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Main => Ministry, M.O.M, Praise Teams and Choirs => Topic started by: blkmusicman on February 20, 2007, 11:13:13 PM
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I am a choir director in my church. I need help with dealing with a situation. During the offering section our pastor likes to have a congregational song. So my musicians started playing "The Lord Is Blessing Me." Everyone was singing the same thing until one of the choir members decided to take it upon herself to strike out doing the solo part. I have spoken with this choir member about singing out by herself when the choir is singing a congregational song.
This same choir memeber has been asked not to sing while the soloist are rehearsing or while teaching parts. We can be in choir rehearsal and if someone is rehearsing their solo, she will sing the solo part real low. Even though only two or three people can hear her, it's very distracting to the choir. I have talked to this choir member about this.
This past Sunday was the straw that broke the camel's back. After 8:00 service, the choir members came to me and asked me to ask her to either sing along with the choir or be quiet. It's very distracting to just sing out when you have not been asked to sing.
I know some of you may say, "Why didn't I go to the pastor." Our pastor does not see it as a problem.
Therefore, PLEASE HELP ME...........I need some advice.
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Your answer has been given. Your pastor said he doesn't see it as a problem, therefore, it shouldn't be a problem.
Now, let me ask. Is she off-key when she sings these 'leads' during the congregational songs? During the rehearsals, is she distracting the soloists? Is it distracting to the choir or just to you? Have you asked her why she does this? Have you shared why this is bothersome to either you or the choir? Have other choir members spoken to her about this?
Just trying to get a complete picture.
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Well, the pastor has no problem with it, maybe he/she doesn't realize how much of a distraction it really is, especially if they are focusing on giving the Word assuming it comes after the offering.
She may need to hear it from someone else other than you. We often have problems with authority for whatever our reasons are. If the members who have to sit/sing around her are all annoyed, one of them, if not each may need to add to your request.
As for the automatic solo--not much to do their to avoid making a scene in service--if she strikes out--just pray she sings the song correctly and in tune!
Other than that---PRAY my friend, PRAY! God is able to move this thorn!
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First of all....
Don't get me wrong but HOW CAN A CHOIR SING A CONGREGATIONAL SONG?
?/? ?/? ?/?
Second of all...
If this young lady feels that she has a solo ministry I would release her from the choir ministry to fulfill her calling as a soloist. Translation... If she can't obey my directions, she GOTZ TA GO!
I'm curious why the Pastor would allow insubordination in your choir... I'm sure he wouldn't like it if you sang a song he doesn't like and he told you he doesn't like right before he preaches...
There's something missing from this story...
MrSparrow
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First of all....
Don't get me wrong but HOW CAN A CHOIR SING A CONGREGATIONAL SONG?
?/? ?/? ?/?
Second of all...
If this young lady feels that she has a solo ministry I would release her from the choir ministry to fulfill her calling as a soloist. Translation... If she can't obey my directions, she GOTZ TA GO!
I'm curious why the Pastor would allow insubordination in your choir... I'm sure he wouldn't like it if you sang a song he doesn't like and he told you he doesn't like right before he preaches...
There's something missing from this story...
MrSparrow
Now, you KNOW what he means, man!!! (on the first part in bold and enlarged)
Feel me on this, brother!! ;) (on the second part in bold)
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I know but I couldn't help myself...
I just don't get why this lady thinks she's the church lead singer?
MrSparrow
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Ok maybe I should not have said the choir singing a congregational song. Just mis-worded that. When the entire church is singing. Our order of service is set up this way
Processional
Call to worship
Morning Hymn
Prayer
Choral Response
Scripture Reading
Choral Response
2 choir selections
Offering
Altar Call
1 choir selection
sermon
Invitation to Dicipleship
Doxology
Benediction
During the offering, the pastor will either ask the choir to sing a song or he will start on a song of his own. He may decide to use "Praise Him" The entire church is singing the same words and phrases. Then out of no where, this choir member will sing LOUDER than anyone on the ad-lib part of Praise Him.
Well, in choir rehearsal, I have told her to please be quiet and let the soloist learn their part. This individual sings soprano. After I have taught the soprano part and alto part and while I am teaching the tenor part, she will sing the tenor part out loud with the tenors. I have asked and demanded that she not do this. She sings in two choirs at our church and she does the same thing in each choir.
Last month we did "Joy" by Kirk Franklin. While the soloist was singing "Early in the morning before the break of day......" this choir member was singing in a very low tone. Because of her placement in the choir stand she is right in front of me. I heard her, the assoc. pastor heard her, and a couple of choir members heard her. I asked her to please refrain from sining with the soloist. She frowned and stopped but then would not sing when the choir had to come back in on "Oh, Oh, Joy, Joy, In my soul." Therefore, she was caught on camera not singing.
