and such. ;)
See, that's my basic point. I view the CCLI license kind of like insurance, you hope you never need to use it, but you have to have it "just in case".
But like most insurance policies, you probably aren't covered for EVERY situation, and you probably won't find out your coverage is lacking until you actually NEED the insurance.
Now on the AAHH, if a church started using that as one of their hymnals, would they still need a CCLI? I mean if you buy 2 copies for every pew holder, would you be in violation of lyric sharing. I assume that you would still not be able to"project" lyrics. But instead of passing them out, you have everyone reading out of the hymnal. I kind of agree with Diverse on this one. If its in the hymnal, why do you need a license?
Anyway, what got me thinking on this whole thing was when 4HG stated that most "Black Gospel" atrists were not covered under CCLi. My church bought the license for the exact reasons that POP stated. But it disturbd me to find that most of the artists we use aren't even covered. To me that was money wasted.
Off my soapbox
Jlewis
Guys our opinion has nothing to do with the LAW.
I don't like to pay taxes but I do... Why? BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW!
It's not a law that you have to have CCLI... The law does say that we have to have the author's permission to print up, store etc... songs that the author has copyrights for.
So you have two LEGAL choices...
1. Contact each and every songwriter and get their permission to pass out their lyrics and show their lyrics and sing their songs in concerts...
or
2. Get CCLI which is the best system going to protect yourself and your church from breaking copyright laws...
It's really that simple.
I don't think it's illegal to post lyrics on the internet because if that was the case all of those lyrics websites would be shut down and those website owners would be facing lawsuits...
MrSparrow
Guys our opinion has nothing to do with the LAW.
I don't like to pay taxes but I do... Why? BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW!
It's not a law that you have to have CCLI... The law does say that we have to have the author's permission to print up, store etc... songs that the author has copyrights for.
So you have two LEGAL choices...
1. Contact each and every songwriter and get their permission to pass out their lyrics and show their lyrics and sing their songs in concerts...
or
2. Get CCLI which is the best system going to protect yourself and your church from breaking copyright laws...
It's really that simple.
I don't think it's illegal to post lyrics on the internet because if that was the case all of those lyrics websites would be shut down and those website owners would be facing lawsuits...
MrSparrow
1. Contact each and every songwriter and get their permission to pass out their lyrics and show their lyrics and sing their songs in concerts...
It's really that simple.
The last time I checked
BMI music who licenses Kirk franklin, yolanda Adams, Fred Hammond, Bebe and Cece, etc etc
Were not covered publishers of CCLi nor were they covered under the Authorized catalog.
This may have changed recently as I have not checked in a while.
Also, as artists change label, they also change publisher as well. So you might get selected songs of lets say Alvin Slaughter, but you won't get his entire song history.
Not trying to say folks shouldn't get CCLi, I just don't want them to believe that once they have it, they are good for any artist under the sun.
Jlewis.
In my opinion it sounds like Mr. Sparrow is merely spamming this site on behalf of CCLI.
Okay. So my Uncle is a lawyer, and I had him do some research on this as he is a member of our church as well.
1. Just for background information. The Gaithers (some of you may know them) are the ones who got all this CRAZINESS started when they stopped at a church one Sunday morning, and the choir happened to sing one of their songs. Merely singing the song wasn't the problem, the problem was that they had copied the lyrics sheet and projected it onto the wall. THAT violated the copyright law.
So.
YOU NEED CCLI IF:
1. You project your songs/visuals onto the wall.
2. You make copies of lead sheets for musicians/praise singers etc.
3. You sing the song and record it.
4. Distribute recordings of your services.
But actually, having the CCLI license still does not allow you to record/distribute any of your services. Not just singing, but say you have 2 songs on it before an hour of preaching.. you still can't sell that tape/cd because the songs are on there. And if you dont have permission from the actual SONGWRITER you are violating copyright law.
YOU DO NOT NEED CCLI IF:
1. You sing songs out of a songbook (as the book itself is already copywrited and permissioned accordingly)
2. You sing songs w/out projecting words onto the wall. (falls under freedom of speech/expression etc as well not to mention freedom of religion :) )
3. You retype the words to a song on plain paper, and THEN distribute it to your choir as lyrics.
SO.
In conclusion.. Do we need CCLI?
In most cases its pointless. You would have to get permission from nearly every songwriter/artist you use. And then you STILL wouldnt be able to tape any of your services. If you're not making money off your 'performance' you dont need CCLI.... You can't tell me the artists haven't already made their money off of their cd's, performances, and other ways. By singing a song in church I am in no way effecting that person. And if I'm wrong, I pray that God convict me, and I'll change my view.
So Mr. Sparrows comments about following the law and such.. there are too many loopholes in these copywright 'laws' that if your church should ever need legal defense it wouldn't be hard.
A point my uncle made, you know how in school when you write a report you have to cite your sources? Well thats because you've published something.. which is copying someones work without permission. However. You can stand in the front of the whole world, and say that same quote live, and it means nothing. This applies to singing as well. Dont be afraid to worship because someone wants to charge your church a fee to do so.. this is ridiculous.
IF GOD BE FOR US, WHO IN THE WORLD CAN BE AGAINST US??
Ok, First off... I'm not spamming CCLI.
I'm going to have to check with Princess of Praise to see why the church she referenced was fined $300,000 for copywright infringements. Maybe her friend's church should have hired your uncle.
There are such things as performance royalties. Christian artists are not exempt. CCLI is attempting to fix that issue. For far too long christian artists and songwriters have been denied the access to the money that should belong to them.
If you wrote music and the mere fact that every church sings it is payment enough for you then God bless you!
These artists have needs also. I think we need balance when we look at things. We don't need to just look at our side (the church musician, minister of music) but look at their side.
There is a middle ground and currently and legally if you fall in the catagories that most of our churches with projectors fall in, we must cover ourselves.
MrSparrow
You disagree that we should cover ourselves? ?/?
I'm sure if you asked Paul Baloche (Above All, Open the Eyes of My Heart Lord etc...) or Matt Redman (How Great is Our God) whether they want that check from CCLI or not, I'm sure they would say show me the money...
Is the music that your M.O.M records listed on CCLI? I doubt it, you don't miss what you never had. I'm sure if he was getting a little royalty check in the mail he would change his position as a songwriter...
As long as you understand that I'm just trying to look out for ALL of US...
MrSparrow
Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's! It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. If the law of the land says to do it and it doesn't directly go against the word of God, we NEED to do it. I don't necessarily agree with the percentage of taxes I pay but doesn that mean I shouldn't pay them? I don't necessarily agree with all posted speed limits and traffic laws, but must I comply. This is more a question of intergrity than anything else right now. As musicians and the body of Christ, we need to always be right in the sight of God. If Jesus said to pay Ceasar than we need to ask our churches to get out their checkbook and pay the piper! Our annointing is worth more than a few dollars!
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. - Mark 12:17
I didn't say it bother, our Lord Jesus Christ did. Remeber that we are not playing for show. As musician's of the Most High God, we are called to a higher standard than someone playing on the Tonight show or a local bar. We must play by His rules and not compromise our annointing under ay circumstances. Obedience is better than sacrifice and if my Lord says "Render to Ceasear..." get out the ceckbooks because this sister WILL NOT compromise the Lord's work for any amount of money.
It doesn't matter if the government knows about our law-breaking. God sees all. I encourage everyone of you to live a life without compromise.
Most churches can afford the fees.
You guys are still debating?
Forget about it, no one is going to do it anyways. Sorry but it's true.
If we can't put up the lyrics then every gospel artist is going to go poor. Why? because there isn't a point on buying CD's no more.
We will make up our own songs.
So like I said before, IMO, CCLI is dumb and a rip off.
If your church sings songs that someone else recorded and you are not paying royalties via CCLI, you are a theif and a robber.
You can not legally display the words in public nor perfom music without paying royalties.
You really can't even show videos to your youth group or bible study group without paying royalties either. Churches must also join CVLI (Christian Video Licensing Inc). [url=http://www.cvli.com]www.cvli.com[/url] ([url]http://www.cvli.com[/url])
How do you think gospel songwriters get paid? If your church is not a member of CCLI, you can join at [url=http://www.ccli.com]www.ccli.com[/url] ([url]http://www.ccli.com[/url])
CCLI stands for Christian Copyrights Licensing Inc.
My church pays around $250 a year and we LEGALLY have access to the music that you hear and see on the radio and tv. Every three years they ask you to send them the list of the songs that you sing in worship so the people that actually wrote the songs you love to sing can get their royalty check (money for writing the song).
There are tons of benefits that go along with being a member of CCLI. There is access to thousands of songs with not just the lyrics but the chord progressions and lead sheets also (the words with the symbols for the chord progressions over them).
If you are not a member and do not plan on being a member, I pray that you realize that you are illegally stealing music and you can not play the role that you didn't know.
This is an area that our black churches definately have dropped the ball. I pray that you align yourself with the legal practices of our country regarding the music that you sing in church.
If your church can not afford to do this at the time, please refrain from singing copywritten music from the artists/songwriters that you can't afford to pay until you can.
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Please if your church is out of alignment, do the right thing and join.
MrSparrow
Your argument is juvenile. Gospel artists are NOT going to go poor, if music ministries stop posting lyrics. That's just silly. Folks will still buy CDs for their personal edification.
And, there ARE folks who register with CCLI and others like it, so to say that NO ONE will is naive and ignorant.
When it comes to conversations, cjhildren should be seen and not post. :D
Thats is NOT a type-o is it???
Ok Derek...
Do as you please.
MrSparrow
Great post.
So what do you sing at your church ?/? Are all of your songs written by you and your ministry?
My church is a member of CCLI. This was one of the first things I did once I became the Minister of Music. The worship in my church is blended. We do a little of it all. If it's HOLY, and HOT, we've done it or we will do it soon...
Ya feel me?
We do launch out into prophetic worship also...
I hope that helped.
MrSparrow
Your argument is juvenile. Gospel artists are NOT going to go poor, if music ministries stop posting lyrics. That's just silly. Folks will still buy CDs for their personal edification.
And, there ARE folks who register with CCLI and others like it, so to say that NO ONE will is naive and ignorant.
When it comes to conversations, cjhildren should be seen and not post. :D
Ok Derek...
Do as you please.
MrSparrow
Are you certain? I was told we couldn't sing the songs at all if they were taking an offering at the church. Putting the words on the screen is just the same as passing out the lyrics. I talked to the CCLI people myself. I was told by them that the people/churches who don't use CCLI or pay the composers directly for use of their material are illegally using the music.
If your choir is singing a concert with copyrighten material and you don't pay the songwriters, you have stolen their material and made a profit off of it.
MrSparrow
So what do you sing at your church ?/? Are all of your songs written by you and your ministry?
This discussion CAN'T still be going? :o :o :o :o
Like the Dr. Pepper commercial, 'be you; do what you do.'
([url]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/spec_j/newbie.jpg[/url])
Oh my! I've been gone for a few weeks and this thread is still kicking!!!!!
Amazing!
::) ;D
So if you're gonna sing the song in a concert setting, you'll need permission to sing it in public or risk getting sued like the Girls Scouts did a while back. :)
Anyway, what got me thinking on this whole thing was when 4HG stated that most "Black Gospel" atrists were not covered under CCLi. My church bought the license for the exact reasons that POP stated. But it disturbd me to find that most of the artists we use aren't even covered. To me that was money wasted.