LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Style => Jazz => Topic started by: Marcus12 on August 12, 2007, 08:51:49 PM
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This is something that I seem to always come across. I was looking in one of the post in here just a minute ago, and I had to laugh.
My question to everyone is PLEASE EXPLAIN THE PROBLEM WITH ADDING A "DIFFERENT" STYLE OF MUSIC TO WHAT WE ARE USE TO PLAYING. It seems like some of the musicains in here are like my grandparents. They are caught up in the tradition of gospel and the way they were brought up in the church. I believe that your relationship is what's going to get you to heaven. Now when it comes to using the words jazz, rock, bluegrass, polka. Those are only words to describe (put it in a classification) the music. It doesn't make the music what it is. You have all different races. I'm "black/African-American. That is the word used to classify me. It doesn't make me who I am.
It seems like using anything other than GOSPEL MUSIC is like using a bad word. Now I'm not trying to step on anybody's toe's. But, what's the diffence between what you are playing in the church and what is being played in the world. I mean other than the obvious. I'm not saying take a secular song and make it a church song. But what I'm saying is.....If you are playing those same chords that are in a Bobby Brown song, it seems as though you should not be able to play those chords! Same thing with using jazz chords and all the other different styles of chords and music. Not all of us sit back and say, "I want my music to sound like Beyonce's chord progressions."
I'll be the first to admit. I listen to all different styles of music. A lot of people believe it's wrong and I can see how. But for me, I know what I'm listening to it for. I don't care anything for the lyrics. I just want to understand different ways of playing and sounds and so forth.
I'm going to leave this one wide open for discussin. I know there has got to be something that someone wants to say. I just want everyone to know that I still love all ya'll, I am not the type of person that takes offense or gets upset by something that someone else believes or thinks. I just hope that if I post a request, no one refuses to reply because it's "Marcus12" posting it. lol.
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Let me be the first to say Marcus, that music is an expression and we all express ourselves in different ways just as you said. I myself enjoy listening to a little of everything...as long as it's not offensive. And what I mean by offensive is, I don't listen to music with cursing or name calling or any of the like....LOL. But I see where you are coming from with this post though. Everyone is different in what they like or don't like. I enjoy playing contemporary, traditional gospel, gospel jazz, or whatever but there are some who don't. You have to overlook somethings, if you know what I mean because there are some die-hard traditionalists and thats just the way it is....feel me? ;D Let me see if you can guess how old I am.....I listen to a little Keith Sweat, Luther Vandross, Barry White, the old R Kelly, KC and JOJO, Usher, Tupak, old Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson.......bet you know how old I am now LOL :D ;D :D ;D Then again I absolutely love my Hezekiah, John P Key, Clark Sisters, Israel, Donnie MCclurkin and the like. Oh yeah I love Missy Elliot too...LOL Boy these folks sho gone think I'm crazy for this post!! :-\
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i am also black. what i ment wuz i need to know how to play Gospel songs the way how ya'll play them for example Jamal Hartwell and others i mean them fat chords
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Let me be the first to say Marcus, that music is an expression and we all express ourselves in different ways just as you said. I myself enjoy listening to a little of everything...as long as it's not offensive. And what I mean by offensive is, I don't listen to music with cursing or name calling or any of the like....LOL. But I see where you are coming from with this post though. Everyone is different in what they like or don't like. I enjoy playing contemporary, traditional gospel, gospel jazz, or whatever but there are some who don't. You have to overlook somethings, if you know what I mean because there are some die-hard traditionalists and thats just the way it is....feel me? ;D Let me see if you can guess how old I am.....I listen to a little Keith Sweat, Luther Vandross, Barry White, the old R Kelly, KC and JOJO, Usher, Tupak, old Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson.......bet you know how old I am now LOL :D ;D :D ;D Then again I absolutely love my Hezekiah, John P Key, Clark Sisters, Israel, Donnie MCclurkin and the like. Oh yeah I love Missy Elliot too...LOL Boy these folks sho gone think I'm crazy for this post!! :-\
I'm glad that you responded. And that's what I am talking about when I said I listen to all different styles of music. I don't really listen to music that has profanity and talks down about anyone or race. Because that is not something that I believe in. But as far as the music behind lyrics. I guess I have a special way to which I can sit there and listen to a whole song and not be able to tell you one word in the song, but I could tell you what key the song is played in, the different riffs and basslines and so forth. I remember one time I was playing a song at church and did a lil cut from "Deja Vu" by Beyonce. After service I had people come to me and tell me I was wrong for doing that. And my reply was why? And if you are coming at me in the sense of the music isn't right, how do you know the song and why are you listening to it?
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I'm glad that you responded. And that's what I am talking about when I said I listen to all different styles of music. I don't really listen to music that has profanity and talks down about anyone or race. Because that is not something that I believe in. But as far as the music behind lyrics. I guess I have a special way to which I can sit there and listen to a whole song and not be able to tell you one word in the song, but I could tell you what key the song is played in, the different riffs and basslines and so forth. I remember one time I was playing a song at church and did a lil cut from "Deja Vu" by Beyonce. After service I had people come to me and tell me I was wrong for doing that. And my reply was why? And if you are coming at me in the sense of the music isn't right, how do you know the song and why are you listening to it?
The problem with this argument/debate is this: If you play a chord progression from a secular song (ANY secular song) that is recognizable to the listener, then you're wrong. Why?
Because you are putting up a stumbling block for that person to be able to receive the message that HOPEFULLY their trying to listen to in your 'gospel' song. I, for one, don't appreciate my gospel sounding like Jill Scott and the like. :-\
It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.
Yea, a 6-2-5-1 is a 6-2-5-1, in theory; BUT, it's how you APPLY it that makes ALL the difference. ;)
Besides, why would you want your gospel to sound like Corrine Bailey Rae; I mean, what's the point? :-\
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Welcome to the LGM Family "kinki".....Be Blessed.
PianoWiz...
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Yea, a 6-2-5-1 is a 6-2-5-1, in theory; BUT, it's how you APPLY it that makes ALL the difference. ;)
I totally agree with you! You are basically saying the same thing that I am trying to say. Hopefully, no one thinks that I am saying take a Usher song (the music) and turn it into a gospel/church song. All I am saying is. Let's say that there is a part in a secular song that is in your opinion a nice little cut/part. And you play that part in a song that is sang in a song you do for Praise & Worship. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that.
If you know your intent and what you are using it for, where is the problem. Sure you can have people in the service that haven't accept the Lord into their lives, and are still out there in the world and listen to secular music. I don't think a musician, by playing a part from a secular song, is confusing that or those indivuals. What confuses the unsaved about the church is honestly us! There are so many different types of us. We are suppose to be one body and be in unity. "So why does this chuch allow you to where jeans, and that church says wearing jeans to church is not of God." God is not a confusing God. But WE!! make it seem like He is. People add their believes with the Word of God. And that's not right!
Someone please tell me where in the bible it says you have/should where a suit to church? These are the types of things I am referring to. I know it doesn't seem like it's on the same topic. But to me, in a way it is.
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I totally agree with you! You are basically saying the same thing that I am trying to say. Hopefully, no one thinks that I am saying take a Usher song (the music) and turn it into a gospel/church song. All I am saying is. Let's say that there is a part in a secular song that is in your opinion a nice little cut/part. And you play that part in a song that is sang in a song you do for Praise & Worship. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that.
If you know your intent and what you are using it for, where is the problem. Sure you can have people in the service that haven't accept the Lord into their lives, and are still out there in the world and listen to secular music. I don't think a musician, by playing a part from a secular song, is confusing that or those indivuals. What confuses the unsaved about the church is honestly us! There are so many different types of us. We are suppose to be one body and be in unity. "So why does this chuch allow you to where jeans, and that church says wearing jeans to church is not of God." God is not a confusing God. But WE!! make it seem like He is. People add their believes with the Word of God. And that's not right!
Someone please tell me where in the bible it says you have/should where a suit to church? These are the types of things I am referring to. I know it doesn't seem like it's on the same topic. But to me, in a way it is.
You missed this part:
It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.
Besides, why would you want your gospel to sound like Corrine Bailey Rae; I mean, what's the point? :-\
That was my point. As far as the suit thing goes, it's a different topic altogether. But, I'll say this, wearing your jeans all saggy and whatnot is NOT of God; point blank and period.
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It totally depends on the individual's convictions and the spirit of the individual, and also the song that is being played... there are some people who play Lil Jon music in church with the intent of bringing the club atmosphere in the church. They might want to get the church "crunk", so they play that type of music... and the problem with that is that if you look around the church you will often see some of the young folks doing worldly dances, because that type of music teaches them that it is okay to do that... on the other hand... It can have advantages... I played R. Kelly's "happy people" in the church during offering.. and it helped usher in the spirit of joy in the church... people were gettin excited-both young and old... people began to praise God and get happy... and no--they weren't shaking their butts or doing worldly dances, they were standing and clapping, shouting and praising God- I played the song in the right spirit- I wanted to spread joy, besides the song is not vulgar at all, nor does it have any sexually explicit or offensive lyrics. But as I stated before it depends on the individuals convictions-- some people can do it without feeling bad, and some people's conscience wont allow it. Also we must be sensitive to others in the church... If there are some in the church that are offended, and you know that they are offended, then please don't do it-- you are sewing discord among the people, and that's not what Christians are to do
The thing about music is that it has the power to evoke emotion-- It can make you cry or laugh, it can make you cheerful or depressed, it can make you angry or any other type of emotion. The spirit and feelings of an individual can be captured in a few chords or in a simple melody... there are often times where worldly musicians will play just the right notes to give a gospel artist the chills... ( I ain't the only one in here who loved the "circle of life" from the Lion King)... those very chords/melody may be exactly what the artist needs to get his message across... Believe it or not, it IS possible to listen to worldly music just because of the music and not the words... it's not possible for everybody but it is possible for many... often times, myself included, people listen to worldly music and just wish it were made for gospel-- we can even come up with the perfect lyrics, the perfect harmonies, and ideas for the song that would just blow the original song out the water!!!! So when an artist does play a bar or two of a worldly song, don't blast him/her... it may have been exactly what the musician needed to express himself/herself... and if it does offend you-- remember... you DON'T HAVE to listen to it... it may not be for you, it could be for someone else to listen to and feel the power of God!!! God Bless You!!!
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The problem with this argument/debate is this: If you play a chord progression from a secular song (ANY secular song) that is recognizable to the listener, then you're wrong. Why?
Because you are putting up a stumbling block for that person to be able to receive the message that HOPEFULLY their trying to listen to in your 'gospel' song. I, for one, don't appreciate my gospel sounding like Jill Scott and the like. :-\
It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.
Yea, a 6-2-5-1 is a 6-2-5-1, in theory; BUT, it's how you APPLY it that makes ALL the difference. ;)
Besides, why would you want your gospel to sound like Corrine Bailey Rae; I mean, what's the point? :-\
It's getting harder each day to avoid that though, because secular artists are startig to get a more gospel like feel. They're using the worship chord progressions because they help free and ease one's soul. The artist Sammie has a song called "Come With Me". Look it up. Listen to it. If that doesn't have church origins then what does?! Music is music. I may want to play some chords from Earth Wind & Fire in church or some Angie Stone or D'Angelo, but then again it's up to me to change it up enough that no one's frame of mind can slip off into the world. I you cannot label the music as "seular" the words you put to it make it that. So it's fine. Listen to R&B, some jazz, etc. You're a musician and you're listening for the musicality of the music.
Spyda
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It's getting harder each day to avoid that though, because secular artists are startig to get a more gospel like feel. They're using the worship chord progressions because they help free and ease one's soul. The artist Sammie has a song called "Come With Me". Look it up. Listen to it. If that doesn't have church origins then what does?! Music is music. I may want to play some chords from Earth Wind & Fire in church or some Angie Stone or D'Angelo, but then again it's up to me to change it up enough that no one's frame of mind can slip off into the world. I you cannot label the music as "seular" the words you put to it make it that. So it's fine. Listen to R&B, some jazz, etc. You're a musician and you're listening for the musicality of the music.
Spyda
It's amazing that in your non-paragraphed essay, you agreed AND disagreed with me at the same time. ::) ?/?
Welcome to LGM.
Why does a newbie find it necessary to come at the guy with the most posts on the board? ::) ?/?
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Welcome to the LGM Family "Spyda1989".....Be Blessed.
PianoWiz...
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haha. thank you both
Spyda
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Different views on this subject have been held literally for centuries. When the church first started using "modes" of music (supposedly they came from ancient Greece), one "mode" (the Locrican) was forbidden - the scale was considered "musica diabolo" - music of the devil.
According to his own writings, everything composed by J. S. Bach was "to the glory of God," yet Bach frequently adapted tunes heard in the local beergarden into his church music.
Technically, there is a finite (although large) number of possible progressions in a song of a certain length - a way of saying that there is not an unlimited different number of "12-bar blues" that can be done.
I personally broke over 200 secular LP records that I owned about a year after getting saved. For a time, I listened only to songs about God and praise. After some spiritual growth, especially when I began to play an instrument, I began to listen to some types of secular music again. There are some types of music that I refuse to listen to - such things as death metal, punk, gangsta rap - music that drags down a person's spirit (there is also a lot of very soothing, syrupy sounding music that has just plain got a WRONG spirit).
I play bass and synth in our church band. One of our challenges is to not let ourselves and the church get "stuck" in any tradition of man. I had the blessing 30 years ago of a trip to Israel during the Feast of Tabernacles, and was able to meet believers from over a hundred different countries - so many different styles of worship and of music. The old church hymns wouldn't still be being sung and played if they had been empty of content (though people CAN sing them just out of tradition instead of hearing the words in their spirits). Some contemporary music is great, other is not so good - kinda like eating nothing at all except Krispy Kremes. Same way for gospel music - does it bring the listener closer to the Throne of Grace or not, that is the test.
Our church has been used to introduce other churches in the regional Association to new and different styles - they hold a choral sing each year. Two years ago, we sang a-capella because the association did not want us to sing backed by our band (no other church even thought of using anything except either piano or CD track); last Sunday night, there were five churches using bands including ours. But the most important thing - our pastor reported this morning that many people from outside our church had complimented us - that the Holy Spirit was present and welcome in our singing. The high points of the sing to me were the Korean church - hearing a familiar hymn but in Korean rather than English, and the amount of change in the music of two of the more traditional churches - the power of God breaking down the traditions of man.
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It's really that simple. If I can tell that it's Stevie Wonder, John Legend, Marvin Gaye or Thelonious Monk, then it need NOT be in there.
then vets know where i am with this, so i'll keep it quiet.
but................
Peep Israel's "Who Is Like the Lord" ----Evvvverybody love israel, right?
There's a piece of Janet's "what have you done for me lately", and Joe Cocker's "woman to woman"(better knows as Tupac's "California Love")
***walks out whistling MJ's "Wanna be Startin Somethin"***
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then vets know where i am with this, so i'll keep it quiet.
but................
Peep Israel's "Who Is Like the Lord" ----Evvvverybody love israel, right?
There's a piece of Janet's "what have you done for me lately", and Joe Cocker's "woman to woman"(better knows as Tupac's "California Love")
***walks out whistling MJ's "Wanna be Startin Somethin"***
I've got you. For me, with the way Israel incorporates that Joe Cocker song, I'm NOT thinking about Joe or Tupac while I'm listening to that song. THAT'S the difference.
Honestly, it took me a minute before I recognized it. That's my WHOLE point.
There are cats who'll incorporate other songs into their playing and you can pick it up immediately and start singing the SECULAR song; it's crazy.
And, HECK YEA, everybody loves Israel. About to cop his new joint this Tuesday. ;)
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then vets know where i am with this, so i'll keep it quiet.
but................
Peep Israel's "Who Is Like the Lord" ----Evvvverybody love israel, right?
There's a piece of Janet's "what have you done for me lately", and Joe Cocker's "woman to woman"(better knows as Tupac's "California Love")
***walks out whistling MJ's "Wanna be Startin Somethin"***
EXACTLY, they also got another song where they break into the Biggie beat "Crush On You", it might the same song u talking about. I knew that beat as soon as I heard it.
Honestly, it took me a minute before I recognized it. That's my WHOLE point.
Well sjon, I reconized it instantly, does that still make it o.k.?
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Actually I dont dig it. I mean I listen to alot of diff music, but I separate what goes in to service. I dont even like when ppl do stuff like what was just mentioned. I saw a group on Youtube singing some gospel song. I say some because I cant even remember it because they took Deborah Cox's "Nobody Supposed to be Here" and redid the WHOLE thing. I hate that because I feel that if we are God's ppl, we can DEFINITELY be more creative. Same thing with Joe Pace's "Glorify-actually EWF's Thats the Way" I was like, come on mannnn. How you feel is how you feel, but I choose to keep them separated. Just because you okay with it doesnt mean everyone can deal with it.
Funny but true story: Sitting in church...service is going on...about to be PASTORIAL PRAYER. Keyboardist breaks out a familiar secular progession. Musicians groovin it, all of a sudden you hear from a pew or two back, a bunch of kids go "T shirt and my panties onnnnnnnnn". :D Funny, but you get the point.
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1st Corinthians chapter 9 ...start at vs 20...(the whole chapter make a great point but vs 20 to 23 then vs 27 hit it on the head!)
.... 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
my take on this!
Ya see the point of this scripture is that if you wanna play hip hop to get the hip hoppers then there is scripture for that!....But almost 100% of the time these clowns on instruments pretending to be ministers play their worldly repertoire with absolutely no intention to do anything but be cute and get a rise out of the carnal side of the congregation..."remember this jam!"
Let's get real hear...the scripture above says it's ok...but they are speaking to real ministries that are trying to reach real lost folks! and vs 27 tells you how careful one must be.
...very few musicians came to play at church to get anybody saved...a matter of fact if it wasnt for pay they wouldn't even come!....So they should not be playing "name that tune" at the expense of the congregations souls!
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Actually I dont dig it. I mean I listen to alot of diff music, but I separate what goes in to service. I dont even like when ppl do stuff like what was just mentioned. I saw a group on Youtube singing some gospel song. I say some because I cant even remember it because they took Deborah Cox's "Nobody Supposed to be Here" and redid the WHOLE thing. I hate that because I feel that if we are God's ppl, we can DEFINITELY be more creative. Same thing with Joe Pace's "Glorify-actually EWF's Thats the Way" I was like, come on mannnn. How you feel is how you feel, but I choose to keep them separated. Just because you okay with it doesnt mean everyone can deal with it.
Funny but true story: Sitting in church...service is going on...about to be PASTORIAL PRAYER. Keyboardist breaks out a familiar secular progession. Musicians groovin it, all of a sudden you hear from a pew or two back, a bunch of kids go "T shirt and my panties onnnnnnnnn". :D Funny, but you get the point.
AMEN!!!!
1st Corinthians chapter 9 ...start at vs 20...(the whole chapter make a great point but vs 20 to 23 then vs 27 hit it on the head!)
.... 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
my take on this!
Ya see the point of this scripture is that if you wanna play hip hop to get the hip hoppers then there is scripture for that!....But almost 100% of the time these clowns on instruments pretending to be ministers play their worldly repertoire with absolutely no intention to do anything but be cute and get a rise out of the carnal side of the congregation..."remember this jam!"
Let's get real hear...the scripture above says it's ok...but they are speaking to real ministries that are trying to reach real lost folks! and vs 27 tells you how careful one must be.
...very few musicians came to play at church to get anybody saved...a matter of fact if it wasnt for pay they wouldn't even come!....So they should not be playing "name that tune" at the expense of the congregations souls!
and AMEN, again!!! ;)
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For all you musicians who REALLY feel as though you shouldn't incorporate different styles in your play.....Do your research on tritones, and then stop playing them!
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For all you musicians who REALLY feel as though you shouldn't incorporate different styles in your play.....Do your research on tritones, and then stop playing them!
Well, tri-tones is not necessarily a style, it's just notes. Some styles use them more than others, but by themselves they are not a style.
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Well, tri-tones is not necessarily a style, it's just notes. Some styles use them more than others, but by themselves they are not a style.
Exactly. ::)
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My mistake....thanks for clearing that up. All I'm really trying to say is that according to the way a lot of people see music.....you shouldn't be playing tritones given what they mean in music.
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My mistake....thanks for clearing that up. All I'm really trying to say is that according to the way a lot of people see music.....you shouldn't be playing tritones given what they mean in music.
?/? Wha..... ?/?
They mean a way to get from one chord to another. :-\
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This is what I am basically trying to say. I hear and understand everything that everyone is saying. Don't get me wrong.....this is just a discussin. I just want to know what everyone thinks about it.
Now when it comes to music. Everyone has their own thoughts and views. And that's great (lol....unless we were all playing together). I do agree that somethings shouldn't be played in the church. But I believe that it is all based on conviction. Your conviction isn't mine and neither mine yours. God may place in your heart to not play the way I play because of He has a different plan for you. I know that God wants me to touch young souls and draw them to him. Now I don't go out and get the R. Kelly cd so that I can play he's new single so the young people can feel the music/song. No, I learn all different styles to make the young people feel more welcome. And I know that someone has a problem with that. And that's fine. But I grew up in the same church I go to now and it was beyond traditional to me. I felt at times that I didn't even want to go to church. And God opened up the older folks hearts and let them know that God is not a stand still God. He doesn't only move in traditional songs, but in other songs such as your Fred Hammonds, Tye Tribbetts, Natalie Wilsons, and so forth. God has a message for everyone.
With that said....this whole post was to find out what is wrong with playing different styles. I know that I have heard a lot of different styles of music used in gospel music. And I'm sure all of you have too! I just don't believe that there is a problem playing different styles in church. I think that a lot of you just don't prefer to listen to some of the styles and some of you just are not used by God to play some of the styles that you disagree with. (I'm not saying that you don't know how to play them or could not learn)
As long as you have a clean heart and you have a relationship with God. He will place on your heart what not to do and will convict you. I have had times where I'll be at home thinking of different ways to change up some songs and add a "secular" cut and God will tell me NO! But I don't believe that you should say that a whole style or even a lick from a song can't be played in gospel music. Could you be putting limitations on God and yourself? And that's a serious question that I would like to have opinions on.
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From what I have observed over they years "church" musicians have no idea what style really is. If you don't believe me, ask someone (or yourself) to:
Play 'Amazing Grace'
-in a blues style
-traditional jazz style
-ragtime style
-etc...
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No doubt. I definantly agree with you. But how many musicians really know styles period??? I mean, I don't know really to much about music theory, but I am learning all that I can daily. I want to know how to distinguish different styles such as blues, bluegrass, country, and all that stuff. I don't want to put myself in the box musically. I want to know all that I can to make me a better musician.
But lets say you know how to play in the style of country. What is wrong with playing a song in country style? That's my question. What is wrong with playing in jazz style? I think that some people are confusing the question.
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But I don't believe that you should say that a whole style or even a lick from a song can't be played in gospel music. Could you be putting limitations on God and yourself? And that's a serious question that I would like to have opinions on.
I want to know how to distinguish different styles such as blues, bluegrass, country, and all that stuff.
See thats when what youre asking doesnt make sense. Those are two different things. I dont see anything wrong with different "Styles" but I do see a problem with Secular "licks". You can play in a funk style without putting in the "For the Love of Money" bassline during offering. See what Im sayin? Tritone substitutions and secondary dominants have nothing to do in this sense with playing a particular well known lick. Yes to diff styles, no to the licks. IMHO of course. And how are you limiting "The CREATOR" when you choose not to use something thats already been there, which is my point. I pray that God not only anoints me, but to allow me to continue to play something new. I believe if we are sincere in wanting to bless God and ppl with our music, he will help us with us reaching out to what is being used for other "intentions".
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See thats when what youre asking doesnt make sense. Those are two different things. I dont see anything wrong with different "Styles" but I do see a problem with Secular "licks".
I agree with you....it is two different subjects. And that's what I was trying to say. Yeah, a style is a very broad spectrum. And a lick is very particular thing. And that is definantly your's and so many others opinion on taking a secular lick and adding it to a song. But just like me, I know there is a lot of men of God that have the same opinion as me. God bless you all.
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It totally depends on the intent of the individual.... Are you doing it to edify the saints or to give God the glory?
As far as "styles" go... gospel music is a mixture of various different styles... Style is nothing more than a manner in which something is presented
As far as incorporating 'secular licks" goes, that's a different story...
Let's face the facts though... why would you want to play Lil Jon (or any other well-known secular music) in church for any other reason than:
1)proving to the young people that you are still in touch with the world(We all know Romans 12:2), or by
2)proving to the older saints that you can play secular music without getting "struck by lightning"
Our music ought to get us thinking about the Lord, not bumping and grinding...
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oh, so y'all mean that the kids SHOULDNT play Jay-Z' tunes in shout music?
<and somewhere, an old jewish man sticks up his finger, going "ah, hchhah!">
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Our music ought to get us thinking about the Lord, not bumping and grinding...
And, this incapsulates our entire discussion. The job of the music, as with anything else in which we participate, should be to give God glory and edify (not entertain) the saints.
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But lets say you know how to play in the style of country. What is wrong with playing a song in country style? That's my question. What is wrong with playing in jazz style? I think that some people are confusing the question.
Actually from what you stated in your original post and though out this thread, it seems like "you" are getting the two confused because you keep referring to "secular" and not really even talking about style.
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1st Corinthians chapter 9 ...start at vs 20...(the whole chapter make a great point but vs 20 to 23 then vs 27 hit it on the head!)
.... 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
my take on this!
Ya see the point of this scripture is that if you wanna play hip hop to get the hip hoppers then there is scripture for that!....But almost 100% of the time these clowns on instruments pretending to be ministers play their worldly repertoire with absolutely no intention to do anything but be cute and get a rise out of the carnal side of the congregation..."remember this jam!"
Let's get real hear...the scripture above says it's ok...but they are speaking to real ministries that are trying to reach real lost folks! and vs 27 tells you how careful one must be.
...very few musicians came to play at church to get anybody saved...a matter of fact if it wasnt for pay they wouldn't even come!....So they should not be playing "name that tune" at the expense of the congregations souls!
whoa i needed this. i had an encounter with an older deacon of the church the other day that snatched the cords out of my motif and my amp. HE ALMOST GOT HIT FOR THAT. thank God i was able to surpress that anger and humble myself with a swiftness. he didn't like what i was playing it was some lick i can't even remember it wasn't a song though. he hit me with scriptures up and down i hit him with a bunch of common sense but i have some scripture to play his game now. thanks ;D
Spyda
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This conversation is razor sharp on all its sides because the original poster did not really clearly state what he meant or maybe he did not realize the hole he was digging for all of us here.
I strongly believe that breaking out into Brickhouse in the middle of worship should get you shot. I also believe that music is like liquid. It should be able to be poured over everyone without missing much. In other words, a true music ministry knows how to bring it home to Jesus by reaching EVERYONE and alienating NOONE.
What may be great for the twenty somethings might disrupt the sixty somethings in the congregation. If music actual gets in the way of what God is trying to do, it should be removed.
So, I guess you can ask yourself this. When you are playing a hymn and the mood takes you to do something with it that is 'fresh', ask yourself if you are Glorifying HIS name or trying to satisfy your own vanity. If what you are doing will bring people closer to Him, I say seek ye da funk. If it will otherwise, distract from the Message at hand... Use your head.
I play a few jazz services every now and again. This is different than a gospel service as the music is lighter and set up for more of a lighter sound. We do not use organ on these Sundays. Only piano, bass, drums and sax. It is a tool to refresh the congregation from perhaps their getting stale or that deer in the headlights look that happens when people do the same thing over and over. Again, it is a tool to bring people back in focus with God. We have used theater and dance for the same reasons. It refreshes the mind so that you are ready to receive God's word.
You are never on the platform for yourself...
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Different views on this subject have been held literally for centuries. When the church first started using "modes" of music (supposedly they came from ancient Greece), one "mode" (the Locrican) was forbidden - the scale was considered "musica diabolo" - music of the devil.
According to his own writings, everything composed by J. S. Bach was "to the glory of God," yet Bach frequently adapted tunes heard in the local beergarden into his church music.
Technically, there is a finite (although large) number of possible progressions in a song of a certain length - a way of saying that there is not an unlimited different number of "12-bar blues" that can be done.
I personally broke over 200 secular LP records that I owned about a year after getting saved. For a time, I listened only to songs about God and praise. After some spiritual growth, especially when I began to play an instrument, I began to listen to some types of secular music again. There are some types of music that I refuse to listen to - such things as death metal, punk, gangsta rap - music that drags down a person's spirit (there is also a lot of very soothing, syrupy sounding music that has just plain got a WRONG spirit).
I play bass and synth in our church band. One of our challenges is to not let ourselves and the church get "stuck" in any tradition of man. I had the blessing 30 years ago of a trip to Israel during the Feast of Tabernacles, and was able to meet believers from over a hundred different countries - so many different styles of worship and of music. The old church hymns wouldn't still be being sung and played if they had been empty of content (though people CAN sing them just out of tradition instead of hearing the words in their spirits). Some contemporary music is great, other is not so good - kinda like eating nothing at all except Krispy Kremes. Same way for gospel music - does it bring the listener closer to the Throne of Grace or not, that is the test.
Our church has been used to introduce other churches in the regional Association to new and different styles - they hold a choral sing each year. Two years ago, we sang a-capella because the association did not want us to sing backed by our band (no other church even thought of using anything except either piano or CD track); last Sunday night, there were five churches using bands including ours. But the most important thing - our pastor reported this morning that many people from outside our church had complimented us - that the Holy Spirit was present and welcome in our singing. The high points of the sing to me were the Korean church - hearing a familiar hymn but in Korean rather than English, and the amount of change in the music of two of the more traditional churches - the power of God breaking down the traditions of man.
That's the Holy Spirit at work IMO.
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OMG ,what a post!!
I have no further comments!! :o :D
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oh, so y'all mean that the kids SHOULDNT play Jay-Z' tunes in shout music?
<and somewhere, an old jewish man sticks up his finger, going "ah, hchhah!">
That Jay-Z shout is HOT
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That Jay-Z shout is HOT
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/asimpleno.gif?t=1199680070) ::)
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([url]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/asimpleno.gif?t=1199680070[/url]) ::)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/sjonathan02/notevenclose.gif)
JAY-Z SHOUT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR5J0RlQJ8c
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Oh snap, Bishop White has a whole new building and changed the name and errthang... LOL!!!
I haven't been there in years.
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Oh snap, Bishop White has a whole new building and changed the name and errthang... LOL!!!
I haven't been there in years.
Yeah They Doin BIG things there. I go there all the time, And I learned how to play the organ by watching his musicians. But his son is truly an awsome preacher so If your ever in town stop by on a tuesday night
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Yeah They Doin BIG things there. I go there all the time, And I learned how to play the organ by watching his musicians. But his son is truly an awsome preacher so If your ever in town stop by on a tuesday night
Who, Anthon? I thought Anthon was out in Eastern LI? Last time I went to his church, it was out near Riverhead or something... ?/?
And I know all about those Whites... grew up around them. Used to sing with Anthon in the state choir.
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Who, Anthon? I thought Anthon was out in Eastern LI? Last time I went to his church, it was out near Riverhead or something... ?/?
And I know all about those Whites... grew up around them. Used to sing with Anthon in the state choir.
Yeah Anthone preaches there on tuesday nights and on 4th sundays. He is the The Assistant Pastor, And he still Pastors Kings Chapel in South Hampton Though I've never been there
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This conversation is razor sharp on all its sides because the original poster did not really clearly state what he meant or maybe he did not realize the hole he was digging for all of us here.
I strongly believe that breaking out into Brickhouse in the middle of worship should get you shot. I also believe that music is like liquid. It should be able to be poured over everyone without missing much. In other words, a true music ministry knows how to bring it home to Jesus by reaching EVERYONE and alienating NOONE.
What may be great for the twenty somethings might disrupt the sixty somethings in the congregation. If music actual gets in the way of what God is trying to do, it should be removed.
So, I guess you can ask yourself this. When you are playing a hymn and the mood takes you to do something with it that is 'fresh', ask yourself if you are Glorifying HIS name or trying to satisfy your own vanity. If what you are doing will bring people closer to Him, I say seek ye da funk. If it will otherwise, distract from the Message at hand... Use your head.
I play a few jazz services every now and again. This is different than a gospel service as the music is lighter and set up for more of a lighter sound. We do not use organ on these Sundays. Only piano, bass, drums and sax. It is a tool to refresh the congregation from perhaps their getting stale or that deer in the headlights look that happens when people do the same thing over and over. Again, it is a tool to bring people back in focus with God. We have used theater and dance for the same reasons. It refreshes the mind so that you are ready to receive God's word.
You are never on the platform for yourself...
speak brotha!!!
Spyda
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I am going to tell it like it is:
I have been playing gospel music for over 15 yrs and I have been discourged, snapped at, and even lost music gigs.
Our Job as musician is to explore and learn different styles of any music because that is how we can grow and to capable.
Now you have some people in most churches that do not like or be afraid of change. They like things the way they are. If we don't change then we will be lost.
Now I like change and I will continue to learn different style and I don't care if the members of the church likes it or not. Because I get paid to do a job and I intend to carry out that job.
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Welcome to the LGM family "bishop424".....Be Blessed.
PianoWiz...
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I'm not taking a side (althought I have one), I have a few questions.
Does the music please GOD and edify the audience?
Is it ministry or entertainment only?
I do believe gospel music should do more than make you want to dance (not knocking dancing). It should make of think of God's in some way. Different style? Fine. The message should not change.
Since I'm from a different generation and don't care much for most "Contemporary Gospel", I went to the young folks. I asked them if the music moved them spiritually. The answer was NO. The vast majority of them told me that they listen to the beat not the words. Why?
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I am not against style differences. I am against trying to be 'hip' just to be 'hip'. If you are not getting the Power of the message across with the new 'style' you are introducing then you FAIL the entire point of playing in church for GOD. If you do not understand his point or do not care to want to understand this point then maybe you need to take a step back and re - evaluate whether of not you really should be the one up on the platform to begn with. This is not about pay or position. This is about what the One, undeniable POINT of REFERENCE that all FOCUS should be pointed toward whenwe are playing in church. Maybe the young ones are loosing touch because we, as musicians, half this same "who cares" attitude... WE SHOULD CARE!!! We ae responsible for what we do in the name of the Lord. Remember thatnext time you get into an ego driven hissy fit about wanting to take you congregation in a direction musically whether they like it or not. If they do not like it you are working AGAINST the message of God because you are in fact shutting people's very ears to the Praise we are suppose to be lifting to HIM. Do not let your own vanity slide over your eyes and cause you to lose the real reason why you go to church...
If you want a more creative outlet, start a band.
Wolf
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Based from experience: I love all types and style that what makes me grow as a musician. When I am playing for churches I have to think about the churches envoirment. If I have young people who like to sing and wants to learn Contemporary then I will teach it because it's for them. When I have older adults I would do something different for them. When you have praise worshipers I got something for them and when you have deacons who wanted to back down south I got something for them. Now do I ask myself it's it for entertainment no its for ministry because every in congeration is looking for the word. It may not be from a minster, or pastor, but be from musical stand point. If we single out any style that fit a person profile then we can lose them. Of course they will go to another church to find what they are looking for.
I can say that to it's not about the money but it about movement going to the next level and make a difference. You can't pleased eveybody because someone is going to say something about your style.
Think about this for a minute: If I hire you to minister in music, pay you the amount that you ask or that we require, and you get a complaint from a congeration about your style of playing.
I will back you up because you are doing what GOD asked you, I am glad that I hire you to do the job and you like what you do and play and create. Thats growth.
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Based on some of the replies, Kirk Franklin better run for cover with "Stomp" (sample of Funkadelic's "One Nation Under A Groove") & "Looking For You" (from Patrice Rushen's "Haven't You Heard").
RUN KIRK, RUNNN! lol 8)
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[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR5J0RlQJ8c[/url][/url]
^^^^ The music sound very cool! ^^^^
BTW, you guys don't play any latin in your church?
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^^^^ The music sound very cool! ^^^^
BTW, you guys don't play any latin in your church?
I aint been there in a minute. I need to go and get inspired.
They Can play Latin style, But they Dont during service, though they should consider it being that the are located in a latin community
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WHOA, WHOA, WHOA MARCU12 SO YOURE SAYIN WE CANT EVEN USE THE SAME CHORDS??!?? SO IF I MAKE UP A RANDOM TUNE AND IT HAS A F9, JUS LIKE IN A SECULAR SONG, CHORD IN IT, I CANT PLAY THE TUNE?? I MEAN COME ON HOW BOUT JUS BAN INSTRUMENTS IN CHURCH SO NO ONE WILL "ACCIDENTLY" PLAY A SECULAR CHORD. THERE ARE SO MANY SONGS THAT SHARE CHORDS AND PROGRESSIONS SO HOW WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO NOT USE THESE CHORDS AND PROGRESSIONS?? SO THAT MEANS SOME OF THE GOSPEL SONGS THAT WE SING, LIKE I WILL BLESS THE LORD AT ALL TIMES, SHOULD NOT BE SANG. WOW. OK FIRST OF ALL WHAT MAKES UP A SONG?? MUSIC AND WORDS, RIGHT? WHAT MAKES A SONG BAD?? IS IT THE MUSIC OR THE WORDS?? ITS THE WORDS.
GO AHEAD EVERYBODY USE ALL CHORDS. (WHEEW!) NEVER FEAR MEOISTE IS HERE!
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I aint been there in a minute. I need to go and get inspired.
They Can play Latin style, But they Dont during service, though they should consider it being that the are located in a latin community
I wasn't asking about the guys in the video. It's a question for everyone here. :)
BTW, what type of style of music is that called in the vid above from 0:12-0:30sec?
I really love it. Thanks.
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WHOA, WHOA, WHOA MARCU12 SO YOURE SAYIN WE CANT EVEN USE THE SAME CHORDS??!?? SO IF I MAKE UP A RANDOM TUNE AND IT HAS A F9, JUS LIKE IN A SECULAR SONG, CHORD IN IT, I CANT PLAY THE TUNE?? I MEAN COME ON HOW BOUT JUS BAN INSTRUMENTS IN CHURCH SO NO ONE WILL "ACCIDENTLY" PLAY A SECULAR CHORD. THERE ARE SO MANY SONGS THAT SHARE CHORDS AND PROGRESSIONS SO HOW WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO NOT USE THESE CHORDS AND PROGRESSIONS?? SO THAT MEANS SOME OF THE GOSPEL SONGS THAT WE SING, LIKE I WILL BLESS THE LORD AT ALL TIMES, SHOULD NOT BE SANG. WOW. OK FIRST OF ALL WHAT MAKES UP A SONG?? MUSIC AND WORDS, RIGHT? WHAT MAKES A SONG BAD?? IS IT THE MUSIC OR THE WORDS?? ITS THE WORDS.
GO AHEAD EVERYBODY USE ALL CHORDS. (WHEEW!) NEVER FEAR MEOISTE IS HERE!
a. Stop shouting (using all caps).
b. What makes a song bad? It's ability to take a listener on a journey. That can occur via the music OR the words.
David played his instrument, skillfully, to ease Saul when he was tormented by the demon. He didn't sing, he played. :)
Have a nice day.
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I wished some *&%
whoa i needed this. i had an encounter with an older deacon of the church the other day that snatched the cords out of my motif and my amp. HE ALMOST GOT HIT FOR THAT. thank God i was able to surpress that anger and humble myself with a swiftness. he didn't like what i was playing it was some lick i can't even remember it wasn't a song though. he hit me with scriptures up and down i hit him with a bunch of common sense but i have some scripture to play his game now. thanks ;D
Spyda
I wish some *&%$# would come and touch my rig!!He wouldn't have time to get a scripture out before those lips started swelling up!!!
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I wished some *&%I wish some *&%$# would come and touch my rig!!He wouldn't have time to get a scripture out before those lips started swelling up!!!
o_O :-X :-\ :o :'( >:( ?/?
:)
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o_O :-X :-\ :o :'( >:( ?/?
:)
I know it may seem harsh, but thass just plain disrespectful and I paid too much for somebody who has no business touching anything to be messing with stuff they cant replace........All right I wouldn't hit em.... probably. But It would be an ugly situation.