I have had several conversations about this but they fall on deaf ears. Let me tell you what she did during one service. This particular Sunday, we did "I Still Have Joy" and "The Storm Is Almost Gone." She asked could she do the solo to "The Storm Is Almost Gone." I gave her the solo. I gave another young lady the solo to "I still have joy." During servie, the young lady who was doing the solo to "I still have joy" got so happy and spirited until she passed out and was crying and shouting because of the things she had been through. This same individual took the microphone from the young lady, moved to the very end of the row in the choir stand and continued to sing the solo to "I still have joy." Mind you, the very next song was "The Storm Is Almost Gone." I immediately stopped the song at an appropriate point and after service I had to pull this lady over to the side.
So that's the type of things I have to deal with when it comes to this particular choir member. Yes, I am praying for direction in this situation. I just wanted to know if any other choir directors had to deal with this type of problem or do you see it as a problem.
Choir members have asked her to stop doing that and she will not stop. When you talk to her she says "When the Spirit hits her she is going to sing and no one is going to stop her from singing."
Hope this sheds more light on what I am dealing with.
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If what you're saying is completely true, then I'd sit her down. Period. Cause the only other thing is to chastise her during service with the cameras rolling and all.
In the last scenario, did you still the song that she was supposed to sing? If so, bad move. I'd have done another selection. If your pastor can't see it or won't do anything about it, what about your associate pastor talking to you pastor?
Sit her down. Obedience is better than sacrifice, that's Bible. Let her know that she is out of order and God is NOT pleased and will NOT be mocked (when the Spirit hits me, my eye >:()
You could have the choir "boycott" meaning that whenever she's out of order, the choir will politely stop singing, and you can have the musician just play. :D
See what happens after that. I'm praying for you, bruh. "Show me spirits" are tough to deal with. :-\
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Thanks for your comments. I really appreciate all your feedback. Most importantly, I am asking God for direction in this matter. I will keep you posted as to what happens.
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If what you're saying is completely true, then I'd sit her down. Period. Cause the only other thing is to chastise her during service with the cameras rolling and all.
In the last scenario, did you still the song that she was supposed to sing? If so, bad move. I'd have done another selection. If your pastor can't see it or won't do anything about it, what about your associate pastor talking to you pastor?
Sit her down. Obedience is better than sacrifice, that's Bible. Let her know that she is out of order and God is NOT pleased and will NOT be mocked (when the Spirit hits me, my eye >:()
You could have the choir "boycott" meaning that whenever she's out of order, the choir will politely stop singing, and you can have the musician just play. :D
See what happens after that. I'm praying for you, bruh. "Show me spirits" are tough to deal with. :-\
I agree with most of this. I don't know about the boycotting though¿ That might be what she actually wants....
This is a very interesting situation :-\
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Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
SIT HER TAIL DOWN...
I bet she wouldn't stand up and take over your Pastor's sermon if the "SPIRIT" hit her would she?
She is OUT OF ORDER. SHE IS SEEKING ATTENTION AND IS MORE INTERESTED IN BEING SEEN AND HEARD THEN FOLLOWING.
1 Col 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
There was a bunch of confusion going on in the early church because people thought that they could just BURST OUT IN TOUNGES interupting the flow of the service because the "SPIRIT" told them to do it...
Paul said that they should hold their tounge for two good reasons, the first reason is that if there is NO ONE TO INTERPRET then are you really OUT OF ORDER. Everyone wanted to prophecy, everyone wanted to sing, everyone wanted to preach, everyone had a revelation, everyone wanted to interpret... Just like your sister that wants to sing everything... that same spirit is upon her. Check out verse 28-30 below...
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, F56 or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
This is proof positive that your beloved sister can hold her peace. If she CAN'T hold her peace then I would excuse her from serving until she could gain control of her voice again.
Rebuke and cast that spirit out bruh, that spirit she's talking about ain't so holy.
MrSparrow
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I am a choir director in my church. I need help with dealing with a situation. During the offering section our pastor likes to have a congregational song. So my musicians started playing "The Lord Is Blessing Me." Everyone was singing the same thing until one of the choir members decided to take it upon herself to strike out doing the solo part. I have spoken with this choir member about singing out by herself when the choir is singing a congregational song.
This same choir memeber has been asked not to sing while the soloist are rehearsing or while teaching parts. We can be in choir rehearsal and if someone is rehearsing their solo, she will sing the solo part real low. Even though only two or three people can hear her, it's very distracting to the choir. I have talked to this choir member about this.
This past Sunday was the straw that broke the camel's back. After 8:00 service, the choir members came to me and asked me to ask her to either sing along with the choir or be quiet. It's very distracting to just sing out when you have not been asked to sing.
I know some of you may say, "Why didn't I go to the pastor." Our pastor does not see it as a problem.
Therefore, PLEASE HELP ME...........I need some advice.
I know but I couldn't help myself...
I just don't get why this lady thinks she's the church lead singer?
AChildOfTheKing
I had the same problem with a choir member that happened to be my older sister. I asked her to stop and she did for a while. So when she started up again I had a meeting to create more rules. I put that in the rules and if you break the rule the first thing was a warning the second was being suspended for 2 weeks the third strike was released from the choir. You have to watch for differant spirits in the choir everybody don't sing to give GOD GLORY.
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What denomination is this church? There's a WHOLE LOTTA singing going on there... With all of the choral responses I would assume it's AME or Missionary Baptist but then you said congregational songs like "Praise Him" and "The Lord is Blessing Me" which threw me for a loop...
I know this is a different topic but GOOOOOOD LORD!
At my church, my choir sings for praise and worship (around 20 minutes) and then they sing an offering selection and THAT'S IT...
If I were you, I would look to establish a step team or a dance troop to take a selection or two off of your load for Sundays...
Anyway, I hope things work out...
MrSparrow
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What denomination is this church? There's a WHOLE LOTTA singing going on there... With all of the choral responses I would assume it's AME or Missionary Baptist but then you said congregational songs like "Praise Him" and "The Lord is Blessing Me" which threw me for a loop...
I know this is a different topic but GOOOOOOD LORD!
At my church, my choir sings for praise and worship (around 20 minutes) and then they sing an offering selection and THAT'S IT...
If I were you, I would look to establish a step team or a dance troop to take a selection or two off of your load for Sundays...
Anyway, I hope things work out...
MrSparrow
Wow, we think A LOT alike. ;D I don't think it's AME, though. ;)
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Yup, you got it right AME. It's our tradition.......
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Man,
I'm born and raised Missionary Baptist but I've played at COGIC, Assemblies of God, Non-denominational, AME, UMC etc...
I've been around the block a time or two...
LOL!
MrSparrow
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I don't think you answered SJon's question yet, and I too would be interested in knowing her answer on WHY she does this?
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What's up, long time LGMer and M.O.M. but first time coming to this part of LGM.
First off these are all awesome suggestions, but remember God is a God of order, and God through your pastor has given you the authority over the choir. Your pastor would not have put you in that role if he did not trust your judgement (I am assuming). So that being said, you take her aside (most important... praise in public, chastise in private) and you tell her that what she is doing is a distraction, make sure she knows that she is truly appreciate and you look to her for leadership. Her role as a choir member is to be as transparent as possible so that no one sees her but sees God through her. Not see someone who sings out of his/her place causing distraction not only in the choir but MUCH MUCH more important in the congregation. When people see confusion while they are trying to be freed from confusion, they become discouraged.
The choir member is a volunteer, whereas you should be getting paid for being the M.O.M., therefore you are held more accountable for what goes on Sunday morning therefore, let her know that. I go back to my previous statement you where given that authority and you are EXPECTED to walk in it, if you do not someone WILL come and to try to walk in your authority. I struggled with this for a long time, falling to timidity until I began to walk in my authority.
If she tries to sing up during rehearsal again I would explain her role and what is doing to the choir focus. And if it continues further as MrSparrow said "sit her tail down"
Peace!
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To quote Mr Sparrow, "SIT HER TAIL DOWN!" LOL!!!
That's tough, but I guess if she can't follow the rules, either she doesn't need to be there, or she needs to know you mean business and the choir isn't the place for everyone to do their own thing. Imagine if the WHOLE choir did this. A HOT MESS!
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To quote Mr Sparrow, "SIT HER TAIL DOWN!" LOL!!!
That's tough, but I guess if she can't follow the rules, either she doesn't need to be there, or she needs to know you mean business and the choir isn't the place for everyone to do their own thing. Imagine if the WHOLE choir did this. A HOT MESS!
EXACTLY. :-\
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As a Minister of Music, I can understand your frustration but we must remember we are leaders and on staff. This is where the teaching part comes in as part of a curriculum, discipline and other factors from your standpoint. Have you taught any discipline or etiquette to your ministry. If not, then it may be time. Remember, you can't manage people, but you can manage things. There's a two sided twist because this person may be singing from the heart and then could be singing to make way for something else they are missing in their life. Sometimes people get caught up in the church and work themselves to death in the church to fill a void they have somewhere else in their lives. But if she can sing several parts and has them correct, perhaps have her assist you in teaching parts. This is how Kevin Bond teaches you to be in working with your ministry. Use the people that have traits, or skills that can fulfill positions in your ministry to do things where you don't have to. That way all you have left to do is your music aspect.
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As a Minister of Music, I can understand your frustration but we must remember we are leaders and on staff. This is where the teaching part comes in as part of a curriculum, discipline and other factors from your standpoint. Have you taught any discipline or etiquette to your ministry. If not, then it may be time. Remember, you can't manage people, but you can manage things. There's a two sided twist because this person may be singing from the heart and then could be singing to make way for something else they are missing in their life. Sometimes people get caught up in the church and work themselves to death in the church to fill a void they have somewhere else in their lives. But if she can sing several parts and has them correct, perhaps have her assist you in teaching parts. This is how Kevin Bond teaches you to be in working with your ministry. Use the people that have traits, or skills that can fulfill positions in your ministry to do things where you don't have to. That way all you have left to do is your music aspect.
That's another option sure, but he says she is distracting. Meaning instead of helping she in bugging.
Teaching dicipline is fine but not everyone is mature, espeacially in the music ministry, to follow. :-\
Good options though.
Here is what I think: Fire her! She can't follow basic rules, she can't be in the choir.
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PRAY AND GOD WILL WORK IT OUT IF YOU LET HIM
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I have read everyone's comments and I can understand why this person is an issue in the choir. She wants to be a star from what I can tell. The choir is not the place for star search auditions. I too have dealt with insubordination and trust me you must be prayerful. But the main thing is not to let someone know they are getting under your skin. Does your choir have rules and guidelines that outline disrespectful behavior and the consequences. That's the problem with most choirs, they have no rules so when things like this happen you really don't know what to do. The next time she does it I'd let her have her solo. I' agree with the boycott let her go for it. Maybe that will give her what it is she wants. You try so hard not to lose people. Smile it's going to be fine.
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Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
SIT HER TAIL DOWN...
I bet she wouldn't stand up and take over your Pastor's sermon if the "SPIRIT" hit her would she?
She is OUT OF ORDER. SHE IS SEEKING ATTENTION AND IS MORE INTERESTED IN BEING SEEN AND HEARD THEN FOLLOWING.
1 Col 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
MrSparrow
I've had the pleasure of reading several of the responses, and am shocked at a few of them. Mr. Sparrow I agree with most of what you said however, the passage you speak of comes from 1 Cor 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." It also says in 1 Cor 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order." .. A choir promotes Unity which means oneness, you can't be one if there is any one person who stands out. That includes singing out of turn and place, rocking the wrong way and etc.. When the choir began these things should have been established which would have promoted order. Since they weren't there is no time like the present. At your next rehearsal you should present some rules already written up, with the actions that will follow if the rules aren't met and have each member sign it. If they truly are singing for the Glory of the Lord and not themselves or man then they won't have a problem signing it, if they don't sign it excuse them from the choir. Your choir should have standards because not only do they misrepresent themselves if something is foul about them but they misrepresent there church, pastor, and the kingdom of God. Many are called but few are chosen. It should be automatic that people would want to get the full Glory of God, and you can not do that by doing things indecently. Your Choir is a very strong ministry for the broken hearted, wounded, unsaved and etc... When you stand in front of people don't think that they can't see that your choir has issues because you can tell or most of us can. You can see when your not all on one accord. I apologize in advance if anything I have said was offensive to anyone, that was not my intent. I pray that you get the answers you seek. May God continue to Bless you all.
Peace, Grace, and Mercy,
Tae
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Hello,
This is the first time I have replied to a posting but this one is true issue. I have faced this situation many times at my church only to be told that the person was being led by the spirit. Apparently their own spirit and not the Spirit of God. As stated previously, God does not author confusion and all things should be done decent and in order. I would simply ask you to ask the choir member this. Is God leading you to be contrary to His will? God has directed the pastor to place you in charge and God directs you to do His will concerning the choir. So exactly how is God directing her to act of His will when it comes to the choir? He cannot be be simply put. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Also, I would say if you have written bylaws or choir rules and regulations that you remind her of them and the actions you can take concerning this situation with her. Please be blessed and allow God to lead in you in the right way.
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I've had the pleasure of reading several of the responses, and am shocked at a few of them.
Are you SHOCKED at mine? ;D
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Well, I've been MOM for the last 4-5 years (altho you couldn't tell it from my picture) I should really put a new one up. I look SO young in that one. But anyway, i'm getting off track.
I'm 22 and I've been working with our choir/praise team for quite some time, and i had a similar problem once. And the way I corrected it was this. I simply said its my way, or the highway. The church board voted me in, and with that came a certain level of trust, and even power you might say. I run the worship service and what I say goes. I figure if the pastor doesn't like it, then He has to go to the church board and get the problem taken care of. So I simply said its my way, or the highway.
The choir member involved didn't like that so he ran to the pastor and the pastor didn't like it either. But, I told him the same thing. You helped put me into this position, and you have to trust my leadership and judgment just as I have to trust yours. End of story.
After that meeting, I have never had one moments trouble with the pastor OR with any other choir members. AND the particular choir member mentioned has accepted their place in the choir and is now doing rather well.
...its something to try.
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I've been away for a while and didn't have access to a computer. Thanks for all of the responses. One must really be prayerful when working with individuals